Where is the "Free People's Federation" on the map?
So we finally see Egypt's first battle with the Americans. More a mopping up of a spiritually shattered farce than anything else. Trying to stary by picking at the edges in hope of magicking up an army is clearly a bad move. I'm curious what strategy the Hall-Brown Expedition tried.
Alternativly, could be quite fun to see if Teen's Spirits other projects were crossed over as well.
I really liked his old Legion/NCR to the Gallic Wars Map (I acutlly worked on a remaster not to long ago, although not sure if I'd release it), so I imagine a scenario where the Western half of Rome, Gaul, the Legion, and the NCR are also transported back to 1600 BCE.
Imagine explaining to a random NCR merchant that their, or they were rather, a video game character. Or how there are two different factions of "Americans" trying to be Rome.
Just a thought though, I'm an ISOT addict.
Alternativly, could be quite fun to see if Teen's Spirits other projects were crossed over as well.
I really liked his old Legion/NCR to the Gallic Wars Map (I acutlly worked on a remaster not to long ago, although not sure if I'd release it), so I imagine a scenario where the Western half of Rome, Gaul, the Legion, and the NCR are also transported back to 1600 BCE..
Anyway this is supposed to be a map thread so here's another map from the same project. UN Parliamentary Elections are held every five years. Districts are drawn by the UN Elections Committee every ten years. The UN Elections Committee is not composed of Members of Parliament, but rather by...
Alternativly, could be quite fun to see if Teen's Spirits other projects were crossed over as well.
I really liked his old Legion/NCR to the Gallic Wars Map (I acutlly worked on a remaster not to long ago, although not sure if I'd release it), so I imagine a scenario where the Western half of Rome, Gaul, the Legion, and the NCR are also transported back to 1600 BCE.
Imagine explaining to a random NCR merchant that their, or they were rather, a video game character. Or how there are two different factions of "Americans" trying to be Rome.
Just a thought though, I'm an ISOT addict.
Oh wow, that's quite the callback. I'm honestly surprised anyone remembered that map, thank you. I deeply appreciate you interest.
The mental image of Caesar's Legion discovering Rome is rather amusing, since both of their founders would be absolutely losing their minds at the other and how they view Rome. While Actual Rome is just standing there awkwardly. Most of the Uptimer world would be pretty freaked out over Video game factions being real because that has weird implications about their situation in general.
I do like the idea of Rome and Gaul going along with NCR and the Legion. I've kind of had a similar idea for a while. I've wondered what would happen if the Dual Kingdom of Crete, both parts of Cyprus, and a few other islands in Age of Rust ended up in the Time of the Second Triumvirate, just before Sextus Pompey did his thing, so around 40 BCE. New Arrivals would absolutely have the power advantage but would also have some manpower issues if conflict got intense.
Also I feel like Rome would actively hate Crete and everything it's about and that amuses me, particularly since Anthony and Octavian would be forced to deal with Crete.
The curtains fell with Odysseus hugging both his wife and son. People began clapping as the curtains rose again and in order the actors stepped out and bowed. Even the chorus, musicians, and the backstage crew.
It was an American tradition that has firmly entrenched itself in theater plays. In Fact, all theaters were greatly affected by the Americans.
Odikweos clapped with everyone but his heart wasn't quite in it. Odikweos left to the balcony. There was going to be a ball after this where the guests could mingle with the actors and each other. His dad could deal with a few minutes without him. Probably. Odikweos needed a minute, however.
Jorge Rivera was a true master of his art and one of the leading playwrights in the Eastern Mediterranean. His greatest work so far was a play he began writing before the event.
A play about… him.
Maybe. Probably.
Possibly?
It was a play that was most likely about him. Based on a book, based on oral stories, based on myth based on an uncertain period of time. Maybe?
In a way the myth was true. He, the royal prince of Ithaca, was lost and away from home and across the sea. In his absence Ithaca was under the thumb of other men, the Populists, much like the Suitors.
Odikweos sighed as he leaned against the railing. The moon was bright and the sea calm. Many Americans had told him the world seemed more beautiful now than what it had been in the Uptime. A weird concept.
"You look sad."
Odikweos did not scream and would deny any accusation.
He did fall over.
"Okay down there."
