- Location
- Pacific Northwest
Napalm isn't only a hot burning incendiary, but it sticks to everything it touches. Let's not even think of the effect on civilian personnel during a commuter rush hour.
All Wo-rk and No Play: An Abyssal's Trials in the Job Market (KC)
- Thread starter PyrrhicSteel
- Start date
Napalm isn't only a hot burning incendiary, but it sticks to everything it touches. Let's not even think of the effect on civilian personnel during a commuter rush hour.
- Location
- Warszawa Polska
I have a world-building question, sort off...
How big of a deal is a single Fleet carrier on a strategic scale in this story?
So how many Fleet Carrier Ship-Girls are there and how big of an impact do they make?
I'm asking because the answer will change how big of a reaction would we expect from the humans.
The last chapter suggest there are a lot of full-on CV ship girls. It also in a roundabout way suggest they are not that big of a deal.
So if a single CV is of strategic importance then yes, The President would be informed and should be in the story(in some way).
If a Ship-girl importance is more on the game mechanics level. As in you can get away conducting whole campaigns without air cover. Then a single Abyssal CV is not important enough to trouble the civilian branch of the government.
So is she a Cuban Missile Crisis level of importance, or a ballistic missile sub on an everyday patrol, sort of meh?
How big of a deal is a single Fleet carrier on a strategic scale in this story?
So how many Fleet Carrier Ship-Girls are there and how big of an impact do they make?
I'm asking because the answer will change how big of a reaction would we expect from the humans.
The last chapter suggest there are a lot of full-on CV ship girls. It also in a roundabout way suggest they are not that big of a deal.
So if a single CV is of strategic importance then yes, The President would be informed and should be in the story(in some way).
If a Ship-girl importance is more on the game mechanics level. As in you can get away conducting whole campaigns without air cover. Then a single Abyssal CV is not important enough to trouble the civilian branch of the government.
So is she a Cuban Missile Crisis level of importance, or a ballistic missile sub on an everyday patrol, sort of meh?
- Location
- Australia
Your presumptions either way would be true if Trinitite was part of an Abyssal Fleet, but she's not. Trinitite is essentially a missing suitcase nuke, because she's somewhere in the CONUS and could level a fairly major portion of a city with no warning if she's not found.
Sightedjt
Everlasting Flames
I feel like it bears noting that as always, it doesn't need to be 200% accurate in how things are written.
This is quite clearly a bit of writing where the focus is largely on abyssal shenanigans rather than intense action as the military try to find an infiltrator before disaster strikes.
As such, "seems decent enough/ plausible" is all the story really needs to hit as far as accuracy goes on the military side of things, and trying to go full hyperrealism is likely to take away from the abyssal shenanigans we're here for.
This is quite clearly a bit of writing where the focus is largely on abyssal shenanigans rather than intense action as the military try to find an infiltrator before disaster strikes.
As such, "seems decent enough/ plausible" is all the story really needs to hit as far as accuracy goes on the military side of things, and trying to go full hyperrealism is likely to take away from the abyssal shenanigans we're here for.
It really doesn't. One nuke going walkabout inside the USA would be terrifying full stop even though the USA has 1,600 deployed and 6,185 total.
A surprise attack from a CV against a major city or base is going to be devastating and result in massive causalities.
That being said a quick count gives ~60 CVs in WWII with only around half that number being comparable in displacement (+-5,000t) to an Essex. So Trinitite should be in a fairly elite club even if all the CV Shipgirls have been summoned while there still being enough for her not to obviously stand out.
Trinitite's threat assessment might currently be a little lower than normal for a Wo, as the Navy knows about her collapsed flight deck.
They are probably on the lookout for suspicious disappearances of supplies that could be used to repair a carrier, too.
Fortunately for Trinitite, repairs don't seem to be high on her list of priorities. I guess she's too distracted by everything to care about the pain? That might change once she has settled into the routine of a dull, boring job and has time to dwell on it.
They are probably on the lookout for suspicious disappearances of supplies that could be used to repair a carrier, too.
