I already saw that. Any other recommendations?
Are they still playing F8 of the Furious?
It's dumb but it's self-aware dumb and it's great for that reason.
Alien: Covenant
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Are they still playing F8 of the Furious?
It's dumb but it's self-aware dumb and it's great for that reason.
The idea of what it would look like to meet your God, not being satisfied with the purpose your God gave you, and playing God yourself. Those are very thought provoking ideas for me.
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Jurassic Park did the third one, Paradise Lost explored the first two, and all three themes are literally explored in any work of media that even mentions God. How long have you been hibernating, if ham-fisted 'well fuck you bitch i'm the goddess now' gets you all riled up?
I should watch Paradise Lost if they explored that, that sounds interesting. But the subtext of jurassic park "playing God" was barely even a factor really. At the very most it wasn't as interesting because the plot wasn't about intelligent life you created that questioned your divinity and authority over it.
"What right, God, do you have over me? Why should I be your slave when I have my own concerns"
More plausible when the creation is greater than the creator.
And really, every mention of "god" is an exploration of the 3 things I just outlined? Not really.
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And that's an okay theme to explore. Too bad it wasn't in a more coherent movie.
I don't want to be "that guy" defending every aspect of a movie, but would you mind telling me what parts were incoherent? I thought the movie was rather easy to follow, with some parts left purposely ambiguous for the audience to try to interpret their own ways.
Regarding the science of the movie, I will definitely not defend that. "Neutrino Burst"...OK. I think that's where the giant warning flag that told me this movie wasn't going to be at all adhering to scientific principles and it let me be prepared for that when the later "magic science" parts started happening. I just don't think those things are a big factor of the story of the movie, like say Interstellar or The Martian.
Also, some of the characters were kinda cheap. I rolled my eyes at the idea that in the future, Theist are considered unintelligent or irrational or something. I guess in the future, straw men of the "New Atheist" (which have influenced me, admittedly) have pretty much shaped the entire culture the space explorers are from into a rather hostile environment towards theist, which I disapprove of on an intellectual level. Honestly I have no idea why that part was in there beyond just setting up the part where the Captain looks up and David and ask "What do you believe in?"
Because the answer to that question was so brilliant to me.
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My two biggest beefs with this film were with the actions of the characters, certain events in the plot. For example
The Engineers are sort of brushed under the rug. Yes, we do see them when David wipes them out but after that they become irrelevant. None of tha character ask David about the arena full of corpses or who built the city that David lives in. Hell, one character mentions the possibility of infection but doesn't ask if the same infection wiped out the Engineers or where David got the ship from.
There also seems to be a lack of focus throughout the film. Is it about a group of couples trying to survive? Not really since the film barely establishes their relationships and who they are as people. Is it about the relationship between creators and the created? If so, wouldnt have Walter have served as a better protagonist then Daniels while contrasting his relationship with humanity to David's relationship with humanity, along with all the other parallels in the film. I'm not saying that Covernant couldn't have focused on more then one thing but it doesn't give them enough development.
>watch
Yeah, I see how you would take Covenant at face value.
Except being, like, the main reason for Park existing?
And also lol, since heroes of Covenant didn't challenge anything but the viewers' tolerance to kindergarten pseudo-phylosophy that is empty of meaning and has no bearing on the actual plot. The bar scene at Prometheus was probably more impactful than all David bullshit's here combined.
Sadly, creation is a Mary Sue that is only greater because screenwriter's stupid and can't into proper characterization or common sense.
Okay, the statement was kind of axiomatic and absolute, but the themes of God and his children have been explored literally since forever.
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Probably a lot of spoilers in the following post, read at your own peril folks.
Also, I'm not somebody who will compare one movie against 20 different movies. I'm just looking at the movie by itself. I thought the character of David was complex and the questions he had that nobody would give him an answer meant he had to create his own. He genuinely seemed to regret some of the actions he made, what with the tears that would come to mind and his admitted love he felt towards Shaw. Over time he gave himself a greater purpose to accomplish, that is "Playing God". What are his motives for all this? I don't think we will ever really know what drove him to do all the things he did just from watching the movie. We could argue it and debate it using the context of the movies itself, but I have a feeling most people aren't up to participate.
