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A true hero... in training (Pokemon Gym Leader's apprentice quest)

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[X] Stay and fight the Gligar
-[X] Maelstrom
-[X] Fang
-[X] Constantly roulette attacks when it's in range. Only one should ever be attacking at a time.
--[X] Space the two apart so that it can only ever target one, but not so far apart that they can't rush in once it picks a target
---[X] Wait and only attack once it approaches. Make it come to us
----[X] Dodge whenever possible, counter whenever possible.
 
[X] Stay and fight the Gligar
-[X] Maelstrom alone.
--[X] Bounce to get some height and then Harden at the apex and Aqua Jet to do a gravity-boosted impact. Make heavy use of Aqua Jet to avoid any counterattacks.
 
[X] Stay and fight the Gligar
-[X] Maelstrom, Bounce, Harden while in the air, then Aqua Jet divebomb.
 
TempestK said:
No, because the difference in strength between Ares and Rosalia is minimal. On top of that, Ares' best attack against her is a ranged one, which negates most of her abilities and traits. On top of that, if we 2v1 the Gligar we're going to get minimal combat training for Maelstrom. At worst we hold Fang in reserve as needed and allow Maelstrom to really strut his stuff against a mon he has some advantages against. If we use the 2v1 plan then we're actually getting minimal gains of any sort for either of our mon.
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These are good arguments, but they rely on the assumption that all the cards are on the table. I might be paranoid, but I think that focusing on optimizing Maelstrom's training is a dangerously wrong mindset here. These opponents aren't friendly neighbourhood trainers, they are criminals who are low enough to kidnap pokemon and erase memories. Who knows what kind of things they have up in their sleeves if they get time to prepare them. The possibility of the woman getting a second pokemon out is obvious, but there might be others, from weapons to all kinds of cartoonish gagdets.

My point is, we shouldn't underestimate them. Treat this situation seriously, and use all that we can from the get go. As the saying goes, "A Lion uses its full strength, even when hunting a Rabbit".
 
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Paroni said:
My point is, we shouldn't underestimate them. Treat this situation seriously, and use all that we can from the get go. As the saying goes, "A Lion uses its full strength, even when hunting a Rabbit".
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We'd also be holding Fang in reserve for if they do have something up their sleeves.
 
[X] Stay and fight the Gligar
-[X] Maelstrom
-[X] Fang
-[X] Constantly roulette attacks when it's in range. Only one should ever be attacking at a time.
--[X] Space the two apart so that it can only ever target one, but not so far apart that they can't rush in once it picks a target
---[X] Wait and only attack once it approaches. Make it come to us
----[X] Dodge whenever possible, counter whenever possible.
-----[X] "You will never touch any of my partners as long as I live!" Haru mad.

Remember folks, we take out Gligar, we can make a three on one. Better than trying to show off Malestorm and try to stroke our own ego. Speed is not everything.
 
Paroni said:
These are good arguments, but they rely on the assumption that all the cards are on the table. I might be paranoid, but I think that focusing on optimizing Maelstrom's training is a dangerously wrong mindset here. These opponents aren't friendly neighbourhood trainers, they are criminals who are low enough to kidnap pokemon and erase memories. Who knows what kind of things they have up in their sleeves if they get time to prepare them. The possibility of the woman getting a second pokemon out is obvious, but there might be others, from weapons to all kinds of cartoonish gagdets.

My point is, we shouldn't underestimate them. Treat this situation seriously, and use all that we can from the get go. As the saying goes, "A Lion uses its full strength, even when hunting a Rabbit".
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Personally, I changed my vote because of one thing.

My initial plan was a wait and see approach to allow Fang to reach the Gligar. Mael can easily use Aqua Jet or Bounce to get there, but Fang doesn't have that. To avoid overextending and maximize Fang's utility, the wait and see approach was a requirement.

But with Bulldozer and the massive speed advantage Gligar has over Fang, and the slight speed advantage it has over Mael, Fang goes from possible asset to probable liability.

In this situation, the best solution is to remove the liability (Fang), and maximize what we have left (Mael).
 
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WildCardFool said:
But with Bulldozer and the massive speed advantage Gligar has over Fang, and the slight speed advantage it has over Mael, Fang goes from possible asset to probably liability.

In this situation, the best solution is to remove the liability (Fang), and maximize what we have left (Mael).
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Pretty much. Maelstrom actually has the advantage here. Fang is electric fighting STAB ground. Fang is melee based when his opponent is a flying pokemon.

