- Location
- New York
- Pronouns
- He/Him
[X] Plan Tanks and Shells
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- Location
- Minnesota
[X] Plan Tanks and Bombs
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
Up to a point.
If we're launching millions of these drones carrying ludicrously toxic incendiaries into a zone a hundred kilometers on a side, we're going to cause ecological damage and civilian casualties that are big even on the scale the Seelie measure things.
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
The catch is that if we don't focus our efforts on destroying the alien infantry and pushing back the front line, then the enemy is under no obligation to even bother reinforcing their existing beachheads on our planet and is free to drop their reinforcement wave on a third, entirely different location. That's pretty bad for us.
If, on the other hand, we're counterattacking hard enough against their second bridgehead that the situation remains precarious, then they are much more likely to divert forces to reinforcing that bridgehead. Which is very convenient for us because their forces are a lot less mobile after dropping from orbit the first time.
I think they absolutely are, because (1) they're relying on the IFVs to thicken their laser defense network, without which nuclear artillery shells start landing unacceptably close to them, and (2) they're relying on the infantry and IFVs to screen them so we can't get commandos close enough to, say, break the tracks on the things. This will become especially serious as an issue when we start carrying around the new incendiary grenades, because with those, you really don't want Seelie infantry getting close to your tanks.
think that maybe that's specifically contradicted by facts in the updates. Even if you're right about that part, your argument boils down to "it is useless to defeat the enemy in detail." Because your argument is, approximately, that it's pointless to blow up 50 enemy IFVs now if they're just going to get 150 more next month. But if you don't seize the opportunity to inflict casualties on the enemy while his forces are divided and the enemy's large replenishment force is in transit, then you will be faced with an even worse situation when the replenishments actually arrive and the enemy is fully reinforced and even more numerous.
It is much better to attack an enemy force of 200, while the other 200 are still on the way, than to bide your time and confront all 400 of them at once. The Lanchester laws are not your friend in that situation.
YES.
Because frankly, the best tanks we have are about co-equal with an enemy IFV, at best. The tanks don't upgrade in the field because this isn't an RTS game. While we will have greater numbers of tanks more capable of credibly threatening enemy tanks in the future, we do not have them now. Expending our existing tanks to destroy what they can, while it is vulnerable and before the enemy reinforcements show up, is very much a good idea for us.
Actually, long range heavy ATGMs are explicitly designed to kill enemy armor in the open.
By comparison, massed artillery bombardment is relatively ineffective, because it would take a direct hit to have any plausible chance of disabling tanks, unless we are throwing nuclear carpet-bombing at the enemy, in which case we have other problems.
Red Rationalist
Spinning in eternity
- Location
- Andro-Orlando Hair Saloon
- Pronouns
- They/Them
I'm not taking criticism about treating this as an RTS game on board when the alternative strategy amounts to "exchange our heavy tank in the field for supporting units, right before reinforcements are landing". Any gap created here will be limited timewise until the reinforcements arrive, and we are far better of making this exchange for parity. People talk about how vulnerable the enemy tanks are without IFV, but the IFVs are even more vulnerable without tanks! It's a lot easier to kill an IFV without armour support, using our overly heavy tank divisions. It's a lot harder to turn an infantry advantage into losses for the enemy armour.
You know what I'm talking about. This isn't warfare against a modern near-peer opponent, it's warfare against an opponent who is immune to frontal tank destroyer shots. ATGMs aren't going to kill the alien tanks if they are forward facing. I'm not even sure how reliable those can kill an attacking tank formation sideways.
No, it isn't. The last time they attempted an unsupported landing, our lases killed 2 of their landing capsules. We have since increased production, especially the one of anti-orbital submarines. Any effort to land those forces indepdently would open up a second, unconnected front that takes high casulties, with twice the forces engaging (twice the attrition) and little room for reinforcement. This isn't a good play for the enemy, nor is it influenced by the number of infantry there. Your analysis is flawed, and there is no benefit to opening up a second front for the enemy.
