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Ar Tonelico and * nosurge discussion thread

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    • Baughn

    Baughn

    Healing-type writer
    Location
    Dublin
    Translated Material for Ar tonelico
    Translated Material for Surge Concerto
    Game (re)translations
    Language Information
    Fiction
    Here on SV:
    In the harmonious land of ponies:
    The above is woefully incomplete. Please send links.
     
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    • aquagon said:
    Writing from mobile to announce this: I'm without an internet connection for the next three weeks due to an outage damaging the telephone lines, so I won't be able to access IRC until then. I'll report back when this problem gets solved.
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    I hope it actually gets solved on schedule or before... Because that's quite a long outage as is. Hopefully this doesn't impact any of your projects around Ar Tonelico or otherwise.
     
    So, question about Ar nosurge Phase 3. Hopefully someone besides aquagon can answer this.
    Anyone got a summary of that Emotional Song Pact conversation between Casty and Ayatane?
     
    Even though I'm in mobile for now, I can still answer that: these are the lyrics to the Grand Memorial song from Ciel's 5th chapter, and Zill also chanted it during Phase 1 prior to forcing Ion to sing Class::CIEL_NOSURGE;
     
    aquagon said:
    Even though I'm in mobile for now, I can still answer that: these are the lyrics to the Grand Memorial song from Ciel's 5th chapter, and Zill also chanted it during Phase 1 prior to forcing Ion to sing Class::CIEL_NOSURGE;
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    You're alive! ...I hope everything is going well. I feel a bit guilty for only asking you questions, so if there's any way I can help, just mention it. I'm not sure what good my technical skills would be here, but I could e.g. find you a terminal server or proxy.

    I'm going to ask you a question anyway, though.

    It's my understanding that the second Ciel nosurge novel covers the time period just before Nei gets kidnapped. Aya shows up at her apartment, there are various AI mishaps, etc. etc. Well, I purchased a copy and I'm trying to learn the written language, but it's anyone's guess how many months that will take -- and that scenario happens to be the first scene in the story I'm not working on. The story then progresses into uncharted territory, with Aya watching her sister 'die' and subsequently not being believed that she hasn't... but I'll leave the plot details for later.

    So, is there a summary of what happens in those novels to be found anywhere online?
     
    I'll add two more questions about fairly late into Ar nosurge. These should be a bit easier to answer, since they don't involve linguistics.
    1. Is it ever explained how Undu has a human body in the game? Is it correct to infer that Zill brought him back as a Sharl just like she did for other Genom, but gave him the same type of Sharl body as what Nay has?
    2. How was Shurelia able to visit the Soreil without collapsing into a pile of liquids?
     
    @Baughn: Thanks for the offer, but as the Internet (and landline phone) problem was caused by some cretins ripping away and stealing the copper cables from the central to the area where I live, I don't think there's much to be done. Similarly, the time without internet for me is indefinite now.

    About the novel, unfortunately there are not even written summaries for it, and unfortunately I don't have a copy of my own to make one, even less to translate it.

    @justinkal:

    1) In one of the Sekailink events, Undu explains Nero agreed to let him separate, but no details are given about how he got a new body. Most likely, Zill did the same thing for him that she did for Kanon.

    2) The wormhole to Ra Ciela's former location appeared in the very center of Ar tonelico, and the Symphonic Power and SH Server signals could go through it to reach Soreil without problems. So Shurelia wasn't really in any danger of leaving the Tower's range unless the wormhole suddenly closed up.
     
    You know, considering all her talk about how she believes in the massive potential of humans, but also believes that they're corrupt/hateful/selfish/whatever to actually harness that potential without a superior being forcing them to unite, I kinda wonder how Zill would react if she witnessed the creation of Metafalica. That's basically the perfect counterexample to the extremist side of her beliefs (aside from that technically it's not the same humanity).


    On a different note, is there any reason given ever for why the humans who moved from ???? to Ra Ciela have such a similar physical form to the humans native to Ar Ciel? Or is random coincidence of similar forms part of the reason why Ion's Oversight selected Ar Ciel as an inhabitable planet?
     