Fortunately for Trinitite, repairs don't seem to be high on her list of priorities. I guess she's too distracted by everything to care about the pain? That might change once she has settled into the routine of a dull, boring job and has time to dwell on it.
- Location
- Warszawa Polska
You both overestimating a destructive power a WWII CV could bring to the table, and at the same time underestimating it to a ludicrous degree.
We do not know the compliment of a fully stocked Wo-class, has in this story but going by a generous assumption a Wo would have 100 planes and stocks for each being able to conduct 5 sorties, and again generous assumption each can carry 1t of payload.
Her unhindered damage output is 500t of bombs and she would do it over a course of 12h.
A Re-class firing its 9 main guns and emptying her magazines would deliver 1350t of explosives and would do it in 90 minutes.
Also, let's face it 3 sorties per day is an outstandingly good performance, my assumption was for her pulling off 5 a day.
Her alpha strike will not be more than 30 planes. So she could at best/worst deliver under 30t of bombs. Her firepower/threat assessment is in the same ball bark as single missile destroyer firing cruiser missiles with conventional tips.
So no, she is not a nuke, not even close.
She, however, can deliver it with pinpoint accuracy in 200NMI radius, That's 360km or 240 miles.
She is no one nuke, she is 500 individual bomb strikes.
As for assuming her intentions. We the reader know her intentions. The people in the story do not.
To them, she could just as likely be a deserter as an infiltrator with a specific mission. They cannot assume the best-case scenario so they have to assume the worst.
As for my question how many CV there are. I asked because of Tirpitz. A single ship confined to her anchor point for most of the war diverted multiple fast battleships to be on constant standby to counter it.
So our single Wo-Class will divert assets to act as a counter.
If there are 10 CV in the US Navy ship girl corps, diverting 3 of them to be on standby more or less changed the strategic balance of power in the Pacific. She takes up 30% of US Navy to counter her.
If we are talking in numbers like the US Navy has 24 Essex sisters, 3 Midway sisters 3 Yorktown sisters, 2 Lexington sisters plus Ranger and Wasp. All units that individually are a match to her,(same ballpark) So 34 Girls. Diverting 3 of them to counter her is not that big of a commitment. I only listed full blown carriers, I did not count Independence and Saipan class light CV that have half or only courter of Wo class capabilities. Also Escort Carriers don't count as the planes operating off them are limited in their payload and type.
So if there are
Comparable to her I count from the top of my head.
US Navy 24. (17 Essex that was commissioned before the war ended, 2 Lexington, 3 Yorktown, Ranger and Wasp)
Royal Navy 10(3 Furious, Ark Royal and 6 Illustrious)
IJN 10(Akagi, Kaga, Soryu, Hiryu, 2 Shokaku, Taiho and 3 Unryu)
Royal Navy 10(3 Furious, Ark Royal and 6 Illustrious)
IJN 10(Akagi, Kaga, Soryu, Hiryu, 2 Shokaku, Taiho and 3 Unryu)
So yes she is a big deal any way you count it.
My question was how big of a deal is she?
Is she change on the big board on a strategic level, or is she a rounding error in the grand scheme of things.
The story seems to suggest, she is not that big of a deal. It suggests she is one forty forth of the expected total of enemy firepower or something similar.
Trinitate herself does not think of herself as that important, nor do the people we seen in the story so far consider her that big of a deal on the strategic level.
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PyrrhicSteel
Look natural.
- Location
- Idaho
Haven't been able to contribute to this conversation due to school projects, but since it's helping with brainstorming and since I love some good conversation I'll try to give some quick estimates:
It's different for nations in exile (Singapore, South Africa, Vietnam) or who're under existential threat (Taiwan, Australia, Iran), but for the JMSDF and US Navy I'm operating under the estimate that their conventional naval assets are roughly 60% effective, between refits, repairs, losses, reserves, and replacements. Shipgirl strength for the two navies is much higher, at roughly 80% or 85%.
