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Alt History ideas, rec and general discussion thread

Are there any interesting non-nuclear Third World War - you know, tanks streaming through the Fulda Gap, that sorta thing - timelines?
 
I'm looking for stories where entire nations/civilizations are uplifted by one person. They can be immortal, have magical powers, or just possess future knowledge which puts them head and shoulders above the rest, it doesn't really matter. I'm in the mood to indulge in an unapologetic power fantasy.
 
What if the Finnish Reds won the Finnish Civil War?

The Reds were backed by the Russian SFSR at the time, so I would imagine that a Finnish SSR would rise from the victory. They might even join the USSR as a result.

This would make events of WWII very different. The Winter War between Finland and the USSR was the whole reason that Hitler decided to invade the USSR. With no war to lose, Nazi Germany and the USSR could remain Axis powers and fight together. The whole war could have been won by the Axis.

Would you agree or disagree?
 
Red victory would require major changes.

Even so, actually joining USSR would be... unlikely. A lot of socialist and communist didn't want to actually return to Russian rule, even if it was nominally communist and equal. Finnish Socialist Workers Republic (not SSR) would most likely stay.
 
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TheCourtofTalons said:
The Winter War between Finland and the USSR was the whole reason that Hitler decided to invade the USSR. With no war to lose, Nazi Germany and the USSR could remain Axis powers and fight together. The whole war could have been won by the Axis.
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?????

What the fuck are you talking about? The USSR wasn't an "Axis power", and the reason Hitler invaded them was because the Nazis believed that the Soviets were inferior subhumans who should be exterminated so that the Germans can acquire more "living space" in Eastern Europe.
 
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TheCourtofTalons said:
What if the Finnish Reds won the Finnish Civil War?

The Reds were backed by the Russian SFSR at the time, so I would imagine that a Finnish SSR would rise from the victory. They might even join the USSR as a result.

This would make events of WWII very different. The Winter War between Finland and the USSR was the whole reason that Hitler decided to invade the USSR. With no war to lose, Nazi Germany and the USSR could remain Axis powers and fight together. The whole war could have been won by the Axis.

Would you agree or disagree?
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This is straight up nazi propaganda. Come on, you can do better than "Hitler only invaded because you invaded the Finns first".

Nazism was both hellbent on the destruction of communism and hellbent on acquiring lebensraum at the expense of the slavic people. Its treaties with the USSR were always planned to be temporary to allow its rearmament before the final confrontation. Hitler didn't spend a whole career harping about "judeo-bolshevism" to ignore the USSR.
 
Hitler was always going to invade the USSR the Finnish War just convinced him that he didn't need to spend time building up strength or crushing the British first.
 
Now, obviously, as Random Member has pointed out, a Red Finland could not possibly lead to the USSR "becoming an Axis Power" (what part of 'Anti-Communist Pact' do you not understand), but, just maybe, it might butterfly away the Nazis entirely. Or, alternatively, make them even more rabid.

Bear with me for a moment, and bear with any mistakes I make. A red Finland resulting from the Finnish Civil War will probably ally with the nascent RSFSR, and help them deal with the various reactionary uprisings and interventions going on as a result of the Russian Civil War. (The nearby British intervention at Murmansk might be driven back earlier, for example.) The additional red Finnish forces could shorten the Russian Civil War, averting some of the resulting devastation. At the very least, the USSR is in a stronger position going into the 20s, and may very well avoid Stalin. If things go substantially better, the RSFSR might have enough forces freed up to better spread the revolution in Eastern Europe. Most likely no more than the Baltic States, Poland, and perhaps a rump Hungary plus Slovakia. But even that much will significantly alter the geopolitical calculus for Eastern and Central Europe; who knows how the politics of Germany might be affected?
 
Heavy doubt. After civil war ends, Reds would have all their focus on maintaining their power. Unless their victory is absolute victory where they genocide half of Finland, there will be resistance left. The Jaegers, for example, are not going to just give up and join Reds, they are going to go to the ground and keep fighting.

Furthermore, Red Finland is not going to be in position to send troops to any large scale combat, White Finland was barely able to send some troops to help Estonia after the war, Red Finland is going be equally unable to really do much for Soviet Union.

There is also the fact that Reds are not automatically sympathetic to Soviets. Original name for Finnish Socialist Worker's Republic was simply Finnish Republic. When Lenin told leaders of Red Finland to change it, they received a lot of criticism for "bowing to Moscow". Intent among Reds in Finland was not to join Russia in glorious communist federation: it was to create a socialist state in Finland based on Central European socialist thinking and... wait for it... nationalism.