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    justinkal said:
    You know, considering all her talk about how she believes in the massive potential of humans, but also believes that they're corrupt/hateful/selfish/whatever to actually harness that potential without a superior being forcing them to unite, I kinda wonder how Zill would react if she witnessed the creation of Metallica. That's basically the perfect counterexample to the extremist side of her beliefs (aside from that technically it's not the same humanity).
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    She may yet get the chance, but not the canon version. Aya was--

    I'll let her speak for herself.
    On a different note, is there any reason given ever for why the humans who moved from ???? to Ra Ciela have such a similar physical form to the humans native to Ar Ciel? Or is random coincidence of similar forms part of the reason why Ion's Oversight selected Ar Ciel as an inhabitable planet?
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    They all seem to be originally from Earth. Though, exactly how that works...
     
    Baughn said:
    She may yet get the chance, but not the canon version. Aya was--

    I'll let her speak for herself.

    They all seem to be originally from Earth. Though, exactly how that works...
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    Is that a draft of what you're writing now? Guess I'll wait and see.

    ........also, I just noticed that autocorrect changed "Metafalica" to "Metallica"...................


    Didn't Ar Ciel's humans get born naturally on the planet, created when the Wills were creating tons of lifeforms (as told in Singing Hill ~Ar=Ciel Ar=Dor~)?

    And it wouldn't really make sense for Ra Ciela's humans to have come there from Earth, unless there's also a version of Earth that exists within EXA_PICO itself, because then all of them would have suffered the same fate as Nero after migrating to Ra Ciela.

    ................Maybe there's something about the Will of EXA_PICO itself that makes similar species arise on many different planets?
     
    justinkal said:
    Didn't Ar Ciel's humans get born naturally on the planet, created when the Wills were creating tons of lifeforms (as told in Singing Hill ~Ar=Ciel Ar=Dor~)?
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    Ar Ciel's humans did, but the Wills themselves are human, or effectively so. The human population was created in their image, so it's just pushing the origin back a step.
    justinkal said:
    And it wouldn't really make sense for Ra Ciela's humans to have come there from Earth, unless there's also a version of Earth that exists within EXA_PICO itself, because then all of them would have suffered the same fate as Nero after migrating to Ra Ciela.
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    I agree. They couldn't have physically entered Exa Pico, at least not with the resources available to even Player Two.

    That doesn't exactly mean that they can't originate from Earth. What I think happened is that something -- possibly Exa Pico itself -- took a look around, found humanity, and decided to create life in their image. The degree to which the people of whatever Earth that was participated in the process themselves, is... currently completely unknown.

    (Then it happened again, with the Ar Cielan populace, and again, with Reyvateils...)

    justinkal said:
    Is that a draft of what you're writing now? Guess I'll wait and see.
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    Yeah. :)

    It's the introduction. Feel free to read it; it won't spoil anything, though I don't yet know how long it'll be until I publish it for real.
     
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    Baughn said:
    Ar Ciel's humans did, but the Wills themselves are human, or effectively so. The human population was created in their image, so it's just pushing the origin back a step.

    I agree. They couldn't have physically entered Exa Pico, at least not with the resources available to even Player Two.

    That doesn't exactly mean that they can't originate from Earth. What I think happened is that something -- possibly Exa Pico itself -- took a look around, found humanity, and decided to create life in their image. The degree to which the people of whatever Earth that was participated in the process themselves, is... currently completely unknown.



    Yeah. :)

    It's the introduction. Feel free to read it; it won't spoil anything, though I don't yet know how long it'll be until I publish it for real.
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    Well, one cop-out explanation is that the entity known as EXA_PICO is actually Akira Tsuchiya's Author Avatar :V


    And yeah, I read that snippet. Looks like a nice start.
     
    @justinkal

    I'll refrain from commenting on anything on Ciela's humans (yeah, Ciela is the name of the original planet the Ra Cielans came from), as there are no official statements beyond the fact they were born in Ciela, but I'll say that now you are in Ar's Phase 3, you can read the wiki in full, as you've passed the spoilery parts already.

    The same goes for the Ciel Extend Talk Pack 3 files excepting for file 19 (the final one), as that one isn't supposed to be read until you've seen at least the normal endings.
     
    aquagon said:
    @justinkal

    I'll refrain from commenting on anything on Ciela's humans (yeah, Ciela is the name of the original planet the Ra Cielans came from), as there are no official statements beyond the fact they were born in Ciela, but I'll say that now you are in Ar's Phase 3, you can read the wiki in full, as you've passed the spoilery parts already.