That puts a napkin-estimate of US Naval carriers which are available at 19-20, with about 7 steel-hulled fleet carriers, assuming not enough F-35s are available to use the Wasps (poorly) in a similar role. This force has to:
I probably forgot a few duties in there, too, while others might be achievable without a nearby carrier (keeping the Central american coast open, for example, could probably be achieved with enough aircraft, land-based artillery, and small vessels, requiring one carrier in Panama itself but not much beyond that). But it gives you an idea of how thin the Navy's spread right now.
Setting aside a few carriers might be possible, but without some good excuses the International Community will certainly notice.
EDIT: This might also explain why the JSDF and USN were so willing to hit the Jellyfish Princess once they figured out how to get her to switch sides. Saratoga's less than helpful with her 1927 airwing at the moment, but that'll change and the Navy wants everyone back ASAP.
It's different for nations in exile (Singapore, South Africa, Vietnam) or who're under existential threat (Taiwan, Australia, Iran), but for the JMSDF and US Navy I'm operating under the estimate that their conventional naval assets are roughly 60% effective, between refits, repairs, losses, reserves, and replacements. Shipgirl strength for the two navies is much higher, at roughly 80% or 85%.
That puts a napkin-estimate of US Naval carriers which are available at 19-20, with about 7 steel-hulled fleet carriers, assuming not enough F-35s are available to use the Wasps (poorly) in a similar role. This force has to:
- Keep the Central Princess contained on Oahu
- Keep the "Seattle Express" strong enough to discourage raiding fleets
- Guard Cuba so no one has to deal with a Guantanamo Bay Princess
- Keep the Panama canal- and a route to it on the coast of central america- open.
- Prevent Abyssals in the Bahamas from striking the east coast and it's vital shipyards- again.
- Guard the West Coast against the rare raiding force.
- Maintain a fleet in Japan capable of preforming raids into the south pacific so abyssal numbers don't snowball too much.
- Assist the Royal Navy in maintaining the GIUK gap
- Hold Fiji, American Samoa, and French Polynesia so convoys to Australia can continue fairly unmolested
- Assist Israel, Egypt, and Saudi Arabia in the Mediterranean, Red Sea, and Gulf of Aden, along with the Multinational collation that's fighting in the Med (EDIT: with 5 minutes of hindsight, putting unarmored US CVs in the med when there's several armored CVs from other nations around seems like a poor idea)
- Provide token assistance in raids against Princess along the coast of Africa, in the Indian ocean, and around Antarctica
I probably forgot a few duties in there, too, while others might be achievable without a nearby carrier (keeping the Central american coast open, for example, could probably be achieved with enough aircraft, land-based artillery, and small vessels, requiring one carrier in Panama itself but not much beyond that). But it gives you an idea of how thin the Navy's spread right now.
Setting aside a few carriers might be possible, but without some good excuses the International Community will certainly notice.
EDIT: This might also explain why the JSDF and USN were so willing to hit the Jellyfish Princess once they figured out how to get her to switch sides. Saratoga's less than helpful with her 1927 airwing at the moment, but that'll change and the Navy wants everyone back ASAP.
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- Location
- USA
Does this factor in the USNs dozens of light and escort carriers? Or are they stuck on convoy duty for the most part? And how many U Boats does Germany have right now?
Have the three incomplete European carriers come back? Those being Graf Zeppelin, Berean, and Aquila.
Have the three incomplete European carriers come back? Those being Graf Zeppelin, Berean, and Aquila.
- Location
- Warszawa Polska
What does the Royal Navy, and to far lesser extent the Marine National and Regia Marina doing?
Royal Navy alone is 10 fast CV strong.
Why?
There is nothing there of strategic importance to guard.
Greenland Iceland United Kingdom Gap. Has very little to do with shipping lanes between US and EU.
Trade between Russia and US plus EU would go via land routes.
Considering Japanese have a fleet half the size and half the commitment of US Navy. They are capable of holding the area.
The list you gave implies US Navy have commitments it really should not have.
If they have Enemy in Oahu and Bahamas, those are the points of focus.
Its Bearn and it was far from not completed. It was very crappy BB to CV conversion from the 1920's and was used for convoy escort duties in WWII.
