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Ad Astra ex Lutum

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Also while I'm at it, a few additional information transfers from the Discord:
- Restart Theoretical Infantry Programs can be expected to start producing results in approximately 3 months, barring extremely high or low rolls:


- Restart Theoretical Infantry Programs will not require us to redesign our IFVs to accommodate the armor's power-assist systems:


- Restart Theoretical Infantry Programs will also modify Support Weapon Production Programs (I think? Might be misreading this lol):


- Attritional Drones have an extremely limited to distinguish targets, as a result of the physical limitations on the sensors that can be fit into them, with the main guidance method being to designate an area within which they will hunt down targets:


(and to be upfront, there were arguments about whether to do drones on the Discord in which I was involved as a result of these quotes, so to be clear I'm just transferring the relevant information, not trying to restart that particular fight lol)

- Attritional Drones will incorporate warheads with the same composition as the Standardized High Effect Grenades, if we do both:
 
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Crazycryodude said:
Well they're mostly doing mass shootings in random public spaces to cause general terror, so not exactly a heroic reputation
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"When the cowardly government ran away to leave you all to die or be enslaved underneath the lashes of the sellouts and their alien masters, we, the True Sons, stayed behind to protect you. Through all those long months and years of suffering and indignity, we were by your side, striking at the traitor, the opportunist, the [elf ethnic slur]. And now the weaklings and fools in the central government have come back, acting as if they were the ones who sheltered you during those black nights of want and hardship. But you all know the truth of who supported you through all that time. We don't ask for your membership. Only for you support to ensure that the war is only truly over when we, the people, once again stand triumphant over our own dear home."

This is a problem we can handle in the future but it is going to be a problem and not one that will be simple to handle.
 
My own attempt at visualizing the forces involved at Duilech atm. The alien force disposition and exact locations of formations are all basically guesses.
 
-[ ] Next Generation Nuclear Production (-10 MC x12)
-[ ] Standardized High Effect Grenades (-20 MC)
-[ ] Restart Theoretical Infantry Programs (-25 MC)
-[ ] Advanced MLRS Systems (-25 MC)
-[ ] Second Generation Airframes (-20 MC x3)
-[ ] Expand Alien Agitprop (-15 MC)

115/115 MC

I'm considering a sightly modified version of @Chimeraguard's plan that swaps out the railgun tank to fit in both MLRS and VTOLs. Not that I think we shouldn't do the tank or anything, but just because I feel like all three are ones we want to start very soon, and this way we could start two of them sooner instead of one.

MLRS with it's ground/sea skimming missiles reads like it's own version of anti-laser munitions, which will be important to trying to punch through their LAA net. And while the Kelpies can fill a similar strike role with their own hypersonics I feel like the VTOLs ability to get into launch position faster with less warning time, as well as any possible range increase from launching at a higher speed, would mesh very nicely with our general high pace doctrine. Not to mention the overall performance of our VTOLs vs theirs in that last fight means it should be self evident they need better air to air capabilities.

Regardless, whichever we don't pick this turn we should absolutely grab next time.
 
Some AI designs from the discord.


"The last time I was in the army they gave me a spear"


"The atom is our friend and helper" is what it's supposed to say, the text is gibberish
 
It's a helluva galaxy when you your failed invasion of a planet full of owl people leads years later to staring down an incoming nuclear missile swarm from fanatic elves. Life as a space mercenary must be wild.
 
[] Plan: Scian Mall
-[]Plan Yellow
-[]Expand Housing Allocations: (-20 Mobilization Capacity for 4 Months)
-[]Standardized High Effect Grenades: (-20 Mobilization Capacity)
-[]Attritional Drones: (-25 Mobilization Capacity)
-[]Restart Theoretical Infantry Programs: (-25 Mobilization Capacity)
-[]Next Generation Nuclear Production: (-10 Mobilization Capacity for 12 Months)
-[]Expand Alien Agitprop: (-15 Mobilization Capacity)

I'm way too tired to pretend to be a crazy elf right now.

Droneswarm + Grenades = Heavy enemy armor casualties

Housing allocations are just common sense, as are our improved tech programs.

We now know enough about the enemy to make usable agitprop, they're actually worse people than us in spite of everything so this will work enough to be useful.

Tanks next turn.

Vote for this plan.
 
CrabMonarchy said:
- Attritional Drones have an extremely limited to distinguish targets, as a result of the physical limitations on the sensors that can be fit into them, with the main guidance method being to designate an area within which they will hunt down targets:


(and to be upfront, there were arguments about whether to do drones on the Discord in which I was involved as a result of these quotes, so to be clear I'm just transferring the relevant information, not trying to restart that particular fight lol)

- Attritional Drones will incorporate warheads with the same composition as the Standardized High Effect Grenades, if we do both:
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Well, that presents an obvious solution.