    The same goes for the Ciel Extend Talk Pack 3 files excepting for file 19 (the final one), as that one isn't supposed to be read until you've seen at least the normal endings.
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    Good to know!

    I assume from the name that there's also a Talk Pack 1 and 2. Any notable info in those?

    Also, did Surge Concerto ever get any supplemental stuff as massive and wacky as the Toukousphere?
     
    justinkal said:
    Good to know!

    I assume from the name that there's also a Talk Pack 1 and 2. Any notable info in those?

    Also, did Surge Concerto ever get any supplemental stuff as massive and wacky as the Toukousphere?
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    The Talk Pack 1 was just the events for the Filament Star book, which were date sensitive and thus can't be triggered anymore (unless the game gets hacked), while the Talk Pack 2 is the events for Ion's Recipe Book.

    And there was a Toukousphere-alike called Seven Dimensional Tranmission, but it only lasted for about 20 issues before ending, and it was just character-related stuff, with no worldbuilding information included in it. That said, they ran quizzes every issue that rewarded with HymP the players who answered them correctly.
     
    aquagon said:
    And there was a Toukousphere-alike called Seven Dimensional Tranmission, but it only lasted for about 20 issues before ending, and it was just character-related stuff, with no worldbuilding information included in it. That said, they ran quizzes every issue that rewarded with HymP the players who answered them correctly.
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    Did it include any of the wacky stuff, such as characters responding to fanmail/fanart, characters who never really got to interact much snarking at each other, or alternative personality versions of the characters (Toukousphere Aurica comes to mind)?

    All that humor made the Toukousphere a really memorable read.
     
    @aquagon @anyone else who can deal with complicated lore questions
    Ok, so since you said that the Genomirai Wiki doesn't talk about anything past the start of Phase 3, I've got a few questions about the True End of Ar nosurge and the final parts of Ciel nosurge (the parts released after Ar nosurge came out).

    I'm putting these in spoilers since I'm not sure if I'm the only one around here who waited until the Ciel nosurge videos were finished before starting on Ar nosurge.
    1. Right before his death, Clacket gives a special tron to Sarly and says that it's contents are super important and that he's confident that Sarly will eventually be able to figure them out.

      I don't remember this ever coming up again in Ar nosurge, even though that seems like that that would be something really, really important to Sarly. When I first saw the scene, I assumed it was something about Interdimend, but then a later flashback scene has Clacket say that the Ar nosurge Tube and an ES45 Cathode are both already on the Sorelli, so clearly Sarly didn't use his secret data to build that.
    2. Near the end of Ciel nosurge (in video 247 on YouTube), Clacket tells Nay that it's possible to calculate the location of Ion's original world by using 10 or 20 thousand ES45 Cathodes (presumably each controlled by a different Player).

      This never seems to be brought up again, even after Ra Ciela is reborn, and instead Prim out of nowhere reveals the method of "go to the center of the universe to talk to the Will of EXA_PICO" (which I would think would take a ridiculously long amount of travel time (far more than building more ES45 Cathodes would take), and is dependent on the rather shoddy assumption that Player 2 was actually telling the truth and/or knew what they were talking about.

      Taking into account the previous question, my assumption at the end of Ciel nosurge was that the special tron that Clacket gave Sarly right before his death was all his research on this method of sending Ion home, but neither got mentioned. What's up with that :???:
    3. Lastly, how the hell did Ion and Nero even manage to communicate with the Will of EXA_PICO?

      We know from Ar tonelico 3 that talking to the Will of a Planet requires jumping through a ton of frequency related hoops unless the planet is healthy and the Will actually wants to talk to you (like how that Teru priestess is able to contact Horus), and the Settai Books said that actually gaining the attention of EXA_PICO's Will would require doing something completely ridiculous (probably something like letting the Orgel of Origins run out of control), so how the heck did they pull that off?

      Best I can think of, and this is based on my very hazy understanding of this stuff, is go to the Will's physical location (the center of the universe) and then take a nap so that they can use their Oversight to talk to the Will while acting as 6th dimensional beings. I'm not sure if that even makes sense or if it would even help them though.