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PyrrhicSteel
Look natural.
- Location
- Idaho
Graf Zeppelin's alive and well, although she'd had to borrow her air wing from other nation's carriers. Aquila is one of the few Abyssal Princesses that's been flipped so far.
The Mediterranean's a mess, and I simply don't know enough about the geography and the war there to give a real description of what's going on there, but I have a rough picture:
Abyssals hold the coast of Algeria, Tunisa, and Libya, as well as Malta, Sardinia, Crete, parts of the Spanish coast, and Cyprus, meaning UN naval forces in the Med are split into three. If there's any US Aircraft Carriers in the region, they were probably there when the war started and are stranded there.
There's a few Princesses in the Greenland and Norwegan seas who'd love to break into the Atlantic. Not to mention, a Princess setting up on Iceland would cause a lot of problems for Atlantic convoys.
That being said, that probably doesn't require a carrier. An airbase there could provide cover RN forces in the area.
Good point, and it might be prudent if the JMSDF were contributing to other areas in the Pacific.
There might still be a US force in the area, but further southwest. Taiwan, China, and Korea need ship-girl support, and wouldn't work well with the former IJN
Yeah, this really was rough-draft world-building. I'll wait for a bit more feedback before compiling a better list.
- Location
- Warszawa Polska
Here I will sound unkind and point out that world-building should happen before you start writing.
It is a thankless job, and similar to an iceberg because you will only use a fraction of what you came up with in the story, and only a small part of it will actually be noticed by the readers. Or you will write infodump chapters that are dull, brake the pace and you don't really like.
Your story is, as I see it, an Abyssal does something unexpected and brakes the status quo with her actions.
Not having a set status quo, to begin with, is somewhat of a flaw for the setting.
Why would there be any? Yugoslavian Civil War ended not that long ago and there is little actual animosity between people that were hacking each other to death with axes just two decades ago. There were very little reprisals between various ethnicities that wronged each other in WWII in Europe shortly after the war.
Veterans of Imperial Japanese armed forces served in the Korean War on both sides.
Iraq-Iran war lasted 8 years and just three years later Iraqi military personnel was seeking shelter in Iran.
Ex Wehrmacht, Luftwaffe and Kriegsmarine officers served in both East and West German armed forces.
Hell! There are documented cases of former SS members serving in the Israeli armed forces(sic!)
There is a war on so I see no reason to put any tension between a Chinese Ship-girl and a Japanese Ship-girl.
Or should Hiryo be a hated enemy to Yorktown? Or Kaga hate the Enterprise. The Shokaku sisters should hate the guts of the US Navy and vice-versa.
You already skipped animosities between the former IJN and US Navy girls.
So if they can go to a bar to watch a game, just can the Hui Yang and Hatsuharu share a helping of octopus in Taichung.
Bottom line:
It was 70 years ago. New common Enemy trumps old grievances.
EDIT:
Then again it would be funny to have the USS Phoenix (CL-46) having an irrational dislike of anything remotely British.
or
The USS Milwaukee (CL-5) hating Russians and with a rat phobia.
(Phoenix was sold to the Argentinians and sunk in 1982 by an RN submarine in the Falklands war. Milwaukee was on loan to the Russians and when she returned in 1949 was infested with rats.)
So a dig or a verbal jab here and there but actual problems that assets of strategic importance not being deployed because something happened 70 years ago, no. Plus what bring people closer more than fighting shoulder to shoulder, protecting and helping each other.
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- Location
- Somewhere
I feel like some awkwardness between specific ships isn't out of the ordinary. Even if no more so than two people who detested each other in high school finding themselves at the same workplace after college. (And by specific I mean "she sank me" level)
PyrrhicSteel
Look natural.
- Location
- Idaho
Oh, I definitely agree. I just didn't have any plans for this story outside of the Pacific, which unfortunately means outside of there everything's a lot more fly-by-wire.
Ho boy, it should.
