Alchemical Solutions [Worm/Exalted] Thread 23: We Wonder Where Who Wanders When Watchers Wane

Pre-Vote Running Tally: Who Are Your Top 3 Choices For Orichalcum?


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It should yes, but it clearly doesn't. At least past a certain distance/size. Otherwise, the entities would be teleporting and not using the comparatively slow FTL travel methods.
The shards themselves aren't travelling around with their hosts, they're just scrying across dimensions/distances. The shards are all stuck on their respective empty Earths, consuming that iteration of the planet's resources to augment their own energy reserves. This is a large reason why the Entities actively prevent the host species from becoming space-faring, as the shards would have a harder time projecting their power from Earth when their hosts are trying to, say, use their power to turn chunks of the moon into actual cheese. Phrasing it yet another way:

- Example A) Host, in Kansas City, uses Power to turn a person standing next to them into a duck. This costs very little energy for the Shard.
- Example B) Host, on the moon, uses Power to turn a fellow astronaut into a duck. This costs a ton of energy (to the point where it might not work), because the Shard has to spend energy to maintain their connection to host (so as to receive signals from their brain and scan the local area), and then spend all that energy projecting its power to the moon.
- Example C) Host, on the moon, uses Power to turn a dude in Kansas City into a duck. This is far more expensive than Example A but far less expensive than Example B, for the reasons given above.
Put that way, the Endbringer core is just the targeting reference beacon/local computation node isn't it?
Parahumans in general are targeting/reference beacons for their Shards, yes. That's the entire point of the information gathering component of the Cycle: find hosts that get their shards to come up with new and interesting applications of their abilities.
 
Wildbow has been extremely cagey on whether or not Gray Boy's time bubbles can be broken by Gray Boy. He's hinted anything from no, to "Gray boy won't do it".

Even if the time bubbles can be broken, are there still sentient occupants in them? Given the whole 'eternal torture' thing? We're not Solars, we can't punch people's trauma out of them, and we only have so much Spike time to spare...
 
Even if the time bubbles can be broken, are there still sentient occupants in them? Given the whole 'eternal torture' thing? We're not Solars, we can't punch people's trauma out of them, and we only have so much Spike time to spare...
Maybe, but breaking the infinite torture time bubbles and having them interred in stasis (until time can be spared anyway) would still be an improvement over their current statuses.

Speaking of, the description for the Shard of Transcendental Imprisonment hasn't been placed in the New Charms tab of the OP @Gromweld .
 
and thus far we haven't seen converted shards playing all that nice with Entity shards.
The only converted shard-shard interactions I can think of were Bladedancer-Prayer and EoA-Philadelphia.
Not great, but not fundamentally incompatible.
Besides, even without whatever they looted off Creation, Autochtonia canonically is pretty good at Craft Genesis.

Odd how no one's considered why we're allowed to tinker with Virtues during that vote...
I thought that was obvious.
Exaltation here involves staring into the face of one of the architects of Creation; that sorta thing is a life changing experience, even without mainlining his power the way Taylor mainlined Vision.
Because it's not hard to figure out? I mean, the answer is POD PEEEEEEOPLE!
Obviously
Pfft.
No more pod people than Sophia's Valor going up and Temperance going down after she triggered.

Speaking of Ms Hess, someone should write an omake about her being readmitted at Ward bootcamp in San Diego for the second time.
Only permanently, until she turns 18. Assuming her family survived, they aren't likely to object to PRT Ward Relocation to the West Coast, and frankly I expect that between Taylor's intervention and her participation at Behemoth, she didn't go to juvie.

Might have had to give up her cape ID though, partly as punishment, and partly to hide her civilian ID better.
 
They can get as close as duplicating memories and personality traits. Not the same person though.
But, if a Solar did that in Earth Bet to a Nowhereverse person, it would be the same person because no soul.
I'm not sure how you can quote the entire section from DotFA and miss the section I'm referencing.
Making a replicant that actually copies the personality and
memories of the original is significantly harder (••). Such
an organism requires additional exotic ingredients that might
carry those experiences, such as the original's ghost, intact
brain or reincarnated soul.
So, you have someone with the exact same body, the exact same memories, the exact same personality, and possibly the exact same soul. Why do you not consider this the same person?
 
