Yes, but with negative modifiers you can end with 0, even if it might not give you worse result than Nat1, depends of the GM, while no matter how high your modifiers are you cannot get better result than Nat20. And 10 is half of 20, so people took it as the average roll. At least that's the reason I've seen during my history of playing and play testing TTRPGs. For more, I'd recommend asking someone whose more familiar with the history and development of d20 systems.
Yes, but with negative modifiers you can end with 0, even if it might not give you worse result than Nat1, depends of the GM, while no matter how high your modifiers are you cannot get better result than Nat20.
"With negative modifiers you can end with 0, but it might not give you a worse result than a natural 1."
Yeah, well with positive modifiers you can end with a 21, and it might not give you a better result than a natural 20- or then again, it might; it depends on the system.
There's no reason to consider '0' a more realistic or relevant result on a d20 die roll than '21' is.
And 10 is half of 20, so people took it as the average roll. At least that's the reason I've seen during my history of playing and play testing TTRPGs. For more, I'd recommend asking someone whose more familiar with the history and development of d20 systems.
OK, but I'm talking basic numeracy, here, now. Neither of us is too stupid to add up a bunch of numbers and divide by 20.
There's a good reason why, mechanically if it matters, someone might "take 10" (as 3rd edition D&D does) as an 'average' (that is to say, mean or median) die roll. Because the actual mean and median are 10.5, and dice systems aren't set up to handle decimals, so the number has to be rounded up or down and it might as well be down.
But that does not translate into it making sense to say that in general overall, 10 is an 'average' roll while 11 is a 'good' roll.
By analogy, if you roll 6d6 and get 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, and 3, that was a bad roll. A three is not the 'average' outcome for a d6 die roll. You should expect a better toll than that (19 or higher as a total) 72% of the time.
The average result of rolling 6d6 is 21, something like 3, 4, 3, 4, 3, 4.
"With negative modifiers you can end with 0, but it might not give you a worse result than a natural 1."
Yeah, well with positive modifiers you can end with a 21, and it might not give you a better result than a natural 20- or then again, it might; it depends on the system.
There's no reason to consider '0' a more realistic or relevant result on a d20 die roll than '21' is.
OK, but I'm talking basic numeracy, here, now. Neither of us is too stupid to add up a bunch of numbers and divide by 20.
There's a good reason why, mechanically if it matters, someone might "take 10" (as 3rd edition D&D does) as an 'average' (that is to say, mean or median) die roll. Because the actual mean and median are 10.5, and dice systems aren't set up to handle decimals, so the number has to be rounded up or down and it might as well be down.
But that does not translate into it making sense to say that in general overall, 10 is an 'average' roll while 11 is a 'good' roll.
By analogy, if you roll 6d6 and get 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, and 3, that was a bad roll. A three is not the 'average' outcome for a d6 die roll. You should expect a better toll than that (19 or higher as a total) 72% of the time.
The average result of rolling 6d6 is 21, something like 3, 4, 3, 4, 3, 4.
Yes, and? The numeracy and such doesn't really matter when it comes to rule systems and their practical use, everyone knows that 10 is not an average of d20 (or think that you can roll 0 or 21 on it), but people still use it as such for simplicity's sake. Whether or nor you consider '11' to be average, above average or good roll depends of your own preferences and experiences. For example, if you asked people what is the average roll of a d6, most would say '3' and treat it as such.
You're making way too big of a deal over the fact that you didn't like I called a '9' on a d20 a bad roll.
Yes, and? The numeracy and such doesn't really matter when it comes to rule systems and their practical use, everyone knows that 10 is not an average of d20 (or think that you can roll 0 or 21 on it), but people still use it as such for simplicity's sake. Whether or nor you consider '11' to be average, above average or good roll depends of your own preferences and experiences. For example, if you asked people what is the average roll of a d6, most would say '3' and treat it as such.
You're making way too big of a deal over the fact that you didn't like I called a '9' on a d20 a bad roll.
I never said everyone, but I am sorry if I insulted you, that was not my intent. We simply looked at this from very different angles and let it get slightly out of hand.
Simon, my dude, I find you incredibly observant most of the time, but every once in a while, you jump to pretty severe conclusions which really aren't warranted. I dunno if it's real-life stress leaking into the conversation, or if it's just that you're used to aggression in extended internet debates, or what, but it's definitely a pattern I've noticed. Speaking for myself, I don't usually have any ill-will when I engage in this kind of debate, and I doubt @Icipall does either. We're all friends here, my guy. We're not necessarily out to "win" or "prove ourselves right".
