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Amongst Us Mafia

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Nictis said:
Hmm. I was kinda holding back from it because I wanted to see how other people might want to raise the topic, but why do you think that they'd be more likely to pull a sabotage if there isn't an elimination?
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It's free Night information for Crewmates in a situation where the Imposters cannot guarantee a kill far more often than in a standard game. Trying to play optimally by no-killing on Day 1 and allowing Night info to flow will lead to less actual information gleaned from Night 1, along with heightened odds for an Imposter kill to actually happen. I think we're better served killing on Day 1 so we guarantee something to work with by Day 2, even if it might not be as strong as what Night information can provide.
 
NemoMarx said:
However, as a nitpick, does anyone have only 2 quals? I don't, and the rules say:

" Each Task is assigned one Crewmate, who receives a Qualification for that task. Then, all Crewmates are randomly assigned two additional Qualifications, rerolling any duplicate results (no player will have multiple quals for the same task). "

And the example pm has three quals listed. So I thought everyone had 3 quals?
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There are more players than qualifications is the thing. All players will have 3-4 tasks though, since General is given to everybody. 3 Crewmates should only have General plus two others, though.
 
-Rosen said:
It's free Night information for Crewmates in a situation where the Imposters cannot guarantee a kill far more often than in a standard game. Trying to play optimally by no-killing on Day 1 and allowing Night info to flow will lead to less actual information gleaned from Night 1, along with heightened odds for an Imposter kill to actually happen. I think we're better served killing on Day 1 so we guarantee something to work with by Day 2, even if it might not be as strong as what Night information can provide.
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That... Didn't actually answer the question.
 
Terrabrand said:
@AlphaDelta, meanwhile, has one of the higher post counts, yet nearly all of it is just engaging with the color discussion.
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... Of which most of them (4 of 6) were in the opening hours. This is a really flimsy case, but I can't say that I wouldn't poke at something of similar magnitude at hour 24 or so on D1.

Point taken, though.

Terrabrand said:
Hmm?

11-3=8-3=5 lylo.

11-2=9-3=6 lylo.

Hmm. You're correct that if we no lynch it's functionally the same, on examination. Hadn't really caught that scum get to both kill each phase.

At least, assuming two myslynches. Not sure if we manage to catch scum early. This is, looking at it, somewhat swingy in that regard, since scum ability to cut down player count goes down as scum count goes down. Hmm.
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... Which makes getting one scum even more important than usual. Not going to bother engaging with the mech argument for either.

Nictis said:
That... Didn't actually answer the question.
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I think N1 sabotage is probably a given, because of the cool down, and because I think it leaks less information.

I'm mostly pondering the question of countering sabotage combos. I'm not entirely sure how Reactor interacts with Night 2, but that's another interaction that could result in a sudden swing.
 
NemoMarx said:
I guess nothing in the set up tells us the distribution of roles - we just know no one has duplicates themselves, so it's possible one task might be more common in quals than others, which is technically a worry. I can't think of anyway we could tell if that's the case, though?

And if we did know about it, the Imposters could use that, so it's best if we try to avoid people knowing, as far as I can tell. (Especially without power role stuff, it's not like anyone can help you if you are important not to kill, yeah?)
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I think I agree. Giving Imposters information about what qualifications we have is a bad idea. It narrows the field of where they can safely 'claim' to be in as well as gives an idea of where one individual might be heading for a safer kill.

Something to keep in mind, if you find someone is dead at a task location who was not dead the night before that means someone else at the task you are at is an imposter.

Aka--
Red, Blue, Yellow, and White all go to Weapons. Red kills Blue. Yellow would know that one of White or Red is imposter.

AlphaDelta said:
I think N1 sabotage is probably a given, because of the cool down, and because I think it leaks less information.
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If so what sabatage do you expect scum to preform and why?
 
@-Rosen I am a bit unsure about information gained by a d1 nightkill, considering that we don't get any details about the dead person, neither qualification nor if they are a imposter or not and so it is just the declarations against that person that we can use later on.
 
mesonoxian said:
There don't seem to be any power roles outside the scum.
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Or from another perspective, we all have a vaguely Watcher-esque power role. But yes, no variation in capabilities other than "how many tasks can you go to."
Shadell said:
With 11 players, it seems like no killing D1 is somewhat disinsentivized as, with each scum having a kill, it looks like it likely leaves the game ending at the same time anyway?
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Terrabrand said:
Hmm?

11-3=8-3=5 lylo.

11-2=9-3=6 lylo.

Hmm. You're correct that if we no lynch it's functionally the same, on examination. Hadn't really caught that scum get to both kill each phase.

At least, assuming two myslynches. Not sure if we manage to catch scum early. This is, looking at it, somewhat swingy in that regard, since scum ability to cut down player count goes down as scum count goes down. Hmm.
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That also assumes that the Scum are able to get a double kill each night, which I don't think they necessarily will be able to do - if they show up at a task without any other players they can't kill at all, and if they show up at one with a moderate number of other players then they're suddenly in a very small pool for the possible culprits, which is a risk I don't think they'd want to take at least early.