Indeed, Finnish Socialist Workers Republic would have aimed at expanding its territory. Pro-Bolsheviks were a very distinct minority among the Finnish socialist and communist, who looked more to towards Central Europe and it's socialist movements than towards Marxist-Leninist ideas.

To give some idea, idea of "dictatorship of proletariat" was entirely absent from the draft constitution, and constitution was drawn closer to constitutions of Switzerland, France and United States than the USSR.

If FSWR joins USSR, it is through conquest by USSR, not by peaceful means. FSWR founders and members were not fond of idea of joining USSR, and later when Winter War came a lot of former Red Guard chose to fight against Soviets, not join them as Soviets expected.

Finnish Reds were not Bolsheviks. They were socialist and sought democratic socialism, not dictatorship of proletariat.
 
PT12 said:
Hitler was always going to invade the USSR the Finnish War just convinced him that he didn't need to spend time building up strength or crushing the British first.
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IIRC invading later than when they did would have meant invading with next to no fuel supplies and would have faced a more organized, better equipped Red Army as IRL the Nazis during a major restructuring of the Red Army.
 
Mandemon said:
The Jaegers, for example, are not going to just give up and join Reds, they are going to go to the ground and keep fighting.
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Ah yes, because the far-right is so good at guerilla warfare. They never just give up after being defeated in conventional battle. That's why Operation Werwolf was such a huge deal in Germany following WW2, and why the Bolsheviks had to deal with decades of White terrorism even after they won the Russian Civil War.
 
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Geedubs said:
h yes, because the far-right is so good at guerilla warfare. They never just give up after being defeated in conventional battle. That's why Operation Werwolf was such a huge deal in Germany following WW2, and why the Bolsheviks had to deal with decades of White terrorism even after they won the Russian Civil War.
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You... do understand that unlike the Reds, Jaegers are actually trained in warfare? Do you know what a Jaeger movement is? You are aware that Jaegers return to Finland marked moment when war was effectively over for the Reds, as Whites now had a solid core of experienced and trained soldiers who could pass their knowledge to recruits?

These are people who had served in Imperial German Army as light infantry against the Bolsheviks, whose entire goal was to assist Finland in violent struggle for independence, until it turned out there was no need. These people are the best trained and experienced troops in all of Finland at this time. These are people who, moment they sniffed a possible threat of USSR, started creating caches to conduct a guerrilla warfare.

Or are you just doing emotional "must reject any idea of anti-socialist entity having any skills"? I am no talking about Suojeluskunnat, I am talking about the Jaegers.

You are aware that this is Finland, not Russia, we are talking about?
 
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Mandemon said:
You... do understand that unlike the Reds, Jaegers are actually trained in warfare? Do you know what a Jaeger movement is? You are aware that Jaegers return to Finland marked moment when war was effectively over for the Reds, as Whites now had a solid core of experienced and trained soldiers who could pass their knowledge to recruits?
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That's a mark against the feasibility of the scenario certainly, but given that the premise is the Finnish Reds somehow winning I fail to see how this is relevant.

And no, I can't say I know much about the Finnish Jägers. I still fail to see how relevant their skills are in a scenario premised upon the idea of the government they backed losing the civil war, though. Can you present a case for why their guerilla skills/preparation would be effective in a scenario where the Whites somehow lost?


All that said, I do agree that a Red Finnish government wouldn't be particularly friendly with the Bolsheviks. I expect a scenario akin to that of Menshevik-controlled Georgia/Transcaucasia would occur.
 
Geedubs said:
That's a mark against the feasibility of the scenario certainly, but given that the premise is the Finnish Reds somehow winning I fail to see how this is relevant.
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Which is why I said earlier that there has to be major changes. During the civil war, Reds weren't the small group of rebels: they controlled the more populous and industrial south. They still lost because their command & control, training and co-operation was seriously lacking.

You have change major parts of Finnish history to make Red victory possible. Not just "they won crucial battle".

Geedubs said:
And no, I can't say I know much about the Finnish Jägers. I still fail to see how relevant their skills are in a scenario premised upon the idea of the government they backed losing the civil war, though. Can you present a case for why their guerilla skills/preparation would be effective in a scenario where the Whites somehow lost?
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Again: trained as elite light infantry. These are people are already anti-socialist (not far-right like you claimed), and just because force is defeated does not mean everyone instantly puts down their weapons. Case in point: French, Dutch and Danish resistance against Nazis. Finland has shit ton of forest in which to hide, and these are people trained in light infantry tactics and have actual experience in it. Finnish Civil War was not grand warfare of epic proportions, most of it was light infantry skirmishes across the line with urban combat engaged in major cities, especially Tampere.