Odikweos blinked at the girl who had appeared bride him. She was young, maybe a year older or younger than his own fourteen years. She was wearing the dress of a common Cretian upper class but mixed with the practicality of the newer post-american styles.
She kind of reminded him a little of the Wanax.
Odikweos accepted the hand and allowed the oddly strong girl to help him up.
"Sorry for the unseemly sight my lady."
"Lady?" the girl smiled, "please call me Penny."
"Odikweos," he said, cringing a little.
"Oh," she looked back into the theater, "like the guy."
Odikweos nodded.
"Must be tough," she said not noticing his raised eyebrows, "To suddenly find yourself some larger-than-life legend."
Odikweos blinked, "I-you could say that."
"Yet at the same time you wished you were like this man, that you could live up to the legend."
"Are you an oracle?" Odikweos said seriously. The Oracles were dangerous.
The girl shook her head, "God's no. I have some cousins that do the whole Oracle thing but I like to think that fate is malleable."
"Well, either that or you are gifted with the ability to read minds."
The girl chuckled and slap-tapped his arm, "No silly. It's not a psychic ability but empathy. I know a thing or two about duty."
At his look, she continued, "I was something of an unimportant member of the family. But due to unexpected circumstances, I have been thrust into the spotlight of the family. Possibly even an heiress. The whole clan is just…ug."
Odikweos laughed as she pulled at her golden hair.
"Family politics is a pain."
She indeed did know a little of his pain.
"Who is your family? A noble house I assume or wealthy merchants? You wearing Cretian clothes but a very practical style. That tends to be an American-Cretian way."
"You are good, just as she thought."
"She?"
"My mentor. Dad's busy at the moment so Aunty is training me in all the things I need to know as a major go-woman."
"Oh," Odikweos narrowed his eyes at the hiccup. The girl blushed under his gaze and coughed under the scrutiny.
"What does your family do?"
"Oh," the girl looked around, "This and that. You could call us problem solvers. Kind of. I mean my aunty does that sort of thing all the time. My grandfather and granduncles have a tendency to cause problems."
She leaned in, "Don't tell them I said that."
Odikos, "I promise, instead tell me what you thought of the play."
"Oh it was amazing! My favorite song was Warrior of the Mind-
Odikweos listened and added his own thoughts. Penny was beautiful but something seemed a bit off. She wasn't just beautiful or smart. Odikweos could separate his own hormones from his thoughts enough to pick out the truly strange aspects of the girl and her story.
He glanced around looking for it. Somewhere there was a-
"Found it."
Penny eyed him, "Found what?"
Odikweos smiled as walked around the girl, "Don't get me wrong I've enjoyed the company but something felt a bit off," he pointed at her, "You Lady Penny are not who you say you are."
"Oh, that's a bit hypocritical."
"I'm not accusing you of anything but here's what I know. Your name is Penny. That's not Cretian, and you have the look of an American. Yet your Greek is perfect. You have a powerful family but I know every major American Nobel house and none have had any major shake-ups."
Penny stepped closer, "Are you saying I'm a liar."
Odikweos grinned, "No."
"No?"
"Nope."
"What do you mean no?"
"I mean no," Odikweos leaned against the railing, "I mean that your Aunty is here with us right now."
"Very astute of you young Odikweos."
Odikweos turned to address the new voice and felt his knees shake. He may not have thought this whole plan through.
"Athena!"
"This is what I am called. I see you saw through my wards game. Though honestly, twenty minutes was depressingly long?"
"How long have you been watching," Penny said bemused, "I'm not a baby you know."
"And yet young Odikweos saw through your ruse."
Odikweos should have stayed quiet. Odikweos, for all his intelligence, was however a Greek at heart and couldn't help himself, "To be fair the Owl patiently watching us the entire time was the final clue I needed."
Athena stared at him for a long moment, "I suppose that is a good point. Mortals are hardly so observant."
"May I ask why you are here goddess?"
"May a goddess not go where she please."
"No of course but I hardly doubt you dropped in for a chat with a local kid."
"Hardly just a kid. I had come with my ward on what I believe would be called business. Colliappe invited me to see the play, she is a muse after all. I heard that I was a Main Character; I couldn't resist."
The Goddess stepped closer, "However now that I have gotten the ley of the land and the locals I have to say it was worth it. Especially you young Odikweos. If you can not make the same mistakes that you-who-could-have-been made you might be made."
