Against the Tide - Germany 1932.

[Valerian]

Well, that's a couple of battalions that we can now outfit to proper infantry standards (minus attached machine gun units).

Not bad for a militia that has only been organized and running for a few months.

Currently, our 50,000 strong militia is just that and even less well armed. But if we manage to avoid conflict with proper Weimar military units (like the 7th division), than I'd say we have excellent odds against anything the SS or SA can throw against us in the short term.

 

[Lovemuffin]

Berlin, Prussia, Germany

Alfred Hugenburg was seething with rage and anger as he read the memo from the TRUE Bavarian Branch of the D.N.V.P. Those traitorous bastards had dared to expel his subordinates! He was the führerprinzip of the D.N.V.P and he would decide who would run the state branches of the party! He blamed that traitorous wrench Von Strauss first he abandons the party then when the pathetic K.V.P collapses the Bavarian rejoins and starts undermining the central authority that as führerprinzip he had spent so long developing.

That democracy loving Bavarian had allied with the Jew loving communists in the S.P.D and turned the base against him and towards the communist prince who Hugenburg was quite sure was a puppet of Joseph Stalin the Jew loving communist that ran Russia. Now he would have to invest valuable resources in Bavaria to prop up the TRUE D.N.V.P and prevent the traitor party from taking the infrastructure and voters of the loyal branch.

Hugenburg stood silently vowing that he would destroy the DnPB and Von Strauss if it was the last thing he did in his political life.
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Just a small blurb I came up with while waiting to get my hair cut

 

[Taut_Templar]

"My fellows, if you wish to save Germany, if you wish to save the republic, to restore the Kaiser, to bring morality, justice, and sound economics to Germany, then we have only one option. We must unite, because if we do not stand together, Adolf Hitler will ensure that we all hang separately."

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Quoting the American Revolution? Huh.

I'm not quite sure what was going on with our coalition, but looking at the rolls and the text, it appeals that the SPD (those are the communists, right?) are banking into a more moderate liberal stance in a ploy to fracture their rivals and make themselves electable. Certainly having the prince semi-officially on board with them speaks volumes.

 

[Mortenkam]

I'm not quite sure what was going on with our coalition, but looking at the rolls and the text, it appeals that the SPD (those are the communists, right?) are banking into a more moderate liberal stance in a ploy to fracture their rivals and make themselves electable. Certainly having the prince semi-officially on board with them speaks volumes.

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No, they are social democrats. You can try to read these quotes from earlier in the quest, if you want a better idea of the party.

The SPD is the second (third) party in Bavaria in 1932, and they are the moderate social democrats. They're socially moderate to liberal, with a socialist tendency being prominent on the party's left wing. They are actually the party that came up with the idea to name Rupprecht as State Commissioner, as he had (some) SPD leanings, and on decent terms with some Union bosses.

Following the SPD is the much more radical, bomb-throwing KPD. They're the fourth largest party in the Landtag, and the second most violent party after the NSDAP. These are the guys behind the Bavarian socialist republic in 1919. They're exceptionally violent and actively attempt to sabotage the 'social fascists' of the SPD.

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SPD: Always the largest of the Weimar parties. While Social Democratic, it is important to note that can range anything from classically liberal, to very pink indeed. By 1932, most of the far left in the party has shifted to the Communists (who hate the SPD something fierce) by now. They're still the largest party in German politics outside the Nazis, mostly because the SPD appeals to a wide swathe of the German population and can twist and contort the more socialist side to appeal to people not traditionally Socialist. If you want to keep the Nazis out, you basically have to work with the SPD on some level.

Mind you, it is entirely possible to get them to support a monarchy. The SPD was very supportive before Kaiser Willy drug the country down, so it's mostly a matter of showing them it can work and is an alternative to Herr Hitler. Though you'd still need to convince the more Republican wings to listen to you first. Luckily, they're not the revolutionary type.

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[Random Member]

Quoting the American Revolution? Huh.

I'm not quite sure what was going on with our coalition, but looking at the rolls and the text, it appeals that the SPD (those are the communists, right?) are banking into a more moderate liberal stance in a ploy to fracture their rivals and make themselves electable. Certainly having the prince semi-officially on board with them speaks volumes.