      Based on the special ending that you get if you both get Ar nosurge's True End and married Ion in Ciel nosurge, clearly the plan worked, but how did it work, and did they even think the plan through at all beyond "Player 2 said so"?
     
    justinkal said:
    I'm putting these in spoilers since I'm not sure if I'm the only one around here who waited until the Ciel nosurge videos were finished before starting on Ar nosurge.
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    I don't have any special insight into this, but let me give you my ideas anyway...
    1. The ES45 cathode and Tube were both Clacket's work. I think it's likely that he gave her his notes on the subject, as even if they already existed, she could still make good use of the data. It's not about building them, but it could still be about using them; to get Nei[1] home, for instance.

    2. Finding Nei's home is a matter of finding the correct instance of Earth, among the very many alternate ones. Ours, Nayaka's, Player Two's... well, you know, ours wouldn't actually be on the list; it'd be an alternate world, similar to ours, which in fact is connected to Exa Pico. Which ours isn't. But anyway, let's pretend it is...

    There aren't "ten or twenty thousand ES45 cathodes" in existence; there's only the one, so any attempt at using information from that would involve cooperation with alternate worlds. That actually makes sense; it's a form of triangulation. It also sounds really, really difficult, and it's possible that Sarly's research into doing this didn't succeed. Clacket hadn't already cracked the problem; if he had, then he wouldn't be as worried as he was.

    So my guess would be "Because it failed".

    3. I honestly don't think she did. Yes, Aquagon disagrees, but this is Nei. She had every reason to lie and claim she got home, even if she didn't.

    That being said... Nei and Uluria, on their own, after several thousand more years or development? This is begging for someone to write an adventure story. They're both nice people; Uluria was just desperate, and thought the entire world was against her. We saw how quickly she changed her tune, and how little it took; even a hint of friendship from Casty was enough to change her mind.

    There's no chance they'll leave each other behind, at that stage. They both have the same wish, and I think they'll stick together until the very last minute. It could be....

    Bad Baughn!

    Er, anyway. Player two hates Nei, and he's also a sore loser. We see this repeatedly, both with Prim and in the prequel novels; it seems that P2 nearly killed Nei, prior to Ciel nosurge, just because she messed up his plans. Which is why she ended up going to Ra Ciela in the first place, mind you... geh, shenanigans.

    (1) I know she calls herself Ion, but I also know why. Even if she'd prefer we don't remind her of what she's lost... well, it's not like she's listening in here. We can use her real name, and I also feel sorry for Nayaflask for losing her own. If it wouldn't be so confusing, I'd be calling Nayaflask 'Ionasal'... Some of that attitude may have made its way into my characterization of Aya, yes.
     
    @justinkal

    1) The Tron is actually an encrypted form of the blueprints and specification documents for the Surge Concerto Terminal, and they never came up in the story because Sarly never managed to decipher them to the degree they would be practically useful, aside of the fact Sarly helped Undu with programming Expaja.

    2) I'm actually assuming they did use the Seven-Dimensionsal triangulation method to find the coordinates, as the Ar nosurge Tube was still working and could be used for that purpose. The true problem would then have been getting to energy to send both Ion and Nero back, but considering it's the Will of EXA_PICO we're talking about here, providing the energy should have been a non-issue for Them.

    3) Obviously they had to be doing it through Oversight, as otherwise they couldn't have figured out how to sing a communication song with it. That aside, I'm sure EXA_PICO had already them on Their sights due to their mere presences distorting Their dominion, so if they took all that work to get to Their physical location to request their sending back to their respective worlds, I don't see why EXA_PICO would have refused, as that kills three birds with a single stone.

    Also, I don't get what's Baughn's insistence with "Nei lied, she never got home", even despite the horrible implications that such a scenario has for her and her family, not to mention it renders everything she did moot and it's too cruel to her after everything she has already gone through.
     
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    I kinda agree with you about the names, but I find myself saying "Ion" for sake of consistency, since "Nero" is far easier to remember how to spell than [name that seems to be spelled differently each time I see it].