Honestly, though, I'm more amused by most of your discussion/debate than anything else. I walk back in, and I see you two debating the criteria for rating rolls, and I'm just like "man, I love these nerds, I picked the right group to game with". I also think there's merits to both the systems you guys are using, and neither is necessarily the "right" one. Personally, I tend to rate rolls based on the actual results. A high or mediocre roll can still be a "bad roll" if the DC was higher than that. Whereas a low roll can work just fine when you have +9 to the roll. As I can attest, based on my last D&D game. On both counts.
Simon, my dude, I find you incredibly observant most of the time, but every once in a while, you jump to pretty severe conclusions which really aren't warranted. I dunno if it's real-life stress leaking into the conversation, or if it's just that you're used to aggression in extended internet debates, or what, but it's definitely a pattern I've noticed. Speaking for myself, I don't usually have any ill-will when I engage in this kind of debate, and I doubt @Icipall does either. We're all friends here, my guy. We're not necessarily out to "win" or "prove ourselves right".
Okay, so I gather we desperately need faster fire EML. It's a good weapon but takes way too long to fire.
That's something we must keep in mind for research turns.
Okay, so I gather we desperately need faster fire EML. It's a good weapon but takes way too long to fire.
That's something we must keep in mind for research turns.
The big issues for the EML's rate of fire are likely to be cooling and power supplies.
We can probably improve the former issue by using alien alloy more, which acts as both a superconductor and, paradoxically, a pretty damn good heat sink.
We can probably improve the latter issue with Toroidal Energy Storage, which may enable us to store power for multiple EML shots in rapid succession.
Eh, don't worry about it. We all have our moments. What's an overreaction or two between friends? And you didn't need to say that last part. I was fairly confident that would be the case.
Okay, so I gather we desperately need faster fire EML. It's a good weapon but takes way too long to fire.
That's something we must keep in mind for research turns.
Honestly, if I thought it was viable, I'd be suggesting the Chandelier approach. Lower launch speeds, and thus lower energy expenditrues, could still be viable if the projectiles themselves can boost their velocity and maneuver. But I think that would likely be too bulky for use on aircraft. For AA or other ground-based platforms, though...well, it's got possibilities.
The big issues for the EML's rate of fire are likely to be cooling and power supplies.
We can probably improve the former issue by using alien alloy more, which acts as both a superconductor and, paradoxically, a pretty damn good heat sink.
We can probably improve the latter issue with Toroidal Energy Storage, which may enable us to store power for multiple EML shots in rapid succession.
Good observation on the dual-properties of Alien Alloy. The high rate of heat dissipation would also mean you can run more electricity through the magnet if needed, which is often limited by Joule heating. I mean, at a certain point, you might run into other problems, as with MHD drives, where too much electricity running through the magnet means you can accidentally conduct electrolysis and potentially produce explosive (or toxic, with seawater) gases from the water. Not sure what the possible issues in air would be...ozone-producing voltages, perhaps?
Eh, don't worry about it. We all have our moments. What's an overreaction or two between friends? And you didn't need to say that last part. I was fairly confident that would be the case.
The aliens have an equipment advantage so ridiculous that it's like we're a tribe of mostly-spearmen with a handful of muskets fighting a Victorian era colonial expedition armed with breech-loading rifles and Maxim guns.
And against this armada of Death, well be only sending you, the Xcom... With budget/resources small enough you better start getting external source of resources like right now.
And against this armada of Death, well be only sending you, the Xcom... With budget/resources small enough you better start getting external source of resources like right now.
Our budget is "yes". Our logistical limitations are about how many productions lines we have access to, not whether or not we have the cash, or even raw materials. We've already built some lines of our own, but we've only been operating for like 2 months.
Our budget is "yes". Our logistical limitations are about how many productions lines we have access to, not whether or not we have the cash, or even raw materials. We've already built some lines of our own, but we've only been operating for like 2 months.
Count
<<Trigger, what the hell are you doing? Pull back!>>
Long Caster clenched his jaw. The aliens had unleashed their own superweapon; if the difference between alien superweapons and human superweapons was anything like the difference between the alien and human fighters... no, he couldn't think like that. He had to look at what the instruments were telling him.
Waltz Two
<<Are you crazy?!>>
But more than that...if there was anyone that could survive, it'd be Trigger. If anyone could do anything to that alien battleship, it would be Trigger.
Count
<<Goddamnit, Trigger...>>
But. There was more than just the alien battleship. There were also about a dozen alien fighters still airborne, Flowing Guard Unbreakable, and a fast moving contact from the alien battleship. The energy levels had crashed after that attack, but as he kept watching the numbers climbed straight back up. The problem was...who could he send in as backup?
His eye fell on Pixy.