I'm not sure how you can quote the entire section from DotFA and miss the section I'm referencing.
I didn't miss it. The earlier portion makes it clear that this part:
So, you have someone with the exact same body, the exact same memories, the exact same personality, and possibly the exact same soul. Why do you not consider this the same person?
Isn't true.
Ergo, not the same person. Not in Creation.

It's the same reason why a Splintered Gale that Exalts as a Celestial and thereby gains a soul is not the same person as the Infernal that spawned it, despite sharing the same non-magical traits(memories, Attributes, Abilities, personality).
 
Maybe, but breaking the infinite torture time bubbles and having them interred in stasis (until time can be spared anyway) would still be an improvement over their current statuses.

Speaking of, the description for the Shard of Transcendental Imprisonment hasn't been placed in the New Charms tab of the OP @Gromweld .
You just gave me an interesting idea. Our assembly is immune to Grey Boy bubbles right? Couldn't Saki just walk in and grab them? Or would two copies of the person be created, one stuck in the bubble and one that's free? Would be an interesting experiment.
 
I didn't miss it. The earlier portion makes it clear that this part:

Isn't true.
Ergo, not the same person. Not in Creation.

It's the same reason why a Splintered Gale that Exalts as a Celestial and thereby gains a soul is not the same person as the Infernal that spawned it, despite sharing the same non-magical traits(memories, Attributes, Abilities, personality).
Isn't believed to be true, in creation, but this sort of thing isn't actually contingent on what universe you're in; it's a property of computation, which is the same everywhere.

What I'm getting at is, I think they might just be mistaken. If the personality, memories, habits and everything else you could name is the same, then they're the same person. If they don't have the same soul, then the implication is simply that there's two of that person now, given that the soul is a record of all those things.
 
Well, that's because the Endbringers' shards are located on alternate Earths just as normal parahuman shards are -
I feel I might not have clear enough about what quote I meant. This is the one:
Worm Quotes and WoG Repository | Page 6

Behemoth can affect the Earth, from the sun, with the sun.
That level of energy control is absurd and utterly beyond the limits of what we see him do. The assumption he is running on any kind of energy limitation that maps out to three hundred uses is in no way congruent with this scenario (excepting the fact that he is still essentially a plot device so whatever).

Anyway, it's nice to know that in this story Endbringers are essentially shard based projections. Now we just need to cannibalize them for parts!
My inner mad German scientist says setting up a demense on their bodies would be fascinating.
And with enough worker spiders (sourced from Saki?) we might turn them to our cause!
 
The protection is self only. You'd possibly gib the victims
Hmm, do we have anything as of the moment that can nullify shaping effects in a small area? Besides Thermionic Orthodoxy Array. Maybe Taylor could try hiding them beneath Optical Shroud? That should hide them from Grey Boy's shard allowing them to escape. The only issue is if it creates a copy because the original went "missing"
 
Hmm, do we have anything as of the moment that can nullify shaping effects in a small area? Besides Thermionic Orthodoxy Array. Maybe Taylor could try hiding them beneath Optical Shroud? That should hide them from Grey Boy's shard allowing them to escape. The only issue is if it creates a copy because the original went "missing"

I don't believe OS can hide an area. Even HAC merely hides other touched people, so its not possible to make the entire time bubble invisible.

The anti-entity effects of the Mantle might be able to break the bubbles. Its stated that it can destroy shard caused physical manifestations, which the bubble of distorted time may well qualifty as. Its also possible that trying to kill the victim (not optimal, but better than nothing) via "exotic" essence stuff like the Causality Rejection Cascade would cause the shard to have a BSOD.

However the Mantle requires Iris, who is rather busy.