However, the scar of Japanese Imperialism still cuts pretty deep in Taiwan, Korea, and mainland China. Korea and Taiwan might be able to let bygones be bygones (especially considering the IJN ships that survived the war and joined their fledgling navies), but reprisals and apologies is still a really hot issue, at least in Mainland China.
Partially due to the lack of reprisals and disputes over the ownership of islands, the CCP's propaganda machine has been making sure people don't forget about what Japan did in World War 2. The fact that Japanese culture means admitting that war crimes in China even happened is political suicide only makes things worse. If they're desperate and facing a common enemy they might be able to work together, but not without a lot of small issues that could make joint operations painful.
A US navy force in the region would have more experience working with the PLAN and less political baggage, even if the current Trade War got much worse before the Abyssals showed up.
- Location
- Australia
Enterprise x IJN Carrier awkwardness can be fun or amusing (or cute) to read about. I think Japanese shipgirls and Chinese shipgirls would get on reasonably well, it would be those that can't or won't let go of what happened in WW2 being a disruptive influence, trying to score political points or whatever. I honestly don't think the shipgirls would be too concerned tbh, since the Abyssal are far more immediate and real. But if politicians or dumbasses want to whine and complain about IJN ships defending China when their cities are being massacred in the millions by Abyssals I'm sure the survivors would have some words they'd like to share about their dated point of view.
Tbh, I think there should be quite a few less steel hull carriers about as I'd see Abyssals targeting them right out of the gate, along with other prime targets. Smashing steel hull navies (especially at the start) would net them resources and deprive the humans of a means to fight or come up with counters to Spooky Creepy Abyssal Bullshit.
Tbh, I think there should be quite a few less steel hull carriers about as I'd see Abyssals targeting them right out of the gate, along with other prime targets. Smashing steel hull navies (especially at the start) would net them resources and deprive the humans of a means to fight or come up with counters to Spooky Creepy Abyssal Bullshit.
- Location
- Warszawa Polska
Now that I think about it Western as a Genre has a lot of it.
There are a lot of characters that fought in the Civil War, on the losing side and being protagonist and a sheriff of the town.
A Neo-Nazi a Muslim a Black guy and a communist walk it to a bar.
They do their job then give each other rides back home.
I was one of the people in that story. We could never agree on what was in the news or about politics but work is work. I don't see how political views trump professionalism. And none of us was that professional, to begin with. There was a single high school diploma to our names. There was also a body count between us. Don't panic all save one were ex-military.
The only thing ship girls would care about is professionalism.
Random idiot Joe on the street may get so angry he will make a sign. He and his friends may protest around the military base a bit but that is about the worst of it.
I personally don't think there should not be any steel-hulled ships left in the world, period.
Because if a 5-6 foot tall Ship Girl can hit a 5-6 feet tall Abyssal from 10 000 yards or more. How on God's green earth can a 1000 feet long steel hull ship defend itself from a human-sized target? How would a warship that has a 50-50 chance of hitting a boat with its main gun even hope to fight off a target that is shorter than the waves it sails on?
Airplanes are no better.
A human plane from Abyssal perspective is the size of an island.
From the other side, the problem is even more severe.
How do you hit a target the size of a human with a guided bomb? The Bombs CEP is at best ten time the size of the target. The bomb is bigger than the target and the target is very much capable of hitting the said bomb.
If Abyss AA can take out targets the size of pigeons, about as big as a faerie piloted plane, then shooting out from the sky things like Harpoons and Smart Bombs is not even a competition.
So things that could still be afloat are things that avoided contact with the Abyss.
Human run militaries would only be auxiliaries to Ship-Girls. A U-2 or a Global Hawks is immune to WWII weapons. It flies too high. A nuclear Sub can operate in Abyss infested waters with impunity. It dives too deep.
Any combat between a Steel hull ship and an Abyssal would be very much one-sided.
PyrrhicSteel
Look natural.
- Location
- Idaho
That's likely, and the majority of regular sailors, officers, and even politicians probably wouldn't have an issue with each other, but unfortunately big organizations aren't going to work together as well. You've got bad apples, idiots, miscommunications and unfortunate coincidences that'll exacerbate existing issues and cause a lot of small distractions you really don't need in a fight for survival against Eldritch abominations.