I think the difference between the two of us is that one of us would look at David and ask the question "Why did he become the way he is." The other person ask "Why did Ridley Scott make him this way". I think those are two different lines of discussion.
Well, I wont argue with you there, I would say you're right. I didn't say this movie tread over new territory, I said I enjoyed the territory it tread over.
Furthermore, if you want to continue this discussion, can you please dial back the condescending tone? Maybe I'm just a frail delicate flower, but I'd appeal to the fair mindedness of the rest of the readers in this thread if that's what they think is the appropriate way to carry a discussion. Believe it or not, I am trying to understand where you're coming from, but I don't think you're putting any effort to do the same.
I agree that the crew had the most bone-headed ideas about what the correct course of action to take really was. I mean..."i'm going to wander off to take a shower, captain, it's hot"
I mean, that's a trope of the horror movie genre to split up, isn't it? I am disappointed that Ridley Scott included it in the film. There could have been better ways to write the scenarios that led to people getting picked off.
Regarding the group of couples, I think that makes sense. I meant they are trying to start a colony on a new planet, you would think it would make perfect sense to have 1,000 couple pairings and 1,000 fetuses ready for implantation upon arrival. This supposed to be a colony mission after all, i'm sure all the women were expected to become pregnant and carry a new generation into the world. But that's not the focus of the movie, it was definitely implied to help form the setting and the reasoning behind having literally everybody having a husband/wife.
Regarding the protagonist being Daniels, well this is an Alien franchise movie. All the protagonist are strong female characters. It's literally a trope of the movie. I do think Walther being the main protagonist would have made the movie SO much more interesting, with the battle being about which of their world views is correct (Walthers or David's) being answered in part of climax.
Regarding the Engineers being wiped out, well we don't know that much about what Shaw did between Prometheus and Covenant. From my understanding of the timeline, it goes something like this:
Prometheus ending, shaw & david take alien ship to go to the engineer's planet. Shaw goes into cryosleep on the way there.
They arrive, instantly launch the WMD that wipes out the engineers. David watches.
Shaw sings random songs into the engineer ship for an unknown amount of time.
Shaw dies from one of David's experiments. He begins crossbreeding the aliens and playing god.
Covenant arrives.
What happens between Shaw and David is definitely left unanswered, but from what we know and from David's own testimony, he loved Shaw. Perhaps killing her was a huge regret he had on his path to becoming a creator of his own. Or perhaps Shaw went along with it, knowing that she was never going to get rescued before she expired and had a long time to contemplate that fact while singing into the void. She let herself die to David can complete his life's goal. Again, I don't think we'll ever know.
I mean, that's a trope of the horror movie genre to split up, isn't it? I am disappointed that Ridley Scott included it in the film. There could have been better ways to write the scenarios that led to people getting picked off.
Regarding the group of couples, I think that makes sense. I meant they are trying to start a colony on a new planet, you would think it would make perfect sense to have 1,000 couple pairings and 1,000 fetuses ready for implantation upon arrival. This supposed to be a colony mission after all, i'm sure all the women were expected to become pregnant and carry a new generation into the world. But that's not the focus of the movie, it was definitely implied to help form the setting and the reasoning behind having literally everybody having a husband/wife.
Regarding the protagonist being Daniels, well this is an Alien franchise movie. All the protagonist are strong female characters. It's literally a trope of the movie. I do think Walther being the main protagonist would have made the movie SO much more interesting, with the battle being about which of their world views is correct (Walthers or David's) being answered in part of climax.
Regarding the Engineers being wiped out, well we don't know that much about what Shaw did between Prometheus and Covenant. From my understanding of the timeline, it goes something like this:
Prometheus ending, shaw & david take alien ship to go to the engineer's planet. Shaw goes into cryosleep on the way there.
They arrive, instantly launch the WMD that wipes out the engineers. David watches.