EDIT: For clarity, Gromweld once said this:
It's one thing to shrug off a time-stop effect that is only targeting your body. It's another thing to try to walk through a bunch of air that has been time-stopped - the air is effectively a wall, so while YOU would be fine, you'd be stuck in your little pocket of non-frozen space. Similarly, walking into a time-bubble would be like walking into a brick wall.

Its not possible to touch the victim with HAC, and we cannot make the location invisible to the shard. We need to attack the bubble of distorted space itself.
 
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Its not possible to touch the victim with HAC, and we cannot make the location invisible to the shard. We need to attack the bubble of distorted space itself.
Gauntlets of Distant Touch. 3-dot artifact. Essence*3 yards range. Line of sight.
Saki could just teleport them out of there.
We just need to remember to have the Orichalcum Caste show up with a pair for her.
 
Gauntlets of Distant Touch. 3-dot artifact. Essence*3 yards range. Line of sight.
Saki could just teleport them out of there.
We just need to remember to have the Orichalcum Caste show up with a pair for her.
Already brought up. There's a good chance that trying to teleport them out will instagib them, making their loop significantly worse. At least optical shroud is guaranteed to get them out.

Edit: Wait, wouldn't it be possible to switch it off, walk in, then switch it on again after you touch the other person? Have Saki try it as she is guaranteed a way out if her ISF doesn't work for some reason
 
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Already brought up. There's a good chance that trying to teleport them out will instagib them, making their loop significantly worse. At least optical shroud is guaranteed to get them out.
Where?
Not seeing why, either, anymore than Saki'd have trouble teleporting someone lying under a car.
Or in water.

The fact that we can see people in Gray Boy bubbles means light passes through.
The fact that Gray Boy himself can enter them and injure the victims suggest we're simply looking at an environmental effect; exotic by Earth Bet standards, but not impassable.

Gauntlets work by affecting targets within line of sight with basically telekinesis.
Saki's charm is a Touch effect, which can be mediated by Gauntlets.
Unless the GM specifically rules wonky Earth Bet-Essence interaction, it should be a snap to grab them.

EDIT
The actual problem would be if it was being maintained by the GB shard, which keeps looking for them. Which would mean as soon as she brings them out of her shard space, it would reimpose the effect again.
 
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The actual problem would be if it was being maintained by the GB shard, which keeps looking for them. Which would mean as soon as she brings them out of her shard space, it would reimpose the effect again.
Or similarly, if it's essentially just recreating a copy (which, considering it would in theory allow a 'reset' from exploded gibbets? Basically guaranteed) and just keeps recreating the copy, even if the original isn't there, because it wasn't 'officially' removed.
 
Odd how no one's considered why we're allowed to tinker with Virtues during that vote...

Given how Alchemicals are formed under normal circumstances, I've been running with the presumption that continuity of consciousness for our candidates is factually false. There is distinctly a time in the process where they're straight-up dead by both Creation and Earth standards, and I am not surprised that Autochthon (whose actions we control during chargen) is perfectly willing to make adjustments to the soul before/during Exaltation far beyond a trite "inspired by meeting one's Maker". I'm a sufficiently idiosyncratic functionalist for that to not disprove the shared identity (even if it could break continuity) though, and that's a perspective solidified by an early vote in Taylor's case. But dramatic changes could jeopardize that, so some caution is warranted.
 
Given how Alchemicals are formed under normal circumstances, I've been running with the presumption that continuity of consciousness for our candidates is factually false. There is distinctly a time in the process where they're straight-up dead by both Creation and Earth standards, and I am not surprised that Autochthon (whose actions we control during chargen) is perfectly willing to make adjustments to the soul before/during Exaltation far beyond a trite "inspired by meeting one's Maker". I'm a sufficiently idiosyncratic functionalist for that to not disprove the shared identity (even if it could break continuity) though, and that's a perspective solidified by an early vote in Taylor's case. But dramatic changes could jeopardize that, so some caution is warranted.
Given how Exaltation is explicitly engineered to void external modifications to the soul/personality, I'm going to have to call a foul on that.
The inspiration can be external, but the change itself has to be internal self-directed.
You can't change personality fundamentals like that on an Exalt.