Like, in Cyri's example scenario above, we'd have a pool of just three people within which to find Scum - between that and day-solving I think it'd give us pretty good odds of pinning the culprit. And even more so if, say, White hadn't shown up to that task since then Red would be basically Gladiator-ing themselves with Yellow - not what I'd call a winning Scum move.
-Rosen said:
I also really don't like this post, because this is very much putting words in someone else's mouth to justify a serious vote. I agree with the idea of Nemo not engaging in the mechanical discussion (though I'm biased against it, so I don't really think anything of it here), but there was never any direct statement from her suggesting any kind of random push, only a passing comment about it.
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Ah, whoops, I had been thinking of it as a suggestion 'cause of this bit from Terra:
Terrabrand said:
Nemo, who had the suggestion which seems a bit meanspirited to jump on.
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But you're right that reviewing the post itself it's not really a call to specific action so much as an observation. Between that and...
NemoMarx said:
It didn't seem that interesting, honestly? There's no compelling reason to claim Quals, people already pointed out why. Town doesn't gain much from it - theoretically we could try and coordinate where people are going in the night phase but that's not very realistic or important early, I don't think, and bumping into people and not getting killed seems like it's going to be important, if the actual game is anything to go from.
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...what I'd consider to be a fairly reasonable response, I'll go ahead and drop that vote.

[X] Null
 
Shadell said:
@LostDeviljho what information does town gain about sabotage? E.g., if scum does doors N1, will town know scum did doors that night, or will it only be revealed N2? Scum can only sabotage every other night, does this mean that scum can trade off alternating nights (or double up one night) or collectively they can only sabotage once every other night?

If reactor is pulled, will town know who did and did not visit the reactor that night? Does reactor count as a valid target for ambushes?
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Town is informed of a Sabotage once it's effects start, so in the case of Doors N2.

Sabotage cool down is global, do sabotage N1 prevents another sabotage until N3.

Everyone at reactor sees everyone else at reactor as though it were a mutual task.

Yes.

Scia said:
Also @LostDeviljho does reactor count as a task for doors?
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No, nor could they apply it at the same time as both are sabotages.
 
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AlphaDelta said:
... Of which most of them (4 of 6) were in the opening hours. This is a really flimsy case, but I can't say that I wouldn't poke at something of similar magnitude at hour 24 or so on D1.

Point taken, though.
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Never said it was a wrong reason, just it was one I felt better to be jumping on than the other available cases (either because there was less of a case or because eg with -rosen I want to let them actually play the game or would otherwise feel bad about d1 voting. Don't feel like d1 voting the newbie, for example)
 
Nictis said:
That... Didn't actually answer the question.
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I'd say it does. If we no vote, scum sabotages by Night to prevent Town from getting free information via people going to their tasks. Scum doesn't want us to be able to get information with us not having lost anybody, so the easiest solution is to actively take it away. Sure, it takes away their ability to sabotage on Night 2, but it makes Day 2 much closer to Day 1 in terms of information available.

So yes, I'm pretty damn sure scum should just always sabotage Night 1 in the event of a Day 1 no-vote.
 
-Rosen said:
I'd say it does. If we no vote, scum sabotages by Night to prevent Town from getting free information via people going to their tasks. Scum doesn't want us to be able to get information with us not having lost anybody, so the easiest solution is to actively take it away. Sure, it takes away their ability to sabotage on Night 2, but it makes Day 2 much closer to Day 1 in terms of information available.

So yes, I'm pretty damn sure scum should just always sabotage Night 1 in the event of a Day 1 no-vote.
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Yeah. No.

That doesn't answer the question at all because the question was "why is it more likely make them sabotage N1" and nothing you said is actually different from whether we vote someone out or not Day 1.
 
Scia said:
@-Rosen I am a bit unsure about information gained by a d1 nightkill, considering that we don't get any details about the dead person, neither qualification nor if they are a imposter or not and so it is just the declarations against that person that we can use later on.
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The nonexistent details of the flip aren't what's important here; it's how the wagon materialized, and the inevitable result of the wagons themselves. That is the information we can get in any game, and information we can still rely on in this one.
 
I'll talk about it more later, I'm busy tonight, but I think you and Cyricubed need to reread the mechanics. Don't have time to get into it now.
 
Nictis said:
Yeah. No.

That doesn't answer the question at all because the question was "why is it more likely make them sabotage N1" and nothing you said is actually different from whether we vote someone out or not Day 1.
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The difference is we have the materialization of wagons in the event of an actual vote occurring. A much more chaotic EoD1 will result in a lot of good information to look back on for the future of the game, whereas if we resolve to no-vote on Day 1, we are left with nothing, and need to rely on what happens during Night 1 to go into Day 2 with anything concrete. What happens if we have to rely on Night info? Scum is going to sabotage.