"Use? Use how?"
Athena rolled her eyes, "Guess, let's see if the intellect of Greece's craftiest hero is earned."
Odikweos looked at the goddess and spotted the similarities in her clothes to what had been described.
"You like Crete, and it's Wanax. Here in Crete, the gods are venerated and the American changes no matter how revolutionary don't threaten the core cultural roots or the God's place," Athena's eyes twinkled, "But for Greece proper the Event has upended everything. Even those states that have survived with the old hierarchies are on the fast track to collapse. And in the Popular Republic, the veneration of the gods is slowly being eroded."
It all was starting to come together.
"You need to weaken the Popular Republic and probably the other statelets. But not just to bring back the old order but to institute a new one. Either under the direct rule of the dual kingdom or modeled after it."
"And how can this be done?"
Odikweos looked over to Penny, "Your father is Ares."
"It's complicated but yes."
Odikweos bit his lip, "He is going to ferment chaos on the mainland. In that chaos-" Odikweos stopped as he realized the implications or quite possibly what it could mean for him.
"Your father is useless Odikweos but you aren't. You could very well be the one to help me restore good order to Greece. These Populists especially threaten everything and must be stopped, however, this will not be a simple thing and you need to be trained."
"I'm planning to join the Cretian Military in a month."
"Yes. I assume I will build up both experience and a reputation. Gain the Loyalty of Crete, use your fame, and eventually lead an invasion of Ithaca with support."
"Well, it sounds far simpler out loud."
The god rested her hand on his shoulder as she passed him, "Simple is not bad. I think it is a good plan if it is a bit rough around the edges. I will help in your training and when the time is right you will find your way home if you have what it takes."
The god passed him and Odikweos spun around.
"I will be as ruthless as I need," Odikweos put his hand on his chest, an American gesture, "but I won't betray my friends or throw babies off buildings!"
"Making demands of a god now? Only you."
"Just making it clear. let there be no false promises."
Athena didn't turn around but turned her head and nodded, "Deal. Come along Alcippe." The goddess morphed into an Owl and flew away.
The younger goddess chuckled, "Cool right?"
"Alcippe?"
The girl blushed, "I know I'm still getting used to it. The whole major god thing is just wow. Next time we meet I'll explain more."
She turned and stepped on the ledge but turned around, "You can still call me Penny though. No my Lady or My goddess stuff. Penny. It's short for Penelope," She jumped on the Railing and jumped.
Odikweos couldn't help himself as he ran forward but before he even got to the railing a shape burst forward. A large eagle with white feathers on its head circled around him before flying off.
Odikweos couldn't help himself as he ran forward but before he even got to the railing a shape burst forward. A large eagle with white feathers on its head circled around him before flying off.
The last part it making me wonder if any "American God's" (Uncle Sam, Lady Columbia, Paul Bunyan etc) might have been brought along in the Event and if they might be clashing with the "Old God's."
I kinda wonder if how the Olympian would view "Jesus" or more specifically if local faith syncretism with Christianity how would "Olympian" Jesus look like.
I kinda wonder if how the Olympian would view "Jesus" or more specifically if local faith syncretism with Christianity how would "Olympian" Jesus look like.
The last part it making me wonder if any "American God's" (Uncle Sam, Lady Columbia, Paul Bunyan etc) might have been brought along in the Event and if they might be clashing with the "Old God's."
I kinda wonder if how the Olympian would view "Jesus" or more specifically if local faith syncretism with Christianity how would "Olympian" Jesus look like.
The Abrahamic god is always on the level of the "Universe" a cosmic everything similar to Brahman. I'd imagine that's how the "old" gods would see them.