    Fair enough on point 1, but it would have been nice to at least have it mentioned. Even that is still only a guess/assumption.
    Baughn said:
    There aren't "ten or twenty thousand ES45 cathodes" in existence; there's only the one, so any attempt at using information from that would involve cooperation with alternate worlds.
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    Uhh, isn't there at least two of them? One in Earthes original body, which then winds up in the possession of Nero and Player 2, and then a second which winds up in the new body they build for Earthes?

    That implied to me that they know how to build more ES45 Cathodes, which makes sense if that info was either part of what Clacket passed on to Sarly or is recorded in the Surge Concerto Terminal's databases.

    So I would think it's just a matter of building more of them and then using the Ar nosurge Tube to connect them each to a Player.


    And yes, more info about the journey that Ion and Nero took would be nice, and if it really did fail that could serve as the premise for another game, but I highly doubt that's the kind of thing they'd use as a Sequel Hook, especially after so many years IRL.

    There's plenty of other time periods we don't know much about, such as what happens on Ra Ciela after Ion and Nero leave, what happened on Ciela before humanity moved to Ra Ciela (although making that plot not feel like a rehash of the VN portions of Ciel nosurge doesn't sound feasible for a game), a detailed story of how the investigation team and Telefunken became the Teru, and what happened on Ar Ciel after people returned to the surface.

    Also, I've seen these prequel novels mentioned a few times. Is there a summary of them somewhere? All I've really seen is the games themselves, that Ciel Extend Talk Pack Volume 3, the Genomirai Wiki (which I'm still working through), and some really small things (like that text adventure about Delta and the Wall and that storybook that Ion wrote).
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    Ninja'd
     
    aquagon said:
    Also, I don't get what's Baughn's insistence with "Nei lied, she never got home", even despite the horrible implications that such a scenario has for her and her family, not to mention it renders everything she did moot and it's too cruel to her after everything she has already gone through.
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    Ah, you're answering your own question. That's why; I'm a sucker for tragedies.

    Also because it'd be so very in character for her. One last act of self-denial.
     
    While I hate tragedies, especially when they end with a bad ending that throws everything the main character did to the trash and that thematically goes against what the rest of the story was going for.

    @justinkal At this point in time, there aren't even summaries for either of the two novels or for the extra story that shows Nei's life in her Earth after her return from Ra Ciela. I do have a copy of the first novel and will translate it a some point, but for now I'm taking a break, as there are also some other things I want to translate in preparation for AT2's second anniversary.
     
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    aquagon said:
    2) I'm actually assuming they did use the Seven-Dimensionsal triangulation method to find the coordinates, as the Ar nosurge Tube was still working and could be used for that purpose. The true problem would then have been getting to energy to send both Ion and Nero back, but considering it's the Will of EXA_PICO we're talking about here, providing the energy should have been a non-issue for Them.
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    Is the energy requirement really an issue?

    Wouldn't connecting to that many Players mean that they'd be receiving a gigantic amount of power from other dimensions?

    If that wouldn't be the case due to maximum power limitations of the Ar nosurge Tube itself, considering the time scales involved in "reach the center of the universe", couldn't they have either built more copies of the Ar nosurge Tube (after Sarly deciphers more of the notes) or built tons and tons of capacitors that are gradually charged by interdimensional energy during the journey through space?
    aquagon said:
    3) Obviously they had to be doing it through Oversight, as otherwise they couldn't have figured out how to sing a communication song with it. That aside, I'm sure EXA_PICO had already them on Their sights due to their mere presences distorting Their dominion, so if they took all that work to get to Their physical location to request their sending back to their respective worlds, I don't see why EXA_PICO would have refused, as that kills three birds with a single stone.
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    If EXA_PICO's Will really was already paying attention, wouldn't They have taken action to limit the scale of the distortions? If They really cared that much, I would think that They would either exert some influence to counterbalance the distortion that screwed up Bezel (especially since wouldn't Ra Ciela getting destroyed without anyone escaping mean that the problem of "these two extradimensional souls are here" would just keep getting worse and worse for all eternity?) or would intentionally contact Ion and Nero before they even reached the center of the universe.
    Baughn said:
    Ah, you're answering your own question. That's why; I'm a sucker for tragedies.