I understand that the game is majority voting, but I'd rather try to vote someone out early in order to have definite material to look back on (regardless of if a vote actually happens or not, I just want wagons to be moving honestly), than try to roll the dice on getting good Night 1 info.
 
Nictis said:
I'll talk about it more later, I'm busy tonight, but I think you and Cyricubed need to reread the mechanics. Don't have time to get into it now.
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I'm rather confused here but I look forward to the discussion.

-Rosen said:
The difference is we have the materialization of wagons in the event of an actual vote occurring. A much more chaotic EoD1 will result in a lot of good information to look back on for the future of the game, whereas if we resolve to no-vote on Day 1, we are left with nothing, and need to rely on what happens during Night 1 to go into Day 2 with anything concrete. What happens if we have to rely on Night info? Scum is going to sabotage.
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I mean, The thing about this is that Scum is indeed likely to sabotage. But reasonably speaking we actually still get a reasonable level of info with Sabatoges. One of which always guarantee's we find the body.
 
Okay so, the main takeaways from the mechanics that I would honestly prefer to stay quiet about but I doubt that I'll be alive come tomorrow so I'm mentioning it now.

Bodymechanics: The body is not found until the night after the kill takes place, if someone visits the location. So a N1 kill cannot be reported until Day Three, if at all.
Imposter Mechanics: If the Imposter is attempting a sabotage then they cannot kill. If the Imposter attempts an Ambush but fails, they cannot kill. If they trigger a sabotage or miss a hallway kill they will visit a task and be seen there.

The most important details here are that we won't have actionable info from N1 until later in the game, and Imposters aren't going to doublekill every night.

Also important is that killing Day 1 cuts down on the info we have Day 2 and does actually push LyLo a full cycle closer. So yeah, I'm saying we skip vote today and am pretty strongly side-eying @-Rosen here over the push that no-elim raises the sabotage chances and feeding me my no-elim post on it.
 
Nictis said:
Okay so, the main takeaways from the mechanics that I would honestly prefer to stay quiet about but I doubt that I'll be alive come tomorrow so I'm mentioning it now.

Bodymechanics: The body is not found until the night after the kill takes place, if someone visits the location. So a N1 kill cannot be reported until Day Three, if at all.
Imposter Mechanics: If the Imposter is attempting a sabotage then they cannot kill. If the Imposter attempts an Ambush but fails, they cannot kill. If they trigger a sabotage or miss a hallway kill they will visit a task and be seen there.

The most important details here are that we won't have actionable info from N1 until later in the game, and Imposters aren't going to doublekill every night.

Also important is that killing Day 1 cuts down on the info we have Day 2 and does actually push LyLo a full cycle closer. So yeah, I'm saying we skip vote today and am pretty strongly side-eying @-Rosen here over the push that no-elim raises the sabotage chances and feeding me my no-elim post on it.
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I mean they can only target you if they know your task , and if its a ambush kill in the hallways we get the info at daystart

" If the targeted player attempts that task, you kill them en-route in the hallway. Corpses in the hallway are immediately found at the start of Day Phase, but do not give location information. "
 
Scia said:
I mean they can only target you if they know your task , and if its a ambush kill in the hallways we get the info at daystart

" If the targeted player attempts that task, you kill them en-route in the hallway. Corpses in the hallway are immediately found at the start of Day Phase, but do not give location information. "
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That's true for the ambush kills. In order to do an ambush they need to successfully guess at where a specific player will be going, for the regular kill they just pick someone else in the room with them.
 
Nictis said:
Okay so, the main takeaways from the mechanics that I would honestly prefer to stay quiet about but I doubt that I'll be alive come tomorrow so I'm mentioning it now.

Bodymechanics: The body is not found until the night after the kill takes place, if someone visits the location. So a N1 kill cannot be reported until Day Three, if at all.
Imposter Mechanics: If the Imposter is attempting a sabotage then they cannot kill. If the Imposter attempts an Ambush but fails, they cannot kill. If they trigger a sabotage or miss a hallway kill they will visit a task and be seen there.

The most important details here are that we won't have actionable info from N1 until later in the game, and Imposters aren't going to doublekill every night.

Also important is that killing Day 1 cuts down on the info we have Day 2 and does actually push LyLo a full cycle closer. So yeah, I'm saying we skip vote today and am pretty strongly side-eying @-Rosen here over the push that no-elim raises the sabotage chances and feeding me my no-elim post on it.
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That's... not really true though, Nictis.

We only get hard confirmation at that point, but if, 24 hours into a day, someone is still not responding, then it's safe to assume 'dead or scum'. And if they are then later seen elsewhere, scum it is?
 
I think it might be a good idea to note who you encounter at each task during the night phase during the next day phase, so that we can set up who was where, and who _wasn_t there
 
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