Accursed Citrine - Yet another Dark Soul/Madoka Magica Crossover
- Thread starter AClassyBunny
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Went back and picked some relevant quotes from the chapter.
These are part of why I think we shouldn't write off exploring the dark more, especially if we find a way to do it safely.
Even though the episode Kirika has starts with her repeating Oriko, the actual episode is much more to do with accidentally transforming partially into a witch. It is odd, though. I don't remember at what point Kirika gets abducted from the timeline in this quest (really need to do that reread) but something interesting about Oriko Magica is that when Kirika does turn into a witch (which she does deliberately for...reasons) she was still somewhat in control of herself because of her wish tying her to Oriko.
And this description, specifically "Your sides hurt like they're being torn. Like something is forcing its way out. Your stomach burns with a stretching agony." sounds suspiciously like Doppeling now that I've reread it.
Actually. Now that I've looked at Kirika's Doppel I'm a lot more certain about that being a possibility. I might need to consult with some lore nerds more into MagiReco specifically than me, but from what I know, a Witch emerges from your soul gem directly. A Doppel emerges from your body (
I'd include a picture of Kirika's Doppel, which emerges from her stomach, but I have no idea how to send images on this website lol. It's pretty easy to find though.
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Based on the intro narration, it's sometime between Kirika witching out and Homura resetting the timeline over Madoka being killed as Oriko's last act from Kirika's broken and fading perspective of the final confrontation.
Thanks for finding that for me! Definitely shows that we can trust that whatever happened this chapter was very close to the sensation of witching out, since Kirika would know, having done so once before. Very interesting that she came back from being a witch sometime between being abducted and waking up here as well.
Something interesting about doppeling is that when you first do it you have little to no control over your doppel. It's only when you practice (?) with it/figure it out that you maintain control while doppeled. I could definitely see it being that using the Dark Bolt triggered Kirika's doppel, which rampaged like a witch might and, having never doppeled in this timeline, Kirika doesn't know enough to know the difference between that and witching out. The sensation is probably similar, given its a partial transformation. We really need to know what it looked like from an outside perspective honestly.
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Here's a YouTube video of the animation in the game.
View: https://youtu.be/CAIU-o1HMRA?si=aMeqye4B4nSeDhsc
That looks so dumb, and terrible for her spine (not that that really matters for a magical girl).
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Holy crap, I woke up to a big discussion.
Obviously, there's also my own personal interpretations of things, which I know stray from the wider interpretations in a few areas, although I can't name anything specific right now and you'd probably have to skim through both my quests to have a chance of piecing together my incoherent views on things.
I will add that I see her still being in control of her witch coming partly from her willingly embracing it, instead of just spiralling into it like most MGs. Of course, her wish helped, and the nature of her obsession meant she still helped Oriko (I believe something similar happened in Kazumi, although it's been a while.)
Regarding Doppels, while I like their concept in theory, I'm not entirely sure about how I feel about them. I'm not particularly fond of Magia Record, and a lot of Doppels look kind of silly in my opinion. That said, these discussions have given a good case for Kirika developing a Doppel as a possibility, so I wouldn't be entirely against it if you decide to pursue that idea.
I'm not super familiar with their in-universe mechanics though, so I'd have to rewatch the anime (and actually finish it this time), since I don't believe the manga is fully translated and I won't/can't play the game. That, or just make my own shit up for them, lmao.
Also, I'd probably have the Doppel be more unstable and difficult to control, like (I think) when they're not intentionally summoned. I found this video of Iroha's Doppel, and I know the masked version here is when the witch aspect has taken more direct control. I'd probably have it come with the risk of also slipping into a full witch transformation if it gets out of hand.
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z4DgoQkXby8
Regarding what MGs can do, I typically go with everything that's in what I've personally read/watched. So, main series, Wraith Arc+Rebellion, Kazumi Magia, Oriko Magica, even a few of the more serious stuff from Homura's Revenge and Homura Tamura. Additionally, I take stuff from the PSP game via the wiki if it provides extra context or info on something. Mitakihara Anit-Materials too, although that's mainly for character stuff for Mami and Homura, neither of which are technically in this quest.
Obviously, there's also my own personal interpretations of things, which I know stray from the wider interpretations in a few areas, although I can't name anything specific right now and you'd probably have to skim through both my quests to have a chance of piecing together my incoherent views on things.
I can't remember what the specific wording was of the wish was in my copies of Extra Story/Sadness Prayer, but I go by it being something along the lines of to 'keep changing to be suitable for Oriko.' This has so far manifested as Kirika becoming more self-thinking, since it'd be pretty hard to find Oriko without being able to act independently. Circumstances can change and obsession is a bottomless abyss, however, although any changes would likely be passed off as natural development from events (since that's also how her changes in the manga were done.)