He's a terrible matchup
 
DarkKing98 said:
Remember folks, we take out Gligar, we can make a three on one. Better than trying to show off Malestorm and try to stroke our own ego. Speed is not everything.
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This isn't about ego-stroking, it's about keeping Fang in reserve and putting Maelstrom out against a mon that he can actually outmatch the mobility of and take a proactive stance instead of being forced on the defensive. Plus with two mon out at once we're not going to be able to really chain together attacks, meaning Maelstrom would be at a serious disadvantage similar to Fang.
 
WildCardFool said:
But with Bulldozer and the massive speed advantage Gligar has over Fang, and the slight speed advantage it has over Mael, Fang goes from possible asset to probably liability.

In this situation, the best solution is to remove the liability (Fang), and maximize what we have left (Mael).
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Veekie held this same opinion, that somehow Maelstrom would be stronger without Fang. I don't see it. Even if the only thing that Fang contributes to the fight is soaking up one attack from the Glicar, it helps Maelstrom. Fang isn't so frail as to get permanently harmed from a single Bulldoze from a similar level Glicar.

I guess that Fang and Maelstrom could be so comedically uncoordinated that they might end up in each others way like in a movie, but that's not a real thing with 3 equalish level combatants, even if Fang wasn't especially specialized in teamwork.

Fang also wouldn't prevent Haru from focusing on guiding Maelstrom. Fang is good at figuring out his own strategies, that's his strength.

In short, Fang isn't a negative influence in this combat, and keeping him out of it is hindering us. We might do it on purpose as TempestK wants to, but we we shouldn't think it's somehow helping us.

Edit: Ok I get the reserve argument. That does have a point. Probably still better to deploy Fang somewhere, he can react on the fly if needed. Edit^2: Maybe Fang should go help the Torchic? Sure Fire Fang eats a poison thorn, but that exchange is in our favor. And if the Woman gets out another mon, Fang is ready immediately.
 
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Trait 3: Super Speed (Twice as fast as a normal pokemon of his species.)

what the frigg. I cant wrap my head around a fast slowpoke... So a normalpoke?
 
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Paroni said:
Veekie held this same opinion, that somehow Maelstrom would be stronger without Fang. I don't see it. Even is the only thing that Fang contributes to the fight is soaking up one attack from the Glicar, it helps Maelstrom. Fang isn't so frail as to get permanently harmed from a single Bulldoze from a similar level Glicar.

I guess that Fang and Maelstrom could be so comedically uncoordinated that they might end up in each others way like in a movie, but that's not a real thing with 3 equalish level combatants, even if Fang wasn't especially specialized in teamwork.

Fang also wouldn't prevent Haru from focusing on guiding Maelstrom. Fang is good at figuring out his own strategies, that's his strength.

In short, Fang isn't a negative influence in this combat, and keeping him out of it is hindering us. We might do it on purpose as TempestK wants to, but we we shouldn't think its somehow helping us.

Edit: Ok I get the reserve argument. That does have a point. Probably still better to deploy Fang somewhere, he can react on the fly if needed. Edit^2: Maybe Fang should go help the Torchic? Sure Fire Fang eats a poison thorn, but that exchange is in our favor. And if the Woman gets out another mon, Fang is ready immediately.
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Well the thing I think you didn't take into account is move combos. We can issue up to 2 different commands. If we have one pokemon, we can combine two moves into one combo. We've done this before.

The problem is, we can't do that if we have to command two pokemon. And Lux explicitly stated in the passage that Fang as of now is not in fact good enough to really do his own strategies. That's something we still need to work on. As of right now I'd say he could do his own thing, yes, but it wouldn't be that great of a strategy, and it'd probably get him taken out rather quickly.

So while Fang can take one Bulldozer, he will certainly not take another. And Bulldozer lowers speed on hit. That makes him a sitting duck after one hit, which really isn't something we want to consider. Take into account Gligar's increased mobility and Fang being grounded. Fang has to rely on speed to counter and hopefully not get hurt (or just counter at all). So if that goes down, he does in fact become, at the very least, less of an asset.
 
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WildCardFool said:
Well the thing I think you didn't take into account is move combos. We can issue up to 2 different commands. If we have one pokemon, we can combine two moves into one combo. We've done this before.

The problem is, we can't do that if we have to command two pokemon. And Lux explicitly stated in the passage that Fang as of now is not in fact good enough to really do his own strategies. That's something we still need to work on. As of right now I'd say he could do his own thing, yes, but it wouldn't be that great of a strategy, and it'd probably get him taken out rather quickly.