We're approaching "agree to disagree" territory, though, and I'm starting to feel like I'm derailing my own thread, so unless someone's got a third opinion maybe we should drop the topic.
They don't have to. Due to KC's ambiguous canon, how combat actually happens differs a lot from fic to fic. In this one, shipgirls and Abyssals are simultaneously their ship-selves and their humanoid selves at once when they're on the water, an impossibility that's played havoc on a lot of targeting systems that've been developed to counter them. This, along with the fact that they've got practically no radar signature and are completely dead on thermals, makes attacking them conventionally difficult, but not impossible.
In situations where a hull form is impossible (water too shallow, walking on land with your rigging out, etc), the shipgirl is still able to use their equipment and weapons, but they have little more mass than a regular human, and are very much at the mercy of Newton's 3rd law while doing so.
That's why the initial attack on Trinitite at Bikini effected her at all, and why she towered over the Pacific Lilly as she approached the tiny trawler.
Thus, steel-hulled ships only have to deal with hostile ships with almost no radar signature, could appear from the coastline at any point, are invisible on thermals, are better armored, occasionally enjoy the ability to mess with the weather, and posses a more ideal armament for the kind of fighting they choose to engage in.
Neruz
Rogue Spiderbanana
- Location
- The Land of Fire and Poison
Minor advantages really, nothing worth worrying about in the grand scheme of things.
So. Assume Nashville and Trinitite meet on dry land. Nashville successfully ambushes the Wo and fires one of her secondaries at her. Trinitite is hit, and the explosion hurls the confused Wo with human weight away, spinning through the air in uncontrolled flight. Meanwhile, the recoil sends Nashville skidding down the road, striking sparks as she tumbles over the asphalt, and finally comes to a stop as she crashes into a stationed car. The Wo escapes in the confusion.
Take two: Nashville has brought Iowa as reinforcements. This time, the highly alert Wo is quicker on the draw. A shot from one of her secondaries sends the near-human weight battleship blasting off into the distance, much to the amazement of Trinitite. Right before the wall the recoil smashed her into comes crumbling down on her.
Take three: when Trinitite is taking out the trash, Iowa comes bursting through the metal sheet of the trash can, pounces, and catches the Wo in a grappling hold. Understandably surprised, the carrier drops the tub of old frying grease she was supposed to dispose off, and both ships are coated in slippery, oily fat. Like toothpaste spurting out of a tube that has been squeezed too hard, the slick Wo pops out out of the battleship's high-pressure embrace. A shot, explosion, and involuntary flight later, Iowa finds herself alone and reeking of garbage and rancid grease.
The less said about the road rash Trinitite suffered the one time she tried to launch a plane, the better.
So, uh, yeah. While the implications of that kind of system are hilarious, I don't think it works very well in context. As long as Trinitite doesn't find a body of water large enough for an Essex, she's about as effective as, um, a slow-firing artillery piece? Yeah, that sounds about right. I suppose she could lie down flat on the ground to brace herself, but that doesn't sound too practical either.
- Location
- Australia
While amusing that sounds pretty dumb... can't say I like that interpretation and hope you reconsider it.
- Location
- Over the hill and far away
But haven't we already seen her launch her scouts when she snuck ashore? Or am I confused?
Plus the historic examples of ships beaching themselves specifically to be more stable, unsinkable gunnery platforms...
Plus the historic examples of ships beaching themselves specifically to be more stable, unsinkable gunnery platforms...
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Stahor
BookWorm
- Location
- Russia, Moscow
Nashville launched one, specifically before coming ashore.
@PyrrhicSteel Is it anywhere close to what you think?
Because while it's still makes Wo major problem, it's not as absurd as "strike anywhere, anytime" possibility that was discussed earlier.
Also, on more uplifting note, if "heavier" means "about truck weight", it means Wo can still shred any destroyer using her 20mm Oerlikons, without suffering from recoil too much.