Long Caster <<...Alright. Trigger, I'll trust you. Pixy, back him up. Everyone else, pull back.>>
Jaeger
<<...understood.>>
Count
<<What?! Long Caster, why?>>
Long Caster
<<Goddamnit, Count, not now! Just...pull back. Have faith in Trigger.>>
Count
<<...I understand.>>
FCU National Guard
<<Reinforcements! We need rein->>
Long Caster's fists balled up. Damn his helplessness.
FCU HQ
<<...the second line has fallen, and XCOM will not be available to provide air support. Blow the bridges.>>
FCU HQ
<<But sir, there are civilians on the other side!>>
FCU HQ
<<I know. Do it.>>
Pixy scowled. Civilians, sacrificed again, because it would be convenient if the soldiers survived. Oh, he understood their thought process - that just made him resent it all the more. For now, he could focus on trying to eliminate the threat to those civilians: the aliens. There would come a reckoning, later. There was always a reckoning.
"Alright," Pixy said. "We're going to go up against all of that, huh?" He watched Trigger as he subconsciously synchronized his Nosferatu right behind Trigger's Nosferatu in the wingman position. He was trying to gauge how to fly with Trigger as an element. What kind of pilot was Trigger?
Trigger's answer, the moment Pixy formed up, was to accelerate at full burn. Flowing Guard Unbreakable was beneath them - they had literally dived for the deck the moment the alien battleship had launched those spheres, and the other alien fighters were far away.
Well. With one exception, the singular fighter that Pixy had titled "Nova". Bastard must've switched fighters to get back to the battlefield, but that was fine. He was going to get even for Bard 2, even if the little shit hadn't been nearly as funny as he thought.
Trigger suddenly broke right - to get on Nova 1's tail, Pixy understood, breaking left. Nova 1 shot into the gap, and Pixy pulled his plane around - how was Trigger already on the alien's tail - and the alien craft shuddered with the impact of missile hits, even as it immediately changed directions and rocketed away, too fast for Pixy to get a lock-on.
Long Caster
<<Trigger, Pixy, the alien superweapon is charged again!>>
Instinctively, Pixy slammed on the stick and accelerated on the throttle. His reflexes kicked in not a moment too soon; a massive sphere of purplish unreality consumed the air where the two of them had just been. Nova 1 flew away, but Pixy had no time to consider that with the two squadrons of alien fighters vectoring in. Weaving between the fire was tricky but ultimately not difficult - sticking on Trigger's tail was almost more difficult, as he accelerated forward, almost oblivious to anything except the giant airborne fortress, as he recklessly flew in endlessly shifting patterns to throw off alien plasma fire. Green bolts lit up the canopy, but all of the shots missed - even as the pair continued to fly forwards.
Long Caster
<<Alright, we've figured out the superweapon's patterns! The alien weapon won't fire if you're within two thousand feet of aliens! Stay close to them if you want to avoid superweapon fire!>>
Pixy smiled. Finally, some good news.
Count scowled. Passed up, again and again. Pixy wasn't even that much better than him, but Long Caster instinctively trusted Pixy over Count. Dammit, he could keep up with Trigger, he just needed the chance.
Count
<<Alright, then I'm going in! We can't leave everything to those two!>>
Lanza
<<Goddamnit, Count, when will you ever learn?!>>
Huxian
<<No...Count's right. I'm going in.>>
Long Caster
<<Then let's make it official: Razgriz, Cyclops, and Strider Squadron, resume close air support. Mobius One, assume command of Strider Squadron, and everyone else, continue to withdraw.>>
And again, Count is passed up. Again and again.
Count grit his teeth.
Pixy followed Trigger down. Not far enough to be dodging apartment buildings like Trigger was, but close enough that he could almost see the power lines stringing the suburbs. Plasma fire bracketed them from above and below, but this level of firepower wasn't anything that could actually challenge Pixy, let alone Trigger. The alien battleship continued its descent above them, as Pixy and Trigger weaved through the slackening fire. Pursuing alien fighters hesitated to open fire; neither Nova nor Flowing Guard Unbreakable fancied their chances following Trigger into the suburban maze, and Pixyu wasn't above diving down into a street or two.
FCU National Guard
<<What the...they've stopped firing!>>
But eventually, the two of them ran out of alien ground forces to fly over. The fighters tailing the two suddenly scattered, and Pixy got ready to break away himself. The alien superweapon attack was coming.
Long Caster
<<Warning! Trigger, Pixy, we've got a huge power spike!>>
Trigger broke right. Pixy broke left. The first sphere, sent straight down the middle, missed them both. Pixy sighed in relief - and then felt the gash in reality right over his wingtip tear away at his mind, held together only by discipline and instinct. Pixy didn't know where the final shots went - he couldn't, not when his grip on reality extended only to the flaps of his plane.