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The SPD are the social democrats. The KPD are the commies.

 

[Valkur]

I like idea of bringing back the Monarchy with the help of the SPD and DVP later in quest.

 

[Fission Battery]

I like idea of bringing back the Monarchy with the help of the SPD and DVP later in quest.

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KarvokaQueen made a post a while back detailing the various royal candidates that could be put onto the throne and a comment on the state of monarchism. It's basically dead. We'd have to effectively rebuild the movement from the ground up. It only matters to us because our character is a bit of a monarchist. It's generally been dropped from the right in favour of a conservative or fascist dictatorship. There's also the fact that most of the potential heirs favour the Nazis or other conservatives over moderates and liberals. Those that would favour our party are low on the line of succession which would make it hard to get support to put them on the throne, since the few people left that want the monarchy restored don't want a moderate or liberal leaning monarch.

There's also the issue that by trying to restore the monarchy we may have to end up restoring all monarchies across Germany. It'd trigger a constitutional crisis since Germany is made up of states now, not kingdoms and principalities, and would result in Wilhelm III the Nazi in charge of Prussia. The Prussian state government at the time is control by the SPD I believe and they would contest him becoming king of Prussia for obvious reasons. If we try to only restore one monarchy, one which favours us, and make them Kaiser or Kaiserin of Germany, then other parties will take issue with that.

If we were to push a candidate, I like Otto, Archduke of Austria. He supports Pan-European integration and would give us ties to Austria. However Austria is a republic, so Otto is an Archduke without a throne or territory. I feel that it'd take a herculean effort to make him Kaiser of Germany and restore the monarch in Austria at the same time. It's also a way of annexing Austria that'd I feel would cause the most amount of tension. Britain and France would be concerned about the restoration of the monarchy and angry about Austria joining Germany. Meanwhile Czechoslovakia, Hungary, Yugoslavia, and Italy would be equal parts angry and paranoid about the restoration of the Hapsburgs. Italy would block Anschluss as well.

A republic, in whatever form it will take, is here to stay, barring a radical shift in the political landscape. If we want to reform Germany I think breaking Prussia up into smaller states might be a good idea, though I don't know if we could pull it off.

 

[Mortenkam]

There's also the issue that by trying to restore the monarchy we may have to end up restoring all monarchies across Germany. It'd trigger a constitutional crisis since Germany is made up of states now, not kingdoms and principalities, and would result in Wilhelm III the Nazi in charge of Prussia. The Prussian state government at the time is control by the SPD I believe and they would contest him becoming king of Prussia for obvious reasons. If we try to only restore one monarchy, one which favours us, and make them Kaiser or Kaiserin of Germany, then other parties will take issue with that.

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Well, this would have been true, if von Papen had not put the Prussian state government under direct control of the federal government, which also grants the federal government control of the Prussian police force
Preußenschlag - Wikipedia
That reminds me of something I have wanted to ask @KarvokaQueen. What is the status of the Bavarian police force, which I presume is a thing that exists?

 

[Always Late]

If we want to reform Germany I think breaking Prussia up into smaller states might be a good idea, though I don't know if we could pull it off.

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Killing an idea is always hard. That becomes doubly hard when there's a chief competitor about as strong as a wet noodle.

The Prussian military aristocracy that made the modern German state is still pulling the reins because people don't know who to trust or what metric still works. And the 'default' choice of WWI generals is either dying early or the source of the prime myth Weimar politics revolves around. Until it's known and accepted by all what role the German high command played in starting the Armistice, movement to take power from the old guard is going to end in universal pushback.

The start of reform isn't administration breakup. It's Ludendorff being forced to flee Germany for his life after his lies are exposed.

 

[Shebe Zuu]

Well, this would have been true, if von Papen had not put the Prussian state government under direct control of the federal government, which also grants the federal government control of the Prussian police force
Preußenschlag - Wikipedia
That reminds me of something I have wanted to ask @KarvokaQueen. What is the status of the Bavarian police force, which I presume is a thing that exists?

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Did the Preussenschlag happen? I was under the impression our little civil war in Bavaria disrupted all that, though I could be wrong.