That's why the Abyssals and the Infernals both come out with personalities intact despite being Exalted by Primordial-tier entities with every motive to reshape their personality to some hypothetical ideal.
 
Given how Alchemicals are formed under normal circumstances, I've been running with the presumption that continuity of consciousness for our candidates is factually false. There is distinctly a time in the process where they're straight-up dead by both Creation and Earth standards, and I am not surprised that Autochthon (whose actions we control during chargen) is perfectly willing to make adjustments to the soul before/during Exaltation far beyond a trite "inspired by meeting one's Maker". I'm a sufficiently idiosyncratic functionalist for that to not disprove the shared identity (even if it could break continuity) though, and that's a perspective solidified by an early vote in Taylor's case. But dramatic changes could jeopardize that, so some caution is warranted.
I've always read it more that alchemicals have continuity with all of their lives to a greater or lesser extent, but Taylor et al. have only lived one life and default to being themselves. Alchemicals are new people, but in this case the person they are is undiluted by any other past lives.
 
Given how Exaltation is explicitly engineered to void external modifications to the soul/personality, I'm going to have to call a foul on that.
The inspiration can be external, but the change itself has to be internal self-directed.
You can't change personality fundamentals like that on an Exalt.

That's why the Abyssals and the Infernals both come out with personalities intact despite being Exalted by Primordial-tier entities with every motive to reshape their personality to some hypothetical ideal.
  1. Relying on the inviolability of Exaltation to hold against Autochthon is one of the worst pieces of fence-post security* I've seen in a while.
  2. We know the alteration happens. You can't argue against the fact that what leaves chargen is mentally different from what goes in.
I've always read it more that alchemicals have continuity with all of their lives to a greater or lesser extent, but Taylor et al. have only lived one life and default to being themselves. Alchemicals are new people, but in this case the person they are is undiluted by any other past lives.
I fully agree, but for both metaphysical and temporal reasons you gotta acknowledge there is a *break in continuity*, even if not an absence of continuation. Lots of philosophies of mind care about that sort of thing. (And it opens loopholes.)

*HPMoR reference, but I like the metaphor enough that it's infiltrated my day job. If anyone knows a better term for the concept, let me know.
 
  1. Relying on the inviolability of Exaltation to hold against Autochthon is one of the worst pieces of fence-post security* I've seen in a while.
  2. We know the alteration happens. You can't argue against the fact that what leaves chargen is mentally different from what goes in.
1)No.
Part of the entire definition of an Exalt is by default that chicanery like that won't work. Else you wouldn't get an Exalt. That's why Taylor spends so much time making sure that a person has the right attitude and the right loyalties; Autobot can't change that in production. Part of the theme of Exaltation is that Autobot wrought better than he knew in creating the design, and that even the architects of Creation can only meddle so much..

2)We know the change happens.
There is no indication that it's Autobot-directed, instead of self-directed. And it's hardly something unique to Alchemicals; other Celestials have emerged from Exaltation with fundamental attributes altered by the experience. It's no different from how any other life-altering experience can change a person's core values.

Autobot is capable of altering their Attributes. Not their base personality or core values.
That's why we are asked to be careful about precisely who we send into the Cradle.

EDIT
There is a category for empowered Exalt hybrids running on Primordial-power whom Primordials or their 3CDs can alter at will.
They're called akuma.
And even they had to give their consent at the very beginning when they accepted the poisoned chalice of power.
 
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Chapter 10.1 (Part 10)
Chapter 10.1
(Part 10)​


***


While she wasn't the first cape with super-strength, super-toughness, and flight, there is a reason that relatively-common powerset is known as the "Alexandria Package": for nearly thirty years, Alexandria has defined the "flying brick" stereotype due to her dominating physical presence in every fight barring Endbringer battles (and even then, she regularly tosses the monsters around).