"Tech advanced rapidly in the years following the Event as and more tech was rediscovered. Iron was replaced with steel, pikes with muskets and then breechloaders. This left many states with a large surplus of weapons that had been rendered all but useless in a regular battle. Many reforged them into something else, why waste good metal after all, or simply kept them for city guards or other defensive units. A few of them realized there was a business opportunity in their hands. A musket made out of old pipe may not be worth much to the average American state some twenty years after we arrived, but to some chief in Northern Germany who's still wearing bronze armor, they're a war winner." - Alexander Roose, 'American Bellum, the story of American influence and power in the post-Event world.' Published 22 A.E
"Trade beyond Sicily is a complicated affair my friend. With the right goods, a single ship to the Tartessos could earn profit to secure a seat in the senate, but it's a balancing act. Give them too much and they'll build a kingdom in their own right, give them too little and they'll eventually realize you're holding out on them and grow resentful. Never underestimate them, don't fall into the same mistakes Americans do. You need to give enough to keep them interested, string them along until they come to depend on you. Once that happens your family will have a secure market for a generation and our kingdom will have a ready made stronghold for its western ambitions." -Ekero Richardson, Dual Kingdom of Crete and Mycenae
"Most people think American influence ends at Greece, Crimea and Syria, that we've made little impact beyond the borders we've created, this belief is very much incorrect. True you rarely see our kind beyond those borders save for the occasional family in Terramare or the rare men and women who've made themselves power advisers to chiefs and kings across what would have been France and Germany, but our influence is still widely felt. In Babylon there are merchants selling pre-Event pots and pan, in Terramare there are children wearing american made shirts dyed colors their parents could barely have dreamed of before, and across Europe, Africa, and the Middle East, men who have never even met an American, fight and die in brutal iron and musket wars." - Elicia Baxter, 'The World Since the Event' Published 20 A.E
While American and heavily American influenced rule is more or less confined to the Eastern Mediterranean and the Black Sea, its influence has been felt across a much broader area. From missionaries spreading their faith in Italy and Iran,to American made weapons fueling wars as far north as the British Isles
Early Days
While the Event itself played havoc with trade in the eastern Mediterranean and the Black Sea once Wilusa fell, trade in the rest of Europe was largely unaffected by the Event at first. This is largely due to the eruption of Thera having disrupted trade already, with most of Crete and Cyprus' merchant vessels wrecked during the eruption, very little trade was flowing to western europe. This lack of trade meant news of the Event was low to travel, while groups like the Terramare in northern Italy learned of what happened relatively quickly through fishermen and travels, other groups further away in Britain and northern Germany would only hear little more than fourth hand rumors for a year. For a few their first real news would come from Cretan ships themselves, arriving unexpectedly in ports, loaded with goods the likes of which none of the locals had ever seen before.
Uneven Trade
Trade between uptimer ruled (And uptimer influenced states such as Egypt) and downtimer states in the western and northern parts of Europe (and north Africa) is a common occurrence but one often made complicated by the ambitions of the former.
Many uptimer states have grand if long term ambitions for expansion. The Popular Republic, Arizona Republic, and Iolcus all have plans to expand to Albania and make use of their oil once their rivals are defeated, while both New Washington and Crete have ambitions on Italy and Iberia. Perhaps the biggest ambitions come from New Monthan and Crimea, with many in the latter wanting to spread their faith (and rule) through all of Ukraine and Russia, and the leader of the former having declared his goal to spread American rule to all corners of Europe.
These ambitions have a heavy influence on trade as many of the uptime states see the places they're trading with as sites for future expansion and or colonization. This has led many states to use trade as a way of asserting influence and laying the groundwork for future efforts.
This is done in a variety of ways, Crimean merchants outside of their own borders will almost always travel with missionaries out to spread their faith and influence. Crete in recent years has begun establishing small enclaves in friendly port cities, merchants often establishing a full time presence, offering to build and improve local ports and roads in exchange for exclusive rights to certain goods or greater influence on trade in the area.
Trade in general is a largely very uneven affair between uptimers and downtimers, uptimer states and Egypt simply have a greater quality, quantity, and variety of goods to offer. Uptime states are regularly able to trade things of much higher quality and quantity then anything downtimers had to offer. This imbalance in power leads to situations where ship loads of copper, tin alongside other metals and livestock are traded for a relatively small amount of costume jewelry, cloth, along with a few pots and pans.
Uptimer ambitions play a key role in deciding what goods are trading with downtimers, as many uptime states fear parts of France or Iberia turning into another Egypt, a Downtimer power able to stand on its own with only moderate outside help.
This means trade is generally designed to dazzle and impress but not provide downtimers with the means to strengthen and improve themselves to a great degree. Fabric, jewelry, and cookware are popular trading items. Occasionally steel farm tools will be traded but not the means or knowledge to forge steel, or uptime crops to expand their crop yields. While tools and other useful things are occasionally traded, efforts are made to ensure they're beyond the means of the locals to reproduce, making downtimes depend on the uptimers for trade.