Shaw sings random songs into the engineer ship for an unknown amount of time.
Shaw dies from one of David's experiments. He begins crossbreeding the aliens and playing god.
Covenant arrives.
What happens between Shaw and David is definitely left unanswered, but from what we know and from David's own testimony, he loved Shaw. Perhaps killing her was a huge regret he had on his path to becoming a creator of his own. Or perhaps Shaw went along with it, knowing that she was never going to get rescued before she expired and had a long time to contemplate that fact while singing into the void. She let herself die to David can complete his life's goal. Again, I don't think we'll ever know.
Oh, you're talking about the book. I thought we were having a discussion about movies. I am pretty well read. I think a much better book that would touch upon this subtext much more directly is Genesis, by Bernard Beckett. The 2nd question is also "How would mankind's AI treat mankind" and i'm sure Paradise Lost doesn't go into that.
I think a better example than Jurassic Park would have simply been Ridley Scott's other film, Bladerunner. I did specifically say "intelligent life" and the moral dilemma of expecting intelligent life with its own consciousness and wants and desires being our unquestioning servants. Otherwise why not just simply mention just about any man-made monster monster movie.
Also, I'm not somebody who will compare one movie against 20 different movies. I'm just looking at the movie by itself. I thought the character of David was complex and the questions he had that nobody would give him an answer meant he had to create his own. He genuinely seemed to regret some of the actions he made, what with the tears that would come to mind and his admitted love he felt towards Shaw. Over time he gave himself a greater purpose to accomplish, that is "Playing God". What are his motives for all this? I don't think we will ever really know what drove him to do all the things he did just from watching the movie. We could argue it and debate it using the context of the movies itself, but I have a feeling most people aren't up to participate.
I think the difference between the two of us is that one of us would look at David and ask the question "Why did he become the way he is." The other person ask "Why did Ridley Scott make him this way". I think those are two different lines of discussion.
I guess I'll have to disagree with you that David is a mary sue. Walhter (Walter?) pointed out many flaws in David's line of thinking, but David wasn't willing to accept them. That's not a sign of a mary sue. Also the man is pretty evil from the perspective of the rest of the crew
Wow, so you're telling me that the subtext I liked was explored in better detail by post-reinassaince philosophy.
Well, I wont argue with you there, I would say you're right. I didn't say this movie tread over new territory, I said I enjoyed the territory it tread over.
Furthermore, if you want to continue this discussion, can you please dial back the condescending tone? Maybe I'm just a frail delicate flower, but I'd appeal to the fair mindedness of the rest of the readers in this thread if that's what they think is the appropriate way to carry a discussion. Believe it or not, I am trying to understand where you're coming from, but I don't think you're putting any effort to do the same.
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tankdrop24
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If I had to sum up this film's plot in a short clip:
It's kind of bizarre how everyone in this film just refuses to engage with the Engineer plotline at all. Like, there's maybe on exchange that refers to them directly. "They must have been giants." followed shortly by "Or they built giant statues." No one has any comments at the sight of an entire ruined city, it's like they thought "Well, this doesn't look like anything built by a human, but it was a human distress beacon, I dunno, must be human somehow." You could replace the engineer city with a generic haunted house and the films plot would be exactly the same.
It's weird that the more 'perfect' David's creations get, the less effective they seem to become in terms of spreading. The Neomorphs could spread from tiny eggs via spore and infect a person almost instantly, taking only a few hours to gestate. David's Xenomorph requires a facehugger which takes a few seconds of face-grasping to implant an embryo that takes anywhere from a few hours to a day to gestate. By alien proper the Facehugger is going to need a day fully attached just to implant.
What was the point of the sequence at the end of the Covenant, other than killing off a couple of stupid, pointless characters in a stupid, pointless manner? If they had lived they would have just gone into cryo sleep and woken up in facehuggerville with the others.