But all those years ago, the heroine chose her name in the hopes of being recognized for the more subtle aspect of her power: an eidetic memory with instantaneous recall of even the most trivial of details. While memory doesn't necessarily mean comprehension, the merchandise of her that you collected as a young girl touted such feats as learning languages as quickly as she could read a translation book, memorizing expansive maps with a single glance, or even adapting her memory of all her past conversations to perfect the art of cold reading.

When people consider the Triumvirate, while Eidolon is recognized as the most powerful and Legend the most charismatic, Alexandria is undoubtedly the brains of their group.

The woman before you no longer access to these feats - Saki's prison having blocked her shard's connection and rendered her completely human.

You, however, are not so limited.

Repeatedly tapping your Aura-Dampening Component charm to prevent your anima from bursting to life, the world slows to a crawl as you pump more and more essence through the bio-mechanical wonders installed throughout your body - each installed charm shaping the essence in specific patterns that enhance your mind, body, and soul.

While your Dynamic Reaction Enhancement System is your typical go-to for whenever you need to give yourself time to think, you've discovered (and confirmed with Iris) that's barely the tip of the iceberg; nearly any action, including activating your other charms, can be sped up if used in conjunction with the boost. Augmenting everything you do in such a way will completely drain you of essence in a matter of moments, however, so you only save repeated applications of the charm for situations such as this.

Your Incomparable Efficiency Upgrade is already on, of course, as granting you additional trains of thought allowed you to balance the onslaught of information streaming in through your Optical Enhancement's Diagnostic Overlay during the operation. The former charm also received a dramatic improvement from your recent reconstruction, as your expanded Essence reserves have enabled the charm to grant you eight simultaneous consciousnesses instead of the original six - an improvement that similarly carries over when you provide it to parahumans, much to Armsmaster's and Accord's (restrained, in their own ways) delight.

But it is one of your new charms that you are most focused on activating right now. Reactivating, actually, as you just finished using it to help augment and streamline your Assembly's combined efforts during the operation: Synergy-Promoting Upgrade. A curious bundle of orichalcum wires around a white jade ball-bearing set just under your right clavicle, activating it emits continuous, invisible pulses of essence that wash over everyone you consciously consider to be "helping" you with some task - the pulses subtly nudging them to align their thoughts and actions so that your entire group performs less like a series of individuals working towards a goal… and more like a seamless array of cogs in some perfectly-tuned machine.

It's not mind control or telepathy, as both you and the PRT initially worried over during the re-testing you went through last week. Thankfully, none of you actually know what the others are doing or thinking at any given moment, and any one member of the group could easily break out of the charm-guided harmony without any observed difficulty or side-effects; despite some initial skepticism, the reviewing board ultimately called it a "harmless" Master/Shaker effect and gave you permission to use it freely in your "Tinkering" efforts.

As you are about to once again demonstrate, its absurd utility stretches far beyond the laboratory…

… such as allowing your team to absolutely dominate one of the world's greatest orators.

"No."

Still, the odd quirk of using Synergy-Promoting Upgrade is that it feels like you're all acting on a script that none of you quite remember; in this case, Prayer's stern, crystalline tone voices your thought just as you realized it needed to be said. Similarly, Saki is the one to voice the next line in your head - not because you couldn't, but because the message has more meaning when conveyed through her lips.

"We fixed you because it's the right thing to do, and you deserve it," the burnished-silver girl frowns, seemingly disappointed. "You don't deserve to be one of us, though. You're a liar."

The charm isn't flawless, however, and if some of you are working at cross-purposes then it tends to fail… dramatically.

In this case, you had expected Saki to keep Alexandria out for a bit longer so that you could discuss whatever she'd gleaned from her mental conversations with the heroine - specifically, if what she found in there made a compelling argument for her becoming your Assembly's Orichalcum caste. Alexandria's mention that the "conversations" had been experienced through the reliving the heroine's dating life was... exasperating, yet not unexpected; you had keyed onto the Twins' potential for the Starmetal caste because of their uncanny ways of figuring people out by looking at a person's love life, romantic desires... and their perversions.

Alexandria seemed only confused instead of insulted or angry, so she likely understood the reasoning as much as you do.