This imbalance of trade often leads to downtimer kings sending more and more people into the mines, in an effort to appease the demands of their trading partners. A notable example of this would occur in Brittany, where Armorican kings would send entire villages into the mines in a fanatic effort to appease uptime traders.
Slave trading is uncommon and outlawed by many factions, even many of those who have some form of downtimer slavery, but even states that outlaw it do sometimes trade in arguably free labor. After civil war and unrest had left half of the Kingdom of Alashiya under the control of an Egyptian allied rival, the ruling Right Faction began turning to outside labor for its copper mines around 6 A.E, largely by offering labor contracts to various downtimer kingdoms. The downtimers would receive large shipments of cloth and tools in exchange for hiring out many of their young men to Alashiya. While these men are paid, conditions in the mines are poor, hours are long, and abuse is common, with many men spending years or even a decade or more in the mines, removed from all of their family and friends, stuck in an unfamiliar land with no means of easy escape.
When the Left Faction rose to power in later years there were efforts to remove the mines or even outlaw conscripted labor but more socially conservative elements within the faction and general infighting have stalled these efforts.
The downtimer kings care little of the abuses, the number of laborers taken is never enough to destabilize things and the riches Alashiya brings them is well worth the unrest it causes.
While many uptime goods have had profound effects on downtimer cultures, few can even come close to the destructive influence firearms and other weapons have had.
The Iron and Musket Wars.
Very few pre-Event firearms have made their way past the eastern med or the Black Sea, the rare ones that have usually see a brief spree of action before inevitably running out of ammo, the gun itself often becoming a status symbol or prestige good. By contrast, a great many post-Event americans weapons have found their way into outside hands.
It began with relatively simple iron weapons , usually pikes and spears but occasionally swords and other weapons. Iron weapons provide little advantage over bronze weapons, their main advantage being the less complex trade network they require to create, so at first these weapons were largely treated as little more than a novelty by the downtimers who got their hands on them. Useful but not special.
This started changing as some factions, notably Crete, the Air Force, New Arizona, and New Washington, began pouring more and more pikes into trade, both in an effort to make a profit off of now outdated weapons and to empower various towns and factions the various powers saw as useful to some degree. This led to towns and Kingdoms from Romania to Italy receiving hundreds, sometimes even thousands, of various weapons. Rapidly changing the balance of power in the region and giving rise to a series of conflicts that would come to be known to Americans as the Iron Wars.
The later introduction of steel would disrupt things even further as steel weapons proved both stronger and more durable then both iron or bronze. But the real revolution would come with the introduction of firearms.
Trade in firearms was all but unheard of in the first decade after the Event,the first post-Event firearms were crude, bulky, and desperately needed by all factions who built them. Black powder was also in relatively short supply as well. This would change during the second decade though as the cruder first generation of post-Event firearms, often made from pipes taken from Tucson itself, were replaced with more refined muskets and later even breech loading rifles. While many states simply moved the pipe guns into storage or secondary service, not every state did.
Guns first began spreading through mercenaries, mainly those hired by various Air Force factions.With most factions limited by a relatively low local downtimer population and an uptimer population that most consider too important to risk in combat unless absolutely needed, all of the major Air force factions used mercenaries to bolster their ranks, hiring everyone from Cetina people from the Adriatic coast to displaced Mycenaeans fleeing New Arizona and the Popular Republic.
Most of these mercenaries would be given iron and steel pikes and armor but around 14 A.E, the Emergency Government of New America started equipping and training its most dependable mercenaries with firearms, with Western Command and New Monthan quickly following suit. Many of these mercs would end up bringing firearms and ammo home with them.
Crete would be the first state to start trading firearms directly to powers outside of the Mediterranean or the Black Sea, selling outdated stock from its conquest of Sicily to friendly Nuragic towns in Sardinia and other powers in Italy, France, and even the British Isles. Often trading firearms and black powder for large amounts of metal, particularly tin. New Washington and Cyprus would follow not long after, largely supplying the enemies of those already armed by Crete in an effort to limit their influence.