Specify relatively small killboxes for the attritional drones to attack- say, directly on top of confirmed enemy positions and everything within 250 meters of them. After all, their main purpose is to be, in effect, a more conveniently 3D-printable form of artillery shell that exists to be so cheap and mass-producible that it is literally cheaper for us to build and launch one than for them to pull the trigger on a laser AA gun.

EDIT:

Like, yes, they kill everything in that grid square, but that's not really all that different from pulverizing the grid square with artillery barrages or a small tactical nuke, and it gives us more different ways to flatten the grid square that rely on different industrial supply chains.
 
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Simon_Jester said:
Well, that presents an obvious solution.

Specify relatively small killboxes for the attritional drones to attack- say, directly on top of confirmed enemy positions and everything within 250 meters of them. After all, their main purpose is to be, in effect, a more conveniently 3D-printable form of artillery shell that exists to be so cheap and mass-producible that it is literally cheaper for us to build and launch one than for them to pull the trigger on a laser AA gun.

EDIT:

Like, yes, they kill everything in that grid square, but that's not really all that different from pulverizing the grid square with artillery barrages or a small tactical nuke, and it gives us more different ways to flatten the grid square that rely on different industrial supply chains.
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Agreed like Care about collateral damage is way gone like we have repeatedly used nukes in last stands and to deny areas and using it in artillery strikes as well.
 
MSH said:
Droneswarm + Grenades = Heavy enemy armor casualties
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I'm not quite sure this but is true, definitely will score some armor disablements (turn em into a sightless box) and definitely a new tool in the belt for close range infantry but I don't feel the droneswatm that this will produces armor mission kills, the flammable goo will well splash off the Aliens tanks and certaintly shouldn't be relied on for hard counters. I think the dronesawem is for keeping up constant harassment, which turns there infantry useless as they succumb to fatigue.
 
Battleherb said:
I'm not quite sure this but is true, definitely will score some armor disablements (turn em into a sightless box) and definitely a new tool in the belt for close range infantry but I don't feel the droneswatm that this will produces armor mission kills, the flammable goo will well splash off the Aliens tanks and certaintly shouldn't be relied on for hard counters. I think the dronesawem is for keeping up constant harassment, which turns there infantry useless as they succumb to fatigue.
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While I do agree with your description of the drones purpose, the friendship goo is actually meant for anti-tank work. It won't defeat their armor, but it will annihilate any sensors it hits, and a blind tank is a dead tank.
 
Moratorium's up, so...

[X] Plan Tanks and Bombs
-[X] Plan Orange
-[X] Next Generation Nuclear Production (-10 MC x12)
-[X] Standardized High Effect Grenades (-20 MC)
-[X] Restart Theoretical Infantry Programs (-25 MC)
-[X] Advanced Tank Programs (-45 MC)
-[X] Expand Alien Agitprop (-15 MC)

I will argue that the Advanced Tank Program is important to get first, moreso than the VTOL and MLRS (though we absolutely want those next turn at the latest.) The Advanced Tank Program promises a combat vehicle that can penetrate alien tank armor from the front. That's a massive game-changer given that the primary enemy doctrine thus far has been to use their tanks as nigh-unstoppable spearheads (demoted from completely unstoppable with the deployment of the 152mm Light Gas Gun.) Right now even our best guns can only get through the side armor after multiple shots or a good hit on a weak point. Something that can reliably pen from the front at any range being put into large-scale production means that the enemy spearheads get worn down too quickly against our superior numbers.

That drastically reduces the ability of the enemy to launch a campaign to take an island with any real chance of success unless the situation greatly changes (which it always could.) The 2nd Gen Airframes could probably accomplish something similar by working with our laser Corvettes to render the skies inhospitable to enemy aircraft, meaning they can't use the VTOLs safely, but the Advanced Tank finishes quicker (9-12 months, leaning closer to the latter to begin mass production vs ~18 for the 2nd Gen Airframes.)
 
[X] Plan Tanks and Bombs
-[X] Plan Orange
-[X] Next Generation Nuclear Production (-10 MC x12)
-[X] Standardized High Effect Grenades (-20 MC)
-[X] Restart Theoretical Infantry Programs (-25 MC)
-[X] Advanced Tank Programs (-45 MC)
-[X] Expand Alien Agitprop (-15 MC)
 
So, I think Plan Orange is making a mistake. This is a fairly straightforward flanking move, with our rushed, first wave tanks going up against still nearly invincible alien tanks. Conventional armoured attacks are very unlikely to work if the enemy tanks aren't vulnerable from the front so I'm proposing we pick [] Plan Green instead, foucssing on overwhelming fire power against the tanks specifically to even the odds. The alien infantry without significant tank support can do little to effectily oppose us, so it's time to focus on the pillar of alien ground forces. Our first focus must be on degreading enemy armour, in order to launch any further operations, not relying on operational surprise for flanking.