Still, Saki has plenty of ways to communicate subtly and silently if she'd found anything exceptionally positive or negative. So… that likely means she's playing up the darker side of Alexandria's history, but ultimately will defer to however you want to steer the conversation. And you think you get where she's going with this...

The hispanic heroine, for her part, reveals a slight widening of the eyes that morphs into a furrowed brow before she completely schools her expression into what you expect is her usual mask of cold confidence.

"You know what we're up against," she replies icly, giving Saki her full attention. "I made it a point for us as we set out to routinely run the numbers for going public with what we had, what we knew, just on the off-chance that it would improve the numbers for the final fight."

She shakes her head, her jaw tensing and composure cracking as you suspect she tries to pull up memories and - again, for the first time in decades - fails to recall them as perfectly as she normally should. Nevertheless, she regains her confidence quickly enough that the break in character could be passed as intentional if you specifically weren't looking for it.

She looks up from her recollection to meet your eyes again.

"We had plenty of candidates that had the discipline and fortitude to make the decisions we needed, but no one had the… perspective, or the resources I could bring to bear at a moment's notice. If you think things are chaotic now, you should have seen what it was like back then - when every decision was establishing precedent and it was just normal police against people that could punch down buildings and walk through bullets."

Lifting your hands from your sides, you spread your arms slightly in front of you in a conciliatory gesture while otherwise remaining motionless - your various active charms lending the movements a smooth, mechanical appearance.

"You misunderstand, Rebecca Costa-Brown. We don't like what you did, yes, but none of us have looked at the threat we face and devised a better solution. We are not disappointed in you because you lied. We are disappointed because, somewhere along the way, you became a liar."

"To the world, to yourself" Prayer intones, seamlessly continuing your thought. "The Truth is your enemy, in all things."

"You lie about everything, control everything… even the things you don't really need to," Saki finishes, with a sad smile and a more genuinely-remorseful tone than you or Prayer mustered. "I think you did forget something: how to stop."

It wouldn't surprise you if she's received comments like this from Legend in the past, but if so it also wouldn't surprise you if she's learned to tune him out with regards to her life choices. After all, Doctor Mother confirmed that he is only aware of Cauldron's involvement with the PRT and their selling of vials, so Alexandria would only consider him another uninformed - albeit well-intentioned - opinion and keep on doing what she normally does…

… or maybe even lie, hiding just enough of her actions so that he thinks she took his advice.

Regardless of who or when she may have heard similar comments, you know for a fact that none have had such raw, metaphysical power behind them. The same argument, printed upon paper, would have little-to-none of the emotional weight that you know she's being hammered with right now… and you're pretty sure Saki isn't even breaking out the actual mind-control charms.

It's a testament to how she's lived her life up until now that Alexandria barely flinches, beyond a darkening behind her eyes that you suspect will linger for days to come. Which is what you want, because…

"You can be better."

Her gaze sharpens again at your statement, but you press on when she's about to question it - you need to keep her off-balance if this gambit has any chance of actually getting through to her.

"Just reviewing your public history is enough to see that you weren't always like this, Rebecca. You donned a dark costume, to demand that you be taken seriously next to Eidolon, Legend, and Hero, but it also fit your wit and humor."

Saki shakes her head, empathy pouring through her expression to the point that it brings old memories of your own crashing back. "You've been hurt so much, and you still kept going, kept saving lives… but you can't stop being happy just so you won't be sad anymore."

"Orichalcum do not settle," Prayer finishes, arms behind her back as she nods once at Alexandria's stilled form. "Neither shall we."

Bringing your left hand down, you raise your right gauntlet fully to point at the circular portal frame several yards beyond Alexandria - which immediately springs to life, the supernatural precision of your teamwork allowing Saki to understand exactly what needs to be done.

Alexandria, for her part, straightens up immediately at the sound of the portal's whirring, casting a quick glance at it to confirm that it's showing the Cauldron base she is expecting.

"Show us you want to be better," you calmly finish, gesturing to the blank corridor beyond.

"Then we'll see."


***
 
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