The amount sold was usually small,rarely amounting to more than a few dozen rifles at any one time. The idea being to give the locals enough to use but not enough so they'd had any spares to study. None of the powers wanted to create a rival for their own interests in Western Europe.
While gun trade is generally limited in eastern Anatolia and Syria, a large number of guns and even a few gunsmiths have been smuggled out of the increasingly chaotic Republic of Hattium, with most ending up in Babylon or Egypt.
The spread of guns had an immediate and deadly effect. Various chiefs and kingdoms soon found themselves with a power many of their rivals couldn't even begin to match, conflict and bloodshed soon followed.
The Iron Wars gave way to the Musket Wars around 16 A.E. Their name shared with conflicts that ripped through uptime New Zealand in the early 1800s. These conflicts are largely ignored by American and American influenced states, with most largely ignorant of them and those who generally only care if their interests are threatened.
The Musket Wars are fought all over Europe, entire villages in Britain have been wiped off the map as Kings fight over tin mines with muskets and pikes,the Tollense valley in Germany was stained with blood by gun wielding raiders from the south, and the Apennine people of Italy are being ripped apart as Cretan and New Washington guns drive up tensions between rivals new and old, along with countless other conflicts.
None of these have yet matched the scale of conflict seen in areas closer to Tucson but that may change in time as more and more muskets and other weapons are traded and Uptimer influence extends further and further.
---
Author's Note: Sorry for the delay, combonation of being generally busy and writer's block. I know I said we where gonna cover American Republic of Turkey but I've had some new ideas about that so I had to rework that a bit. Hopefully you like this update, it was inspired by a number of conversations that sprang up during the ISOT quest.
Oof, if the weapons are being spread but not uptime seeds or farming techniques, I can only hope that some spread of medicine or basic hygiene is as well. Because steel and guns without any of the former is going to have a nasty effect on the population levels, and that's without the spread of disease from entire camps of men dying of infected gunshot wounds.
The benefits of being far away, having a population that's probably comparable that of much of Anatolia + Crete + Greece combined, and the Nile.
"Wait, are you saying you don't have a very predictable river that constantly refertilizes your soil while also providing reliable transportation across your nation? Well..."
"Skill issue."
Actually, I can't help but imagine how OP Egypt would probably be TTL if the Americans had emerged when Egypt was ruled by a native Pharaoh, rather than the foreign Hyksos that most of the population still dislikes. That's probably one of the few things holding them back right now.
I kinda wonder if how the Olympian would view "Jesus" or more specifically if local faith syncretism with Christianity how would "Olympian" Jesus look like.
My theory as to post-Event Christianity is that it'll end up combining the concepts that Jesus hasn't been born yet with the prophesied earthly kingdom of god and the ISOT. By which I mean, the following claims as doctrine:
One day in the future, Yahweh will have a son/encapsulate a portion of Himself in mortal form and come to earth. Having experienced humanity will cause Him to chill out from His Old Testament characterization and offer forgiveness.
One day in the future when our religion is more powerful, the world will be the kingdom of god, a perfect utopia.
Our ancestors were ISOTed from a future which by basically any metric was vastly superior to our present.
The only question being what the Tucsonans did to deserve exile from the kingdom of god. Can't have been the miscellaneous atrocities committed in the process of colonizing the bronze age, they hadn't done those yet when they were ISOTed.
If you want to get metafictional about it, have a schismatic cult trying to canonize S. M. Stirling as a prophet for his explanation, Nantucket Tucson got sent back in time to save them as the rest of the world was destroyed. At the exact time of the ISOT in the 2020s, the Ukrainian situation had escalated into direct war between Russia and NATO and the ICBMs were airborne, some silicon valley megacorp had created and lost control of an ASI or something. The situation was about to become so apocalyptic as to motivate God's direct intervention to save some of His faithful. The Tucsonans weren't particularly sinful, they were in fact the only people who'd deserved salvation.
There was one chance for Egypt to be conquered by Uptimers (Air Force making Egypt their main destination) but since that didn't happen, Egypt is too large, too organized and too close in tech for any state to conquer without considerable effort and risk, if it's doable at all. Which makes it a peer power even if several states probably wouldn't acknowledge that.