[X] Plan Tanks and Overwhelming Anti-Tank Fire
-[X] Plan Green
-[X] Next Generation Nuclear Production (-10 MC x12)
-[X] Standardized High Effect Grenades (-20 MC)
-[X] Restart Theoretical Infantry Programs (-25 MC)
-[X] Advanced Tank Programs (-45 MC)
-[X] Expand Alien Agitprop (-15 MC)
 
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Red Rationalist said:
Conventional armoured attacks are very unlikely to work if the enemy tanks aren't vulnerable from the front
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That's not super what Orange is about. We're honestly accepting that our tanks are probably going to die for minimal kills on the Sallie tanks, but that's not what the attack is for. The reason we'd attack the tanks is to tie them down in a fight for as long as possible, so they can't go and deal with our attacks on their infantry and IFVs. Because the tanks do still require the other segments to properly function, if we degrade their other capabilities enough suddenly they're way more vulnerable, including to stuff like nuclear artillery.
 
I don't see the point in focusing our efforts on destroying alien infantry and pushing back the front line. They will be reinforced soon by 6 infantry division and any frontline gains can be reversed by enemy armour crashing trough our defenses. We can close the quality gap to enemy infantry fairly quickly with a bit of production, the real issue are the alien tank forces.
 
Illusion of Eris said:
That's not super what Orange is about. We're honestly accepting that our tanks are probably going to die for minimal kills on the Sallie tanks, but that's not what the attack is for. The reason we'd attack the tanks is to tie them down in a fight for as long as possible, so they can't go and deal with our attacks on their infantry and IFVs. Because the tanks do still require the other segments to properly function, if we degrade their other capabilities enough suddenly they're way more vulnerable, including to stuff like nuclear artillery.
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Except those tanks aren't particularly reliant on infantry support. Plan orange attempts conventional operations on enemy infantry, something I don't regard as strategically important. There will always be cheap bodies to fill the front line, with 6 new divisions incoming. In the current battlefield, Sallie tanks support the lackluster infantry against as a crutch against our advantage, not the other way around.
 
Red Rationalist said:
I don't see the point in focusing our efforts on destroying alien infantry and pushing back the front line. They will be reinforced soon by 6 infantry division and any frontline gains can be reversed by enemy armour crashing trough our defenses. We can close the quality gap to enemy infantry fairly quickly with a bit of production, the real issue are the alien tank forces.
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The thing is that without their infantry and IFVs they are actually vulnerable. They aren't invulnerable on their own, but as part of a larger system. So by degrading the other parts of the system we can more easily damage, suddenly even the invulnerable tanks are vulnerable. Just tanks without an infantry to hold ground and spread out along the front are essentially useless for what they want to do, that is, colonialism.
 
Red Rationalist said:
So, I think Plan Orange is making a mistake. This is a fairly straightforward flanking move, with our rushed, first wave tanks going up against still nearly invincible alien tanks. Conventional armoured attacks are very unlikely to work if the enemy tanks aren't vulnerable from the front so I'm proposing we pick [] Plan Green instead, foucssing on overwhelming fire power against the tanks specifically to even the odds. The alien infantry without significant tank support can do little to effectily oppose us, so it's time to focus on the pillar of alien ground forces. Our first focus must be on degreading enemy armour, in order to launch any further operations, not relying on operational surprise for flanking.
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The point of Plan Orange isn't to fight the enemy armor. In fact, I don't think we have the capability to win against the enemy armor in a head-to-head confrontation. Even our best available guns need repeated side hits on their tanks or a lucky shot just land a kill. The point of Plan Orange is to distract the enemy armor by providing a force that only the enemy armor can kill effectively (IFVs being too vulnerable to the new Gas Guns), while the rest of our mobile forces launch attacks against the enemy infantry.

The 58th Armored Corps is essentially a giant Distraction Carnifex that's expected to be shattered by their engagement with the enemy armor. But while they're doing that, it leaves our other Corps free to operate against enemy tanks and overwhelm the infantry. Which prior engagements have shown our mobile forces can very much do if they're not being interrupted by enemy armor.

Red Rationalist said:
I don't see the point in focusing our efforts on destroying alien infantry and pushing back the front line. They will be reinforced soon by 6 infantry division and any frontline gains can be reversed by enemy armour crashing trough our defenses. We can close the quality gap to enemy infantry fairly quickly with a bit of production, the real issue are the alien tank forces.
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Using that argument, there is no point then in destroying the alien armor, because it will soon be reinforced by a full armored division.