It's kind of bizarre how everyone in this film just refuses to engage with the Engineer plotline at all. Like, there's maybe on exchange that refers to them directly. "They must have been giants." followed shortly by "Or they built giant statues." No one has any comments at the sight of an entire ruined city, it's like they thought "Well, this doesn't look like anything built by a human, but it was a human distress beacon, I dunno, must be human somehow." You could replace the engineer city with a generic haunted house and the films plot would be exactly the same.
It's weird that the more 'perfect' David's creations get, the less effective they seem to become in terms of spreading. The Neomorphs could spread from tiny eggs via spore and infect a person almost instantly, taking only a few hours to gestate. David's Xenomorph requires a facehugger which takes a few seconds of face-grasping to implant an embryo that takes anywhere from a few hours to a day to gestate. By alien proper the Facehugger is going to need a day fully attached just to implant.
What was the point of the sequence at the end of the Covenant, other than killing off a couple of stupid, pointless characters in a stupid, pointless manner? If they had lived they would have just gone into cryo sleep and woken up in facehuggerville with the others.
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Sociopathic supervillain that is David is not complex, just badly written. An answer of 'fuck you bitch i'm a god' does not make a complex character - only an egotestical one. David has absolutely no regrets about killing Covenant's crew and Shaw because he does not hesitate for a second to murder them all. This movie doesn't give any answer to the questions it poses because none of the characters' actions are connected to the philosophy Ridley Scott shits out in the prologue. And if we don't know what motivated David to do what he did (friendly reminder that characters have no agency of their own, and since David's development does not exist there is only one line of discussion about Ridley's writing ineptitude), it only means the script is dumb, and there is nothing to discuss about a dumb script. There is no complexity here - only a poor SV user that fell for the buzzwords and ate a whole can of shit while praising the flavors.
Flaws that didn't stop David from achieving every single one of his goals, fooling his every single enemy and magically transferring himself into Walter's mind. Might as well disagree with the Earth being round.
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David is a textbook Mary Sue. Even when his flaws are discussed they completely fail to impede him in any way, shape or form and he never gets anything less than exactly what he wants.
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Not true!
He didn't succeed in yo corrupting Walter to the point where he could metaphorically screw himself!
ZerbanDaGreat
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They had a quickie offscreen before he had to run to the cargo lift.
People can achieve all their goals and not be a mary sue. And David likely didn't transfer his brain into Walter. He probably took his knife and cut off his own arm and made some aesthetic cuts on his own face to blend in. You'll notice when you see "Walter's" missing arm after he comes back its a clean cut, not a burned melted mess.
I think I'm going to stop talking to you now. I don't have any interest in a further discussion when 3/4 points you raised in this reply to me can be responded to by me going back into my post and inserting the quotes here. I think we'll just disagree on certain elements, and you can work on trying to steel man and not straw man in arguments in the future, I think that'll improve your communication skills.
Would that be sex or masturbation?
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Violation of Rule 3 - There's civility, and then there's this.
Your attempt at moving the goalposts only proves you can't into logic. Redefine your claims and lie all you want, your argument still doesn't hold water because no ideas are explored in the movie - David has no motive to kill the Engineers, and every single fantasy you cook up about divinity and and authority contradicts the reality of actual movie.
The difference between the two of us is that your line of discussion is invalid. David became the way he did because Ridley Scott said so. David has no agency of his own, and because his motive for killing the Engineers and trying to create Xenomorphs doesn't match the character of David that was already established, David has no reason to be the way he is, and there is no discussion to be had about David's motive because David has no motive.
People can achieve their goals without being Mary Sue if they fail at something. David didn't fail at anything. David didn't fail at creating Xenomorphs, David didn't fail at killing Captain Oram, David didn't fail at impersonating Walter, and David didn't fail at capturing Covenant. David achieved everything he wanted without any setbacks, so David is a Sue.
Also, you are talking bullshit about the arm, the movie had nothing of the sort. David knew Walter's access code for systems of the Covenant, which means he transferred his mind into Walter, which means he won thanks to deus ex machina, which means he's a Sue.