 

[Mortenkam]

Did the Preussenschlag happen? I was under the impression our little civil war in Bavaria disrupted all that, though I could be wrong.

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Since Preussenschlag happened in July 1932 and the Munich Uprising happened in december 1932, then I do not think our civil war changed anything about that.

 

[Fission Battery]

Killing an idea is always hard. That becomes doubly hard when there's a chief competitor about as strong as a wet noodle.

The Prussian military aristocracy that made the modern German state is still pulling the reins because people don't know who to trust or what metric still works. And the 'default' choice of WWI generals is either dying early or the source of the prime myth Weimar politics revolves around. Until it's known and accepted by all what role the German high command played in starting the Armistice, movement to take power from the old guard is going to end in universal pushback.

The start of reform isn't administration breakup. It's Ludendorff being forced to flee Germany for his life after his lies are exposed.

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Unfortunately we won't be able to drive them from office or the country without concerted effort, to say the least. We'd have to purge a lot of the army, bureaucracy, and judiciary too. I agree that they're a rot eating away at the republic from within, but dealing with them would be very difficult. I think simply outlasting them and trying to stabilize the economy would go a long way to neutering their influence in the long run. Hitler is the immediate and most dangerous threat we have to face at this time, but Hindenburg and his ilk are the ones who set the stage for Hitler's rise to power.

 

[KarvokaQueen]

Say Karvoka, how hard would it be to find a collector with more money than sense? And maybe some of the hopefully-still-around documents of the weapon?

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As far as the world is concerned, this gun is some kind of bizarre and elaborate fiction, and will remain as such until Australian military archives more or less accidentally discover images of it in their vault in the 90s. It was a one-off prototype (As far as I'm aware), it's worth noting that it might not be totally useless. I mean, you are quite starved for automatic firepower of any kind.

What is the status of the Bavarian police force, which I presume is a thing that exists?

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Under Emergency Government control, and currently undergoing a purge of potential fifth columnists (i.e. Brownshirts), under von Xayder.

 

[Always Late]

Unfortunately we won't be able to drive them from office or the country without concerted effort, to say the least. We'd have to purge a lot of the army, bureaucracy, and judiciary too. I agree that they're a rot eating away at the republic from within, but dealing with them would be very difficult. I think simply outlasting them and trying to stabilize the economy would go a long way to neutering their influence in the long run. Hitler is the immediate and most dangerous threat we have to face at this time, but Hindenburg and his ilk are the ones who set the stage for Hitler's rise to power.

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I agree on the old dictatorship of WWI Germany setting the pieces out for an arch-conservative dictator, which Hitler neatly filled. The problem is that they're living symbols. You can't get rid of one, you have to do both. We can work on the various parts of the economy, but the Nazis will continue to grow in strength and oppositional aggressiveness until it's either an election or revolution. The easy part is that the chivalric ideals of the nobility still hold sway among much of the German population. "Oaths", you know? We prove Ludendorff lied and continued to lie, he's a pariah even among his own supporters. The tricky part is the plan to discredit the Prussian nobility needs two parts to function. One, we have to get our hands on the High Command's archives to dig up all the truths about the war the right-wingers would rather not come to light. It's obviously something Hindenburg, his son, and their allies would destroy if they knew what we wanted. We keep the originals intact, we can pull off step two. We'd need to spread the contents of the archives far and wide. That'd mean nationwide print production and distribution. That's the frankly tricky part, as this is no longer the era of total government information control ala Imperial Germany, but it's still not total freedom.

If Ludendorff is disgraced, the fundamental ideology of the NSADP is fundamentally discredited. The party, it's members, and the talking points either disappear overnight or make futile struggles in their death-throes. Admittedly, that is a bit like saying 'your strategy to defeat the Nazis is Win And Win Big', but we are in the time of history in Germany where there's one final chance to drag that all into the light.

As far as the world is concerned, this gun is some kind of bizarre and elaborate fiction, and will remain as such until Australian military archives more or less accidentally discover images of it in their vault in the 90s.

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Ah damn. So much for recovering actual documentation.

it's worth noting that it might not be totally useless. I mean, you are quite starved for automatic firepower of any kind.

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... true. We are in pipe-bomb territory after all. Best not break the thing then.