    Also because it'd be so very in character for her. One last act of self-denial.
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    If she both failed and could contact the same Player again, the only reason I can think of for why she would lie is "EXA_PICO told us that what we're trying to do is impossible". If they merely failed to contact EXA_PICO's Will, I would think that she would still have some hope and would ask for help looking for a way to contact the Will, and even if she didn't want to ask for the Player's help again, Nero would.
    aquagon said:
    While I hate tragedies, especially when they end with a bad ending that throws everything the main character did to the trash and that thematically goes against what the rest of the story was going for.

    @justinkal At this point in time, there aren't even summaries for either of the two novels or for the extra story that shows Nei's life in her Earth after her return from Ra Ciela. I do have a copy of the first novel and will translate it a some point, but for now I'm taking a break, as there are also some other things I want to translate in preparation for AT2's second anniversary.
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    Yeah, tragedies are one thing, and I'm ok with them (hell, taken by itself, the VN portions of Ciel nosurge can arguably be called a tragedy). The part about throwing everything that was done and all the themes in the trash is something I wouldn't even call a "tragedy", just plain stupid and terrible writing.

    And more than fair enough! Translate stuff in whatever order you feel like! We're all extremely lucky and thankful to have people like you and blackraen around! I know from experience with other fandoms that you guys really go above and beyond with all this work.
     
    justinkal said:
    If she both failed and could contact the same Player again, the only reason I can think of for why she would lie is "EXA_PICO told us that what we're trying to do is impossible". If they merely failed to contact EXA_PICO's Will, I would think that she would still have some hope and would ask for help looking for a way to contact the Will, and even if she didn't want to ask for the Player's help again, Nero would.
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    I have difficulties with that ending overall. I don't mind tragedies, and I'm also fine with non-tragedies, but the result we got there...

    It's a deus ex machina, basically, and a rather literal one. Up until that point Nei's victories were hard-fought, but in the end she gets home by... asking god for help? Eh? Not to mention that the various Wills are generally shown to be hands-off, even when being hands-off is bad for them. We're given no explanation of why Exa Pico deigns to help.

    I can't explain why she doesn't ask the player for help, but honestly I don't much care. As far as I'm concerned, that ending didn't happen. If I were rewriting it (which I might), she'd be getting home through her own hard work, along with help from Sarly, Uluria and her other friends.

    To the degree it did happen, though, I will point out that Nei being self-sacrificing is very much in character for her. I really wish she'd stop.

    ...and an ideal, perfect ending would be one in which she doesn't have to give up either her family and friends back on Earth, or her new friends on Ra Ciela.
     
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    And yet you're forgetting something importante there: as pointed out in the liner notes for "To the You of This World and to the You of That World" and in the final file for the Extend Talk Pack Vol. 3, we as players have Oversight over EXA_PICO's universe, which translates to the fact that Ion's ultimate fate depends on what we want for her.

    In short, as the notes themselves say, if what we wish for her is that she gets home safe and has a happy life in her world that's what will happen (and that's what canonically happens too). On the converse, if what we wish is her ending lost in space and dying pointlessly, that's what will happen to her, though to me that would only mean betraying her and Nero, failing to solve the situation that makes their stay in that universe so dangerous, and also failing to keep the promise we made to Delta and the others to make sure she got back safely.
     
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    aquagon said:
    And yet you're forgetting something importante there: as pointed out in the liner notes for "To the You of This World and to the You of That World" and in the final file for the Extend Talk Pack Vol. 3, we as players have Oversight over EXA_PICO's universe, which translates to the fact that Ion's ultimate fate depends on what we want for her.

    In short, as the notes themselves say, if what we wish for her is that she gets home safe and has a happy life in her world that's what will happen (and that's what canonically happens too). On the converse, if what we wish is her ending lost in space and dying pointlessly, that's what will happen to her, though to me that would only mean betraying her and Nero, failing to solve the situation that makes their stay in that universe so dangerous, and also failing to keep the promise we made to Delta and the others to make sure she got back safely.
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    Well, it's not like the game is short on opportunities for the player to be a colossal asshole using that power.....................such as the Shurelia Ending and a few places near the end of the Earthes/Ion dives.

    And of course, there's definitely some limitations on our own Oversight (and that of Player 2), because there's definitely plenty of players who failed at "Ion's ultimate fate depends on what we want for her", since there's bound to be some players who wanted "live a happy life in this world". Some people are hardcore in that way about waifus :V
     
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