- Pronouns
- He/Him
[X] Plan Tanks and Bombs
@Blackstar do they still just have 5 assault carriers? Or has the one we shot down been replaced?
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
I think that to an extent, our army's doctrine on artillery being effective as a major killer is a case of "refighting the last war," in that we're accustomed to fighting enemies that don't have workable artillery defense networks. It may well be that in-universe, the entire concept of long range ballistic artillery bombardment is undergoing a transition sort of like horse cavalry did starting in the mid-1800s. Horse cavalry aren't at all useless on a late 19th century battlefield, but if you try to use your cavalry the way Napoleon used his cuirassiers, you're going to get them all killed and accomplish very little. They're just not the decisive arm anymore.
The same may be true of our artillery, with only our willingness to spam nuclear shells keeping it relevant.
That's the trouble. We can't make this exchange for parity, because we don't have parity.
Moreover, if we turn our armor against the enemy's lighter units... well, what are their heavier units supposed to do, anyway? Sit on their hands?
Because you're fighting a large scale positional war, not a 'white room' conflict between one of your vehicles and one of theirs.
If we are fighting together, my ATGM position or tank destroyer probably cannot line up a kill-shot on an IFV or tank approaching MY position. The enemy's frontal armor is too good.
But it absolutely can line up a kill-shot on the flanks of a vehicle approaching YOUR position a kilometer or two to the west. This becomes a matter of terrain, of shaping the battlefield, of threatening the flanks of an attacking force. Because the enemy is so heavily outnumbered and tactically simplistic, it's hard for them to avoid giving us openings like that when they're on the offensive.
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Red Rationalist
Spinning in eternity
- Location
- Andro-Orlando Hair Saloon
- Pronouns
- They/Them
Well, I'm operating on the assumption that a destroyed tank can do very little to deter an armoured attack. If we destroy a sizeable portion via massed artillery fire, those dead tanks can't shoot our own armour down, nor attack our manevouring units in the future. Both plans make an exchange, the difference is that exploiting the armour protection gap against AFVs with mobile units can be done easier than exploiting an IFV gap against tanks.
I have to stress here how much of the enemy army ability relies on having tanks. We can't hold the lines due to tanks. We can't skirmish deep due to tanks. We can't perform counteroffensives due to tanks. We can't encircle, break into the rear because of tanks. Tanks are vital for ground capability in defending against attacks. Without tanks to protect them, a lot more of their forces would have already died due to attacks.
Considering the 120mm tank destroyer gun has considerable trouble getting trough the side either, I don't think the elf ATGM is getting many side kill shots either. It can theoretically, but you need a lot of luck. I'm going to maintain that it's a lot easier to concentrate tank formations to waltz over enemy IFV than it is to get infantry ATGM's to destroy enemy tanks. Mobile units can chase and threaten to encircle, ATGMs aren't offensive weapons and can be avoided by moving your armour back.
- Pronouns
- he/him
[X] Plan Tanks and Bombs
- Location
- UTC+0
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- He/Him/They
We already know the old ATGM's could do rear shots on IFV's, if the new ones (which are mostly crew mounted fyi) can't do side shots I will be very surprised and disappointed at our engineering teams.
In any case, they are still useful against enemy tanks, we can probably throw tracks with them, and knock out their optics. A mobility/firepower klll is not as good as straight up destroying it, but its not to be discounted.
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I'm really confused now, because these two things are both core concepts in support of Case Orange? We can't hope to match the enemy tanks anywhere that they commit in meaningful numbers, which is why Case Orange sacrifices one armored corps to pull all their aggro and open the rest of the front up for 4 other armored corps and 5 heavy mechanized armies equipped with the T36C's to eat enemy IFV's and infantry as they please. The 58th Armored Corps is one of ten units we have on the island which possess AFV variants equipped with light gas guns and heavy ATGMs that can kill enemy IFVs from all angles. Sacrificing 10% of our capable offensive units to pull aggro off the other 90% is the point, we're not actually planning to break through with the 58th's suicide attacks, just get the enemy to commit their tanks to killing the 58th so that they can't commit to stopping 9 other heavy mobile formations from smashing through the lines at will.