 

[Fission Battery]

I agree on the old dictatorship of WWI Germany setting the pieces out for an arch-conservative dictator, which Hitler neatly filled. The problem is that they're living symbols. You can't get rid of one, you have to do both. We can work on the various parts of the economy, but the Nazis will continue to grow in strength and oppositional aggressiveness until it's either an election or revolution. The easy part is that the chivalric ideals of the nobility still hold sway among much of the German population. "Oaths", you know? We prove Ludendorff lied and continued to lie, he's a pariah even among his own supporters. The tricky part is the plan to discredit the Prussian nobility needs two parts to function. One, we have to get our hands on the High Command's archives to dig up all the truths about the war the right-wingers would rather not come to light. It's obviously something Hindenburg, his son, and their allies would destroy if they knew what we wanted. We keep the originals intact, we can pull off step two. We'd need to spread the contents of the archives far and wide. That'd mean nationwide print production and distribution. That's the frankly tricky part, as this is no longer the era of total government information control ala Imperial Germany, but it's still not total freedom.

If Ludendorff is disgraced, the fundamental ideology of the NSADP is fundamentally discredited. The party, it's members, and the talking points either disappear overnight or make futile struggles in their death-throes. Admittedly, that is a bit like saying 'your strategy to defeat the Nazis is Win And Win Big', but we are in the time of history in Germany where there's one final chance to drag that all into the light.

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That's exceedingly naïve, optimistic, and misinformed. If such documents exist they will be dismissed. Hindenburg and Ludendorff are war heroes, end of story. Those that love them will continue to do so and all evidence to the contrary is a fabrication. Oaths and pseudo-chivalric ideals are meaningless in Weimar. It's a polarized, post-truth society. Those that care already hate Hindenburg and his ilk, even then it's tempered. He did push the Russian Army out of West Prussia, amongst other accomplishments, so he's seen as a hero.

Ludendorff being popular is not the lynchpin of Hitler's ideology. He's nothing to them, especially since Ludendorff has already been disgraced and withdrawn from politics from 1925 onwards. Hitler is the lynchpin of Nazism. Hitler is Nazism. It's Hitlerism, not Ludendorffism.

Our main hope of stopping Hitler is to build up a coalition, hopefully steal some votes from him, and convince the conservative establishment that they can't trust or control him, so Hindenburg can't be pressured into appointing Hitler as Chancellor. That's been our only hope since day one really. That and killing Hitler of course, as I have often mentioned as a last resort.

 

[Valkur]

Gregor Strasser can help us if we reach out to him somehow. Maybe have some covert way to prop him up and cause the NSADAP to splinter during an election?

Additionally, as long as we can keep Hitler from power and keep the other parties united around the truth that Hitler cannot buy or sway anyone then we keep the Chancelorship from him.

DNVA will lose enough chairs that there tough talk will be the only thing they have left as they cannot even form a Government with Hitler without the South or Hitler having Bavaria.

With Strasser still in the party and a source of conflict the Nazi Party will lose cohesion and burn itself out until we can win back the rest of Germany in snap elections.

 

[Always Late]

That's exceedingly naïve, optimistic, and misinformed. If such documents exist they will be dismissed. Hindenburg and Ludendorff are war heroes, end of story. Those that love them will continue to do so and all evidence to the contrary is a fabrication. Oaths and pseudo-chivalric ideals are meaningless in Weimar. It's a polarized, post-truth society. Those that care already hate Hindenburg and his ilk, even then it's tempered. He did push the Russian Army out of West Prussia, amongst other accomplishments, so he's seen as a hero.

Ludendorff being popular is not the lynchpin of Hitler's ideology. He's nothing to them, especially since Ludendorff has already been disgraced and withdrawn from politics from 1925 onwards. Hitler is the lynchpin of Nazism. Hitler is Nazism. It's Hitlerism, not Ludendorffism.

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On the contrary: This isn't 2018. It's 1932. The disgrace of the "November Criminals" entirely exists because Ludendorff, Hindenburg, and their cronies ran a spin campaign to blame the civilian leaders pre and post-revolution for the loss of their war. If the disgrace of the Armistice is shown to be their doing, that's a whole new ball game. And again, the modern-day American political buzz words are completely inapplicable to the current situation. We're running a coalition of nobility, men whose entire justification for social superiority is that they are a higher moral class of person. The non-nobility members, especially among the rural population, hold similar old-style values about keeping your word, helping family, serving the German nation, and being proud of your racial heritage.

Germany, for all the liberalism of the Weinmar culture one finds, is a highly conservative nation. The old-school European conservatives.

As for the idea of a 'lynchpin' of Nazi ideology, you're right. Ludendorff's lies isn't. And I've never claimed it is. That's because the myths of how WWI was lost are, in your own words, what set the stage for Hitler. It's the gateway by which all of the far-right parties like the NSADP enter the legitimate political sphere. So, if Hitler doesn't have a stage, he doesn't get to rise.

 

[KarvokaQueen]

Ludendorff, Hindenburg

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To intercede before things become uncivil, I will say that Ludendorff is basically totally irrelevant to this quest. While he was a committed Nazi (and is a committed conspiracy theorist), his eccentricities, and tirades against von Hindenburg, have completely isolated him from any kind of relevance in politics. He has also already been publically humiliated and disgraced, during the 1925 Presidential election, where he got an absolutely pitiful 1.1% of the vote.

Hindenburg, for his part, is already largely done. His lung cancer is terminal, and it's a matter of when, not if, it kills him.

 

[Always Late]

To intercede before things become uncivil, I will say that Ludendorff is basically totally irrelevant to this quest. While he was a committed Nazi (and is a committed conspiracy theorist), his eccentricities, and tirades against von Hindenburg, have completely isolated him from any kind of relevance in politics. He has also already been publically humiliated and disgraced, during the 1925 Presidential election, where he got an absolutely pitiful 1.1% of the vote.

Hindenburg, for his part, is already largely done. His lung cancer is terminal, and it's a matter of when, not if, it kills him.

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While I'd be very foolish to try and make my play out to be just as effective if the two aren't getting their dirty laundry aired, I do still hold that revealing the contents of the war archives would take alot of wind out of the far-right's sails.

 

[Valkur]

To intercede before things become uncivil, I will say that Ludendorff is basically totally irrelevant to this quest. While he was a committed Nazi (and is a committed conspiracy theorist), his eccentricities, and tirades against von Hindenburg, have completely isolated him from any kind of relevance in politics. He has also already been publically humiliated and disgraced, during the 1925 Presidential election, where he got an absolutely pitiful 1.1% of the vote.

Hindenburg, for his part, is already largely done. His lung cancer is terminal, and it's a matter of when, not if, it kills him.

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...new quest idea. Hugo Strauss cures Hindenburg for the sake Germany!

 

[KarvokaQueen]

...new quest idea. Hugo Strauss cures Hindenburg for the sake Germany!

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Hah, Hugo's an excellent Surgeon, but at this stage the best thing you can do for Hindenburg is make him as comfortable as possible. Cancer is an awful way to go.

 

[Valkur]

Hah, Hugo's an excellent Surgeon, but at this stage the best thing you can do for Hindenburg is make him as comfortable as possible. Cancer is an awful way to go.

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It really is. That man is so fucked it's not even fair. His family is in debt and held by balls by extremists as his son wonders to go along with a plot that can damn and not save the name he was taught to treat with maximum respect.

 

[Fission Battery]

On the contrary: This isn't 2018. It's 1932. The disgrace of the "November Criminals" entirely exists because Ludendorff, Hindenburg, and their cronies ran a spin campaign to blame the civilian leaders pre and post-revolution for the loss of their war. If the disgrace of the Armistice is shown to be their doing, that's a whole new ball game. And again, the modern-day American political buzz words are completely inapplicable to the current situation. We're running a coalition of nobility, men whose entire justification for social superiority is that they are a higher moral class of person. The non-nobility members, especially among the rural population, hold similar old-style values about keeping your word, helping family, serving the German nation, and being proud of your racial heritage.

Germany, for all the liberalism of the Weinmar culture one finds, is a highly conservative nation. The old-school European conservatives.

As for the idea of a 'lynchpin' of Nazi ideology, you're right. Ludendorff's lies isn't. And I've never claimed it is. That's because the myths of how WWI was lost are, in your own words, what set the stage for Hitler. It's the gateway by which all of the far-right parties like the NSADP enter the legitimate political sphere. So, if Hitler doesn't have a stage, he doesn't get to rise.

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The myths and lies perpetuated by entire segments of Germany's population will not be easily defeated if we wave some documents in their face. I say it's a polarized post-truth society because in sections of Germany it is. That spin campaigned worked, unfortunately, and it's over ten years too late to seize control of the narrative. Your notion about conservatives caring about chivalry is also extremely misinformed. The conservatives revealed themselves for the biased authoritarians that they when judges, civil servants, and policemen aided and abetted murderers who killed members of other political parties. While harshly sentencing, or outright murdering, socialists or communists criminals who only damaged property.

The Nazis' popularity is also more than simply riding outraged generated by the 'Stab in the Back' myth too. They are a leviathan not easily slain, unless we cut off the head. Germany was never invaded too. It called for a ceasefire before the Entente could cross the border. Therefore in the mind of the average German, they were not defeated militarily, and evidence to contrary is ignored.

You're weirdly fixating on this like it's some sort of silver bullet or smoking gun we could use to discredit not only the Nazis but the entire conservative political class. That ain't happening.

 

[Always Late]

Your notion about conservatives caring about chivalry is also extremely misinformed. The conservatives revealed themselves for the biased authoritarians that they when judges, civil servants, and policemen aided and abetted murderers who killed members of other political parties. While harshly sentencing, or outright murdering, socialists or communists criminals who only damaged property.

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You're thinking story-book fantasy chivalry. AKA, the sanitized version meant for a modern democratic audience. I'm talking about actual post-medieval chivalry. The one where, well, nobility and their political allies got better treatment, and giving a harsh sentence to anyone who fight against 'the state', which was the nobility and their allies, is completely the norm.

This is the main problem that's going to see the plans to de-throne Hitler fail: You can't read 21st century American politics into 1932 Weinmar Germany. It's completely detached from the historical reality.

The Nazis' popularity is also more than simply riding outraged generated by the 'Stab in the Back' myth too. They are a leviathan not easily slain, unless we cut off the head. Germany was never invaded too. It called for a ceasefire before the Entente could cross the border. Therefore in the mind of the average German, they were not defeated militarily, and evidence to contrary is ignored.

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Except that was only possible due to the wartime restrictions on information. The rules on the press in 1930s Weinmar Germany are far more lax, and the people now know things like the utter horror of the trenches of France and Belgium.

You're weirdly fixating on this like it's some sort of silver bullet or smoking gun we could use to discredit not only the Nazis but the entire conservative political class. That ain't happening.

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*points up*

While I'd be very foolish to try and make my play out to be just as effective if the two aren't getting their dirty laundry aired, I do still hold that revealing the contents of the war archives would take alot of wind out of the far-right's sails.

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You make me out to say we should self-destruct our own political party in the name of democracy. Which would perhaps acceptable to a 21st century student speaking in some definition of moral hindsight, but is a bit silly to try and seriously discuss in the "present".

 

[PyrrosWarrior]

Failure! Project delayed by a turn. Franz takes Hugo out for a drink to prevent him from going to Berlin and throttling the Postmaster.

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Kinda curious what exactly the DC for the paper is. You would think 30 would be high enough for a "very high" chance of success. I mean, when I think "very high" in terms of rankings, I think 10-15 DC. Not complaining, so much as just commenting my first thought on it.

As far as the world is concerned, this gun is some kind of bizarre and elaborate fiction, and will remain as such until Australian military archives more or less accidentally discover images of it in their vault in the 90s. It was a one-off prototype (As far as I'm aware), it's worth noting that it might not be totally useless. I mean, you are quite starved for automatic firepower of any kind.

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Would you guys mind saying more about what is so special about this gun? The wikipedia post just mentions it as an Austro-Hungarian SMG prototype. I am not really a weaponry nerd. I prefer the higher details of history and the politics of it than the nitty-gritty stuff like battle formations, weaponry, and the physical workings of the micro-details. Is it only the fact that there is supposed to be just 1 of them?