Hell, during Winter War these tactics were what put that mighty Red Army on backfoot and stuck in forests, and power of White Finland was in north, not in industrial and populous south like with Red Finland.

The fact that you admit that you don't know about Jäger Movement, yet tell a Finn that they don't matter, is rather telling that you are objecting to this on basis of "anti-socialist can't have skills" rather than actual historical basis. Can you give any basis on why a large group of trained and experienced elite light infantry trained in skirmishes and guerrilla warfare won't be able to conduct such warfare against a force that can barely control its own territory?

Actually, better yet: Do you even know anything about Finnish Civil War and its participants?
 
Mandemon said:
Actually, better yet: Do you even know anything about Finnish Civil War and its participants?
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No.

I saw you make a point that I vaguely disliked, and because I have been in a bad mood today I decided to take a shot at you and try to dismiss your point - despite knowing nothing about the subject - through the veil of a sarcastic joke. I then made the rhetorical mistake of trying to respond to you further in a more genuine way - instead of just abandoning the conversation once I'd had my fun - despite having already set a hostile tone to the discussion. You, rather naturally, took advantage of this to call me out on not knowing anything on the subject, and I have chosen to fess up to this all due to seeing no way to get out of the corner I backed into.

I really do need to get out of the habit of treating every conversation on this website like a rhetorical knife fight, but that's no excuse. Sorry about this.


For what its worth I am sincerely skeptical of an anti-communist nationalist paramilitary trained by Imperial Germany not being extremely reactionary though, and would enjoy seeing some elaboration on that.
 
Geedubs said:
For what its worth I am sincerely skeptical of an anti-communist nationalist paramilitary trained by Imperial Germany not being extremely reactionary though, and would enjoy seeing some elaboration on that.
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You have to remember history here. These people were trained to fight Imperial Russia, and then fought Bolsheviks when they took power. Jaeger movement was born from Russification attempts done to Finland, where freedoms and priviledges that Finland had enjoyed previous were systematically taken away and Finnish identity was suppressed.

Their primary goal was free Finland, and part of their anti-social stance was that they felt socialist would reunite with Russia. I have already elaborated why this was pretty much pointless fear, but hindsight is 20/20. We have today advantage of actually getting to read the plans and drafts made by those in charge of FSWR.

With the defeat of Red Guard of Finland, worst you can say about Jaeger movement was that most of them advocated for closer ties with Germany and establishment of constitutional monarchy. When both of those fell through due... well, Germany losing the first world war, that was pretty much it.

At later date, a number of former members of Jaeger movement did join Lapua movement, but about as much stayed out of Lapua Movement, so it can not be said that Jaeger movement as a whole were reactionary. Lapua movement was composed from pretty much every extreme element of anyone who fought on White Finlands side, with core made out of disgruntled Civil Guard members who didn't like that after the war, military had been separated from the Civil Guard instead of maintaining Civil Guard as the military. Further evidence that Jaegers were not some unreasonable reactionaries, is that during Mäntsälä Rebellion, the rebels stood down when orders.

To elaborate here on Mäntsälä Rebellion, rebels (around 500) wanted to elevate president Svinhufvud to position of dictator and expel all socialist and communist in the country (shocking twist: socialist had actually gained a lot of power back after their defeat, while communist had been banned). He refused and issued a radio broadcast where he gave orders to Civil Guard members of the rebellion to leave their weapons and go home. This order was obeyed, and whole rebellion ended in just few days without bloodshed or shots fired.

As I noted, a lot of jaegers also stayed out of the Lapua movement as well as Mäntsälä Rebellion, feeling their loyalty was to Finland and its Republic, now that attempt to form constitutional monarchy had failed.
 
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Mandemon said:
Which is why I said earlier that there has to be major changes. During the civil war, Reds weren't the small group of rebels: they controlled the more populous and industrial south. They still lost because their command & control, training and co-operation was seriously lacking.

You have change major parts of Finnish history to make Red victory possible. Not just "they won crucial battle".



Again: trained as elite light infantry. These are people are already anti-socialist (not far-right like you claimed)
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That's usually a distinction without difference in a civil war because the kind of strife is not exactly fertile ground for progressive liberals.
 
Is it weird I want to see ScottishMongol's Covenant: Abrahamic Fantasy to crossover with both a Warhammer 40K style space setting and Hazbin Hotel/Helluva Boss respectively?
 
DracoDracul said:
That's usually a distinction without difference in a civil war because the kind of strife is not exactly fertile ground for progressive liberals.
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And yet, out from it came a progressive liberal state even though spearheaded by people who this forum would( and probably eventually will) call far-right reactionaries.
 
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