Artillery has time and again only had suppressive effects rather than achieving hard kills even on enemy IFVs much less enemy tanks, there is no weight of indirect fire artillery that will kill enemy tanks if we allow them to remain in combined arms formations. So with a lack of any way to hard kill enemy tanks in a straight fight we need to remove the other parts of the combined arms forces, which is the entire strategic logic behind Case Orange. If we allow the enemy armor to stay dispersed across the front then they will have complete combined arms teams everywhere along the front instead of concentrated primarily against the 58th, meaning our artillery + mechanized combo punches will fail to do significant damage everywhere along the front instead of just where the 58th is being sacrificed.
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Cannon Omake: Millions Flock Around Kuriuq in Solidarity with Danaan
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- UTC+0
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- He/Him/They
Millions Flock Around Kuriuq in Solidarity with Danaan
Tens of thousands of pro-Seelie demonstrators have gathered around their legation and at UFL Headquarters in Lopnak, protesting against the barbaric invaders who have invaded our flockmates in Daanan, as the death toll continues to climb despite the stalwart defence thrown by their citizen-soldiers in the face of the spacebound imperialists.
Across our glorious Democratic Republic, many have taken flight in order to show their solidarity with the people that have come to the aid of the Lirrir despite the uncertainty surrounding the survival of our species against the treacherous Synod. Over Palelang, Romphós and Skureng thousands have taken flight. It is most unfortunate that the nations of Kuriuq will be unable to provide the same level of assistance they gave us, despite the victories arising from our cooperation in preparing for the flight of the Investigator. That is why it is essential that the spirit of Lungta carries us forward in overachieving the 5 year plan, so that we may draw closer and closer to the level of development required to stand on our own amongst the stars and aid our landbound friends!
Further afoot, even in the reactionary monarchy of Davuth, hundreds of demonstrators have been taken flight despite strict controls over social gatherings and warnings to do otherwise, showing the unity of our species in showing sympathy to the the proud Seelie nation in their defense against the imperialists.
These sentiments have also led to action, with international cooperation at its highest point since the dissolution of the Council of Nations, already plans for the United Nations to make use of record contributions to bolster our orbital presence are underway, with a multinational effort for the construction of a joint space station to pioneer our orbital industry, conduct scientific experiments and more adequately integrate the SAS Investigator to our orbital infrastructure.
Further, in light of the discovery of the new threat in the form of the so called "Organization of Free Planets", tentative agreements in regards to the formation of a joint international committee for the development orbital defences has been proposed in light of this imprecedented threat, to deter and prevent the agression of those who would wish to exploit our planet. Our state of course, will continue with its own independent efforts, but we must not let agressors let exploit our differences for their benefit. We must learn from the tragedy of our ancestors, so that we shall never turn arms against each other in the name of imperialists.
Our enemies are advanced and ruthless, but the Seelie have shown us that with the unity of our people's we can deal great blows to those who see themselves as above us, the flight of the Investigator is proof of that. But to do that, we must continue unerringly on the march of progress. With the help of our Elven friends, the ingenuity of our scientists and heroic socialist labor, there is no doubt we can advance 50 years in 5! Glory to Chairman Soun Sokhen, the 5 year plan, and the Democratic People's Republic of Pasupok!