Oof, if the weapons are being spread but not uptime seeds or farming techniques, I can only hope that some spread of medicine or basic hygiene is as well. Because steel and guns without any of the former is going to have a nasty effect on the population levels, and that's without the spread of disease from entire camps of men dying of infected gunshot wounds.
Problem is food and medicine are some of the things uptime and uptime influenced states worry about the most. So food and medicine is being withheld both because powers don't want Downtimers in France and Italy getting strong but also because they want to make sure they have as big a stockpile as they can. also replacing Downtime crops with uptime crops takes a while.
The benefits of being far away, having a population that's probably comparable that of much of Anatolia + Crete + Greece combined, and the Nile.
"Wait, are you saying you don't have a very predictable river that constantly refertilizes your soil while also providing reliable transportation across your nation? Well..."
"Skill issue."
Actually, I can't help but imagine how OP Egypt would probably be TTL if the Americans had emerged when Egypt was ruled by a native Pharaoh, rather than the foreign Hyksos that most of the population still dislikes. That's probably one of the few things holding them back right now.
Admittedly I kind of always wanted the ISOT to be at an awkward time. Like originally I considered having the ISOT occur during the reign of Akhenaten but that wouldn't have worked for the Minoan side fo things.
That said, I do wonder what would have happened if this ISOT occured during the time of Ramses II for example. That would have been interesting.
I do think Crete might have been able to keep completely native rule had they not directly invited Americans in. Knossos is a large city and it would require quite a few Americans to keep control of it if the population and beaucracy were hostile.
Potatoes would probably be the fastest to spread by a good margin, as they are one of the most efficient crops and not nearly as needy as a lot of modern plants. The greater menagerie would take a long long time though.
I imagine some of the uptimers are making a killing with specific herbs and spices that either don't exist at all or would be worlds away from bronze age europe. And given the real-world history there the "a pouch of spices worth filling the hold of the ship with silver" would be very attractive, especially since the herbs and spices fit the criteria of being useless of resisting future conquest.
My theory as to post-Event Christianity is that it'll end up combining the concepts that Jesus hasn't been born yet with the prophesied earthly kingdom of god and the ISOT. By which I mean, the following claims as doctrine:
One day in the future, Yahweh will have a son/encapsulate a portion of Himself in mortal form and come to earth. Having experienced humanity will cause Him to chill out from His Old Testament characterization and offer forgiveness.
One day in the future when our religion is more powerful, the world will be the kingdom of god, a perfect utopia.
Our ancestors were ISOTed from a future which by basically any metric was vastly superior to our present.
The only question being what the Tucsonans did to deserve exile from the kingdom of god. Can't have been the miscellaneous atrocities committed in the process of colonizing the bronze age, they hadn't done those yet when they were ISOTed.
If you want to get metafictional about it, have a schismatic cult trying to canonize S. M. Stirling as a prophet for his explanation, Nantucket Tucson got sent back in time to save them as the rest of the world was destroyed. At the exact time of the ISOT in the 2020s, the Ukrainian situation had escalated into direct war between Russia and NATO and the ICBMs were airborne, some silicon valley megacorp had created and lost control of an ASI or something. The situation was about to become so apocalyptic as to motivate God's direct intervention to save some of His faithful. The Tucsonans weren't particularly sinful, they were in fact the only people who'd deserved salvation.
Eh I think that depends different groups have vastly different communities and more important institutions that control doctrine. For example JWs, Mormons and maybe seventh day Adventists communities have a stronger institutional structure and control of doctrine than say your average non denominational Protestant church. There will be changes but core doctrine more than likely will stay continuous for a lot of communities.
Problem is food and medicine are some of the things uptime and uptime influenced states worry about the most. So food and medicine is being withheld both because powers don't want Downtimers in France and Italy getting strong but also because they want to make sure they have as big a stockpile as they can. also replacing Downtime crops with uptime crops takes a while.
It's been a while since I read this correct me if I'm wrong but what about groups fleeing Anatolia wouldn't control over knowledge be pretty hard in the eastern Mediterranean. Considering how many books and people moving in all directions there are. Italy and France probably won't be too connected but Syria, Egypt, Iran?
Plus idk there's probably a few thousand missionaries settled out east they've probably brought books and skills to barter beyond religion no?
It's been a while since I read this correct me if I'm wrong but what about groups fleeing Anatolia wouldn't control over knowledge be pretty hard in the eastern Mediterranean. Considering how many books and people moving in all directions there are. Italy and France probably won't be too connected but Syria, Egypt, Iran?