They might be sending in 6 more infantry divisions, but there's a massive gap in infantry quality. The first wave of enemies has what seem to be two different tiers of infantry: The relatively well-trained regulars, and lower quality units that seem to be what are basically conscripts, which get poorer gear and get sent on missions where they're deemed expendable (like storming the bunkers with nukes in them.)

But the incoming infantry are basically a bunch of ex-miners with guns who got strikebroken. They're expected to be of an even lower tier of infantry than even the Conscripts. Right now, from what we can tell, the majority of the Conscripts are being used on garrison duty or were storming the bunkers, while the majority of professional regulars are on Duillech. Therefore, infantry casualties here on Duillech will be wiping out the best quality infantry troops the enemy has available. If those get wiped out, then the enemy has to rely on much lower tier infantry until additional reinforcements show up (and on the note of reinforcements, the more transport capacity they need to spend replenishing their infantry ranks to actually have the troops to hold ground and operate alongside the tanks, the less they're spending on more exotic units that can seriously mess us up.)

Additionally, the coming turns represent a significant jump in our infantry's ability to actually harm enemy vehicles, with the new ATGMs being rolled out and High Effect Grenades being done. If we can gain an edge in the infantry fight, we can attrit armor from the other way around.

Furthermore, our armor's capability at actually winning against the enemy armor even if we seriously commit is dubious. However, our mobile forces have shown repeatedly that they can overwhelm enemy infantry formations if they're not interfered with by the armor, and the enemy infantry's morale is fraying at the edge after a month of high-mobility happy time from our mobile forces. Keeping the enemy infantry numbers low even after reinforcements arrive will also help ensure that they struggle to keep enough raw manpower in the field to actually occupy all the territory they're taking, which will keep them vulnerable to wide-front offensives and flanking assaults.
 
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The problem with the reinforcement infantry is that it's a) of worse quality than what's already deployed going off the description and b) they aren't on planet yet. They need to get from orbit to dannan and with more anti orbital subs, more pulse laser batteries, and the corvettes coming online there's opportunity for them to take heavy casulties even before they set foot on the planet. Even then they aren't likely to land directly near the current Frontline, and will instead land on Curach island, where then either they or one of the better infantry squads will need to at least partially vtols over the straits, at which point they're opened up to our aa again.

So I think degrading the infantry, and even better their ifvs and their damn aa laser, will have a pretty sharp effect
 
Illusion of Eris said:
The thing is that without their infantry and IFVs they are actually vulnerable. They aren't invulnerable on their own, but as part of a larger system. So by degrading the other parts of the system we can more easily damage, suddenly even the invulnerable tanks are vulnerable.
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I'm assuming the enemy tank division has in-built IFV support, with the incoming divisions having a lot of IFVs as well. Any gain in terms of coverage by destroying enemy IFV is temporary, lasting not enough to make any gains from that. While enemy armour that is destroyed right now does represent a permanent weakening of the enemy offense, since tanks are harder to replace than IFVs.
Chimeraguard said:
The 58th Armored Corps is essentially a giant Distraction Carnifex that's expected to be shattered by their engagement with the enemy armor. But while they're doing that, it leaves our other Corps free to operate against enemy tanks and overwhelm the infantry. Which prior engagements have shown our mobile forces can very much do if they're not being interrupted by enemy armor.
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Right, and it's a good idea to degrade our heavy armour as a distraction when the enemy has a second armoured division on the way? For the sake of killing IFVs?
Chimeraguard said:
Additionally, the coming turns represent a significant jump in our infantry's ability to actually harm enemy vehicles, with the new ATGMs being rolled out and High Effect Grenades being done. If we can gain an edge in the infantry fight, we can attrit armor from the other way around.

Furthermore, our armor's capability at actually winning against the enemy armor even if we seriously commit is dubious. However, our mobile forces have shown repeatedly that they can overwhelm enemy infantry formations if they're not interfered with by the armor. Which makes Plan Orange a plan with a much better chance of success than Plan Green.
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An ATGM or a blinding grenade isn't going to kill enemy tank formation in open terrain. Those are useful for urban operations and for having something to fend off a tank, but nowhere capable of killing tanks in any conventional battlefield. And there has been no indication that massed artillery strikes against enemy armour would be ineffective. We know their capabilities quite accurately, we have the necessary artillery and a needed moment of weakness. We can destroy the armour during this critical moment, and we should focus our effort on that. There will be plenty of opportunities to break enemy infantry.
 
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