Long Caster
<<Pixy! Come in!>>
"Alive," he sing-songed, as he pulled his plane back. "That old superweapon isn't going to be able to stop me," he said, pulling back in behind Trigger. Trigger slammed forward on the accelerator, and Pixy wasn't going to be left behind. The alien fighters collapsing back in wouldn't be able to catch them before the next superweapon attack, Pixy was sure. They'd stay away, or harass the ground forces some more.
The two were on a dead sprint to the battleship now. Weapons were still well out of range, but if they could just close the distance, then they'd be able to bring the full power of the ADMM to bear. Around him, the alien fighters flew west, almost parallel to their flight path; behind him new contacts sprung up, probably the alien transports. The aliens were leaving?
Not something he could be concerned about, as the Trigger's plane began to develop a sheen around it.
Long Caster
<<Alien superweapon fire in 5...4...3...>>
Pixy dove down, giving him a perfect view of Trigger flying straight at the alien battleship. He could've sworn he saw a purplish orange glow around the cockpit - and then the alien superweapon fired. Four streams of purple came to swat Trigger out of the sky, exploding into giant orbs that swallowed Trigger's aircraft.
Damn, PIxy scowled.
Pixy
<<Trigger's down.>>
Count
<<That's impossible ->>
An orange lance angrily spit back at the alien battleship.
Out of the other end, a black arrowhead flew out, surrounded in a sheen of fading pinkish-purple. Three strike marks adorned the tail, and encompassed an impression that Pixy could feel more than see. The engines of the Nosferatu flared brightly, surpassing the afterburners to push forward alone against the whole alien battleship. Nova rocketed in from behind and was summarily ignored in Trigger's mad movements; one instant Nova was behind him, and in the next Trigger was behind Nova after a hard break to the left, at a speed Pixy's eyes refused to believe was the same aircraft.
Missiles contemptuously swatted Nova aside, an order to get out of Trigger's way so that he could focus on the real target.
The alien battleship.
Alien fighters streaked around the sides, terrified of engaging the beast of three; Nova fled in much the same direction, and Pixy barely managed to overtax his engine enough to pull up behind Trigger. Trigger didn't even seem to register the movement. On his left, the five man formation of Flowing Guard Unbreakable pulled up, and then chose to speed ahead of the two of them. Ahead of them, the alien battleship began glowing ominously.
Long Caster
<<Trigger, Pixy, we're reading another spike of energy! Break! Break!>>
Pixy broke immediately. Trigger flew straight for another instant, before turning down the throttle and turning back.
Behind him, a green shield the size of a city sprang into existence around the alien battleship, and began to climb away.
The aliens were leaving.
In their wake, Expo City burned.
There was nothing any of them could do about it.
Debriefing should be done within a day or three; got midterms tomorrow, so I wanted to finish this one up and put it out.
All I know is, the battleship flew away, and we're still here. Possession of the field doesn't constitute victory, necessarily, but at least we did something other than let them bludgeon the city to death with no response.
EDIT:
Also, I say the next superplane goes to Count, so he can be the one who follows Trigger in next time. Because my choice wasn't so much about Count's merits versus Pixy, it was about him being otherwise unattached... and about the plane.
I figure a CFA-44 can dodge giant psychospatial rift blasts better than an F-22.
Possession of the field doesn't constitute victory, necessarily, but at least we did something other than let them bludgeon the city to death with no response.
While obviously having a city get razed is bad, humanity does have a lot of them, so it's hardly a decisive strategic setback. The simple matter of fact that we fought them blow for blow should hopefully serve to blunt the PR damage of this as well.
While obviously having a city get razed is bad, humanity does have a lot of them, so it's hardly a decisive strategic setback. The simple matter of fact that we fought them blow for blow should hopefully serve to blunt the PR damage of this as well.
Well, I'm partly asking, "how razed IS this city?" Some of the superweapon shots may have bitten some horribly big circles out of the ground, and the alien ground troops did a lot of damage, but we DID buy several minutes of evacuation time and are still present to mop up any alien ground troops, plus the aliens weren't actually ON the ground for more than like... 10-15 minutes?
I suspect that at least one of the other targeted cities is going to come out looking a lot worse than we do.
There's a bunch of corpses in the area, although the amount of air support, fires, and building collapses as well as the fact that a bunch of those fires are still burning because of the evacuation means that you don't know how many corpses you're going to pick up.
As for live forces...well. The aliens managed to mostly exit after ground forces were unable and unwilling to try to attempt a river crossing (remember, they blew up the bridges), and managed to retreat in good order. As best you can tell, most of the troop transports made it back inside the shield bubble; no plasma fire has come up at your fighters since.