It doesn't seem like I threadmarked it, but I made a post ages ago going over how the different magics work for Kirika here. For Dark stuff, it will cause rapid corruption of her soul gem (as seen) but also get MAJOR power boosts (again, as seen.)
Already answered here, but to expand: Kirika was taken at the exact final moment before she died. So yes, she does remember becoming and being a witch, along with all the mental fuckery that would have.
I will add that I see her still being in control of her witch coming partly from her willingly embracing it, instead of just spiralling into it like most MGs. Of course, her wish helped, and the nature of her obsession meant she still helped Oriko (I believe something similar happened in Kazumi, although it's been a while.)
I'll admit, this is somewhat of a mistake on my part. I'd completely forgotten witch births don't directly affect the body, so both times this description has been used has been to imply she's on the verge of becoming a witch.
Regarding Doppels, while I like their concept in theory, I'm not entirely sure about how I feel about them. I'm not particularly fond of Magia Record, and a lot of Doppels look kind of silly in my opinion. That said, these discussions have given a good case for Kirika developing a Doppel as a possibility, so I wouldn't be entirely against it if you decide to pursue that idea.
I'm not super familiar with their in-universe mechanics though, so I'd have to rewatch the anime (and actually finish it this time), since I don't believe the manga is fully translated and I won't/can't play the game. That, or just make my own shit up for them, lmao.
That looks very silly. If it does go the Doppel route, I'll 100% be changing the design. Latria seems to have been intended as unsettlingly alluring in design, so I'd probably lean a bit more on that.
Also, I'd probably have the Doppel be more unstable and difficult to control, like (I think) when they're not intentionally summoned. I found this video of Iroha's Doppel, and I know the masked version here is when the witch aspect has taken more direct control. I'd probably have it come with the risk of also slipping into a full witch transformation if it gets out of hand.
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z4DgoQkXby8
Makes sense to me.
Ahhhh, yeah. That's a good way to do it.
Thats pretty close to my interpretation as well. I lean more into the magic side just because she had so much of it going for her but willingness definitely played a part.
I feel a little silly for jumping the gun to doppel now lol. It's a pretty easy mistake to make, though, cause we only see a handful of witch-outs on-screen. I didn't even catch it the first read of the chapter, only when I was looking back through.
Definitely in favor of make your own shit up if you want to. If anything doesn't match "how doppeling is supposed to work" you can just explain it as Kirika not knowing how to actually doppel so hers is different. Plus she'd be learning it off of Dark Souls mechanics which I imagine would lead to an at least somewhat different expression of the ability than the mgs in MagiReco got to anyway.
Completely in favor of that lol. Today was my first time seeing it too, since I didn't play the game.
That seems correct, probably. At the very least I can't think of anything that directly contradicts it, but I'm more of a general Madoka nerd than a MagiReco one, I just have friends who got super into it.
Ah, after asking them about it, apparently you just effectively witch out if it happens unintentionally, but it's temporary. The Iroha video is a good example, yeah.
On the other hand, they also said Homura was still in control when she first did it unintentionally so as with many things, canon contradicts itself a little bit.
Yeah, that all makes sense. Kirika doesn't have the luxury of someone else handling the actual magic know-how for doppeling like...pretty much every character except Touka and maybe Ui does?
Because of Doppeling being the placeholder system the Wings of the Magius used while they researched a better one, it has a few flaws even in canon. One of these is "Doppel Syndrome" where you get stuck in your Doppel and it controls you, effectively making you a witch without a Grief Seed. (It's a little more nuanced than that and presumably if someone clears your grief you'd revert to an mg since you don't have a grief seed, but basically yeah, full-on witch-out.)
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I was gonna edit this in so I wasn't double-posting, but that post was already long so I'm just gonna put the follow-up here.
Seems to be that if you Doppel unintentionally it's usually just a temporary witch out (basically. Still looks ~mostly the same as regular doppeling but the witch is in control.), but if you Doppel unintentionally (I think it matters whether you hit your cap vs chose to doppel) too many times it starts lowering your grief cap* (Maybe? We're approaching the limits of my knowledge and my friends went to bed.) so it takes less grief to unintentionally doppel. So its not that you fully witch out with Doppel Syndrome, it's that it becomes more and more difficult not to be Doppeled all the time...I guess?
*not an official term, I made that up to help myself understand lol
*not an official term, I made that up to help myself understand lol
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