Plus idk there's probably a few thousand missionaries settled out east they've probably brought books and skills to barter beyond religion no?
I was generally referring Europe, east is a very different story. And part two will talk about missionaries and more lone wandering types, which yeah they brough books and provide skills and services but often their influence in same areas factions are trading in tends to be limited.
Fair enough, though I'd posit that the more organized the missionaries/diaspora communities within these established downtimer states the more influence they'd have especially in conflict with Uptimer states and their traders. Just for a basic example paper and ink, an uptimer state might attempt to sell it but an uptimer enclave which has the need for the product and more importantly a general idea or perhaps even direct knowledge on how to make it would produce it domestically themselves and might even hire their own traders to buy goods to support their manufacturing.
Or even something as basic as modern bookeeping and accounting practices, obviously things will depend on individual situations. But I'll give an example, my religious community is pretty self sufficient in a few ways like accounting and construction specifically in my area we prefer to patron our own so to speak and fill in those niches that require a bit of trust. I digress, my point is that perhaps not to say that local uptimers will out compete uptimer states but rather there is room for an interesting amount of conflict between local uptimer influence and foreign uptimer influence from the larger states. Especially in the production of certain goods and the creation of certain institutions.
I apologize correct me if I'm wrong I may have misunderstood your rely.
Oof, if the weapons are being spread but not uptime seeds or farming techniques, I can only hope that some spread of medicine or basic hygiene is as well. Because steel and guns without any of the former is going to have a nasty effect on the population levels, and that's without the spread of disease from entire camps of men dying of infected gunshot wounds.
No doubt the effect on population from the weapons brought in will be bad by itself, but there is also the effect that disease from the traders will have. And don't get me wrong, the number of dead from each engagement will be considerable, but the effects from even one ill trader will be disastrous for many areas given the poor hygiene/medicine of the period. I suspect that for every 1 person who dies on campaign (be it on the battlefield, from wounds or from disease), another 5 will die from something brought by a trader unknowingly. If something quite bad happens to come in from a trader, the figure could be even more lopsided.
A great update and one that really hammers home that outside of the the eastern Mediterranean, there is still a significant impact from the up-timers on things. The timeline has really made me consider doing my own spin on something like this, albeit one set around a fictional small American city (say 40,000 people) being sent to an alternate 1200 or so Europe where Boston (or some other major city) appeared a century before, leading to the expected chaos and stuff. But it really hasn't gotten past the planning stages yet.
My theory as to post-Event Christianity is that it'll end up combining the concepts that Jesus hasn't been born yet with the prophesied earthly kingdom of god and the ISOT. By which I mean, the following claims as doctrine:
One day in the future, Yahweh will have a son/encapsulate a portion of Himself in mortal form and come to earth. Having experienced humanity will cause Him to chill out from His Old Testament characterization and offer forgiveness.
One day in the future when our religion is more powerful, the world will be the kingdom of god, a perfect utopia.
Our ancestors were ISOTed from a future which by basically any metric was vastly superior to our present.
The only question being what the Tucsonans did to deserve exile from the kingdom of god. Can't have been the miscellaneous atrocities committed in the process of colonizing the bronze age, they hadn't done those yet when they were ISOTed.
If you want to get metafictional about it, have a schismatic cult trying to canonize S. M. Stirling as a prophet for his explanation, Nantucket Tucson got sent back in time to save them as the rest of the world was destroyed. At the exact time of the ISOT in the 2020s, the Ukrainian situation had escalated into direct war between Russia and NATO and the ICBMs were airborne, some silicon valley megacorp had created and lost control of an ASI or something. The situation was about to become so apocalyptic as to motivate God's direct intervention to save some of His faithful. The Tucsonans weren't particularly sinful, they were in fact the only people who'd deserved salvation.
I'm generally of the opinion that the overwhelming majority of Christian churches are going take the opinion that Jesus's scarfice is not something that can be undone, so even if they're in a verison of the past, it still already happened from their prespective so everything still applies. Anything else opens up some very complicated and very messy theological questions most of the faith don't want to deal with. There are splinter groups that definitely believe it hasn't happened yet or has been undone, but they're the minority.