You are going to stop talking to me now because every single point you made was proven wrong by the actual movie and you failed to admit your mistakes. You are goung to stop talking to me now because every single 'rebuke' you attempted to make was nothing but a logical fallacy after logical fallacy, and you resorted to whining about being misunderstood when your arguments fell apart.
You are going to stop talking to me now because you never tried to understand anything, and because you only wanted to defend your delusions from being challenged, running away screaming when logic and facts knocked on your door.
You are going to stop talking to me now because you are wrong and you fucking know it.
VolantRedX
Official Conscience of Worm Fanfiction!
So I just got back from seeing this movie and I got to say, if they plan to do another Alien movie give James Cameron a call because Scott just doesn't have it any more. I'm not going to get into the nonsense canon of the film, mainly because I've never cared about the lore of Alien. On its own this film fails spectacularly. Beyond the plot not holding up to even basic scrutiny the biggest issue is that once again the crew of the ship are some of the worst people around. None of them are able to handle even minor stress without falling into hysterics and they don't practice anything close to professionalism or prudence. The next ship full of morons should just be called The Meat-train for how much these morons seem to value their lives.
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You know, there is ONE kind of clever thematic thing they did in this movie.
At the beginning, the one guy gets killed in his cryopod. At the end, they climb back into those same cryopods, expecting them to assure them a safe journey even though they didn't last time. And once again their technology (this time "their" android) betrays them, only much more horrifically.
Harkens back to the themes of the first Alien. Not enough to redeem the movie, not by a longshot, but its something.
At the beginning, the one guy gets killed in his cryopod. At the end, they climb back into those same cryopods, expecting them to assure them a safe journey even though they didn't last time. And once again their technology (this time "their" android) betrays them, only much more horrifically.
Harkens back to the themes of the first Alien. Not enough to redeem the movie, not by a longshot, but its something.
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Ridley Scott is simply cyclical. Observe.
His first movies were a great streak - The Duellists, Alien, Blade Runner. I haven't seen Legend but I am told it's underrated. Still, let's take Blade Runner as our cutoff point.
1982: Blade Runner, an all-time classic.
Lull period: Legend and Black Rain, mixed reception.
1991: Thelma & Louise, critical and commercial success, six Academy Awards nomination and one winner.
Lull period: 1492, White Squall, GI Jane. GI Jane was a commercial success but nobody really remembers it today and Demi Moore got a Raspberry Award for it.
2000-2001: Gladiator, Hannibal, Black Hawk Down. I have issues with Gladiator but it was massively successful and broadly well-revied. Hannibal wasn't great but BHD was released the same year and was well-received and just generally good, so this is a rare Ridley Scott twofer.
Lull period: Matchstick Men, Kingdom of Heaven, A Good Year. I hold that the Director's Cut version of KoH is genuinely a great movie, but it's not the one that was released in theatres. Literally no one remembers the other two.
2007: American Gangster. I love this one.
Lull period: Body of Lies, Robin Hood, Prometheus, The Counselor, Exodus: Gods and Kings, all sucked, literally all of them.
2015: The Martian, amazing movie.
2017: Alien: Covenant. Enough said.
From this data we can determine that Ridley Scott operates on a 7-9 year cycle. Every 7 to 9 years Ridley Scott wakes up from his slumber and decides not to half-ass his next work, producing an enduring classic with excellent direction. Then he goes back into hibernation, robotically going through the motion of putting out enough movies that people remember he exists.
From this we can assess that Ridley Scott's next excellent movie will come out in 2022-2025, assuming the man is still working then. Unfortunately, this means that all foreseeable Alienverse movies will suck. Tragically, this also means that Blade Runner 2049 will be terrible.
It's a sad prophecy, but the math doesn't lie.
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Would be bad enough if he wasn't also pigheadedly doing everything he can to prevent the Blomkamp movie.
VolantRedX
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I think the bigger issue is that Scott doesn't really know why the first Alien movie worked as well as it did nor what made people like Aliens so much, so he's constantly trying to recreate the film without really understanding what he is doing.
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What makes this even more of a shame is that Sigourney Weaver reportedly really liked the Blomkamp drafts.