So while Fang can take one Bulldozer, he will certainly not take another. And Bulldozer lowers speed on hit. That makes him a sitting duck after one hit, which really isn't something we want to consider. Take into account Gligar's increased mobility and Fang being grounded. Fang has to rely on speed to counter and hopefully not get hurt (or just counter at all). So if that goes down, he does in fact become, at the very least, less of an asset.
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It is true that I had neglected to note that he isn't that smart by himself yet. Still, I don't think that Fang would be a negative influence (liability) in that fight even by himself, unlike what you and Veekie originally stated. At the very least he would take Glicar's attention off from Maelstrom, even if that would not be for very long.

It does however crash the idea of letting Fang fight the Roselia. I don't think we can afford to keep an eye on both of the fights, and Fang could get into a really bad situation if allowed to go by himself.
 
Give Fang some faith. Ya clearly have that in abundance with Malestorn, the lower rank, much weaker in every aspect except speed Magikarp. Seriously with Malestorm you are heavily relying on the idea he'll never get hit at all in the fight. If he gets hit? It won't be pretty. Magikarp are not strong on principle. Yes, Malestorm can eventually come to be very strong. But at the moment he's like a normal Magikarp. Weak.

Let Fang do his own thing in the fight while we help Malestorm. I trust him to come up with a half ok plan on his own.
 
[X] Stay and fight the Gligar
-[X] Maelstrom
--[X] Bounce to get some height and then Harden at the apex and Aqua Jet to do a gravity-boosted impact. Make heavy use of Aqua Jet to avoid any counterattacks. Take advantage if the Glicar takes her eyes away from you and focuses on Fang.
-[X] Fang
--[X] Let Fang help in his own way, but recall him if he is about to get seriously hurt.

---[X] "You will never touch any of my partners as long as I live!" Haru mad.
 
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Well I don't think I'm going to be changing either of your minds, so I'll just stop with this.

Maelstrom can actually take more hits than Fang. Because it doesn't have a type disadvantage with STAB working against it. I know we tend more towards anime rules, but that should still be taken into account.

And do I have more faith in Magikarp? Yes, I do. Because Magikarp quite plainly as of right now has a moveset that lends itself more towards move combos that we can order him to use (which we can't do unless we leave Fang by himself).

I would rather Fang be out of the battle than on his own. I really don't want to use a Pokemon of ours "just for distraction" without really giving them any help and hoping they can figure things out on their own, despite them not really being up to that as of now.

I mean if you're going to use a Shonen "I won't let you hurt my friends" and then literally dump one of them as a meat shield, I think that says something. And not a good something.
 
WildCardFool said:
Maelstrom can actually take more hits than Fang. Because it doesn't have a type disadvantage with STAB working against it. I know we tend more towards anime rules, but that should still be taken into account.
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This is flat out bullshit. Magikarp are weak. Yes, he doesn't take super effective damage. But it's a Magikarp that's a whole rank lower against an opponent that gets an Attack boost. Out of the two, Malestorm is more likely to get OHKOd.
 
DarkKing98 said:
This is flat out bullshit. Magikarp are weak. Yes, he doesn't take super effective damage. But it's a Magikarp that's a whole rank lower against an opponent that gets an Attack boost. Out of the two, Malestorm is more likely to get OHKOd.
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WildCardFool said:
Well I don't think I'm going to be changing either of your minds, so I'll just stop with this.
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Nope, closed for business. I can clearly tell this is not going anywhere.
 
I should step in. This isn't an easy combat. Maelstrom is really weak and Fang is at a type disadvantage. I would say that if Maelstrom uses harden he could actually last a bit longer than Fang, but his hits are a lot weaker even if he can do a STAB super effective aqua Jet. It can't compare to a hit with Ice Fang.

Fang = High risk high reward

Maelstrom = More balanced. More resistance but a lot less attack.

There is also the problem with the ranks. Maelstrom's rank is too low to fight effectively, but with good rolls he can pull it off.
 
WildCardFool said:
Well I don't think I'm going to be changing either of your minds, so I'll just stop with this.

Maelstrom can actually take more hits than Fang. Because it doesn't have a type disadvantage with STAB working against it. I know we tend more towards anime rules, but that should still be taken into account.

And do I have more faith in Magikarp? Yes, I do. Because Magikarp quite plainly as of right now has a moveset that lends itself more towards move combos that we can order him to use (which we can't do unless we leave Fang by himself).

I would rather Fang be out of the battle than on his own. I really don't want to use a Pokemon of ours "just for distraction" without really giving them any help and hoping they can figure things out on their own, despite them not really being up to that as of now.

I mean if you're going to use a Shonen "I won't let you hurt my friends" and then literally dump one of them as a meat shield, I think that says something. And not a good something.
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Yeah, let's peacefully agree to disagree here, since this isn't a major deal in any case. The vote will pick something and I'll be happy with that.

I will just correct one final misunderstanding here, not because of trying to get votes, but because I don