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Hell yeah owl juche, love to see it folks
Oh I should probably vote too
[X] Plan Tanks and Bombs
Oh I should probably vote too
[X] Plan Tanks and Bombs
- Location
- The United States
- Pronouns
- She/Her
The arguably larger advantage of yellow vs orange is that the former has far less of a risk of bogging down and to an extent focuses on inflicting frontline attrition rather than larger-scale mechanized maneuvers with a lot of mass as the rainy season is only getting rainier. Further, the decentralization of armor lets you well, avoid commitments to sectors where they might be able to strongly oppose you, favoring inflicting increased casualties instead of grand breakthrough operations against an enemy that has shown several times to need minimal supply lines to keep fighting and a force that can break any form of encirclement. Conversely, orange commits to more aggressive operations on an unconventional axis to provide the largest political threat and partially to seize your own politically significant objectives, to an extent forcing the deployment of reinforcements into the sector due to threatening the rear of Alien forces. There are tactical arguments for both, but Yellow isn't exactly that strange just because it calls for more aggressive localized fire missions instead of more general artillery fires into the depth.
- Location
- Alaska
[X] Plan Tanks and Shells
We're on an island at the start of hypercane season, it may be too risky to try for big vehicle maneuvers supported by "amphibious operations", and one of our biggest issues is that we built all this artillery that can't really be used until more IFV's go down.
We're on an island at the start of hypercane season, it may be too risky to try for big vehicle maneuvers supported by "amphibious operations", and one of our biggest issues is that we built all this artillery that can't really be used until more IFV's go down.
Chimeraguard
We do deserve to exist.
Hmm, I'm more conflicted now, but I still think Plan Orange is our best bet strategically. Forcing the deployment of the enemy reinforcements to Duillech instead of anywhere else is valuable. Like, if the enemy decided to seriously drop on say, one of the Mouran Chain Home Islands...it would cost them very heavily, no doubt about that. The anti-orbital defenses would take their toll, and they'd be thrown into a meatgrinder of urban warfare. But they could do it, and they'd probably win the battle for that island even with their losses so long as enough tanks made planetfall, which would blow out a major chunk of our industrial base and put an equally large amount of our population under enemy control (not to mention the sheer collateral damage that would ensue on them from urban warfare.)
That's not to say it's certain they will, it would be a big gamble on their part. But it is enough of a risk that forcing things on Duillech so the enemy feels like they need to focus on reinforcing it rather than making gains elsewhere has significant use.
On the other hand, it would be embarrassing if Plan Orange got stopped dead its tracks because "mud."
That's not to say it's certain they will, it would be a big gamble on their part. But it is enough of a risk that forcing things on Duillech so the enemy feels like they need to focus on reinforcing it rather than making gains elsewhere has significant use.
On the other hand, it would be embarrassing if Plan Orange got stopped dead its tracks because "mud."
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- Location
- The great frozen north
Dang... would we have totally destroyed the cube with the 1 gigaton blast? Denying the aliens stuff to show to the investors might've helped more than the moral save from a smaller nuke. Oh well, water under the bridge.
What I am worried about is, how survivable is the CREW of our tanks? If we burn out our stock of metal to kill some enemy IFVs but kill most of our tankers in the process, would it badly impact the newly raised tank divisions we're about to crank out?
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- UTC+0
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- He/Him/They
Apparently not, thought it would have had a better chance of it being yeeted out of the Sallie's reach.
All our vehicles are deathtraps, the tanks can survive frontal laser rifle fire but that's it. We will lose a lot of tankers no matter how this goes, which is why we pushed hard to do the training action a couple of turns ago. Our ability to produce tanks is almost certainly going to outstrip our ability to produce tankers of the same quality as we are accustomed to.
Chimeraguard
We do deserve to exist.
As I understand it, no, but it would have had a chance of sending the Cube spaceborne.
Not significantly, since we took the Armor Training Programs earlier. We've already cycled out a lot of our armor veterans to keep the quality of our newly trained tank crews high. Plus, the tank crews themselves are probably pretty survivable (or at least they are compared to the sheer firepower the enemy can put out) because the crew compartment is all at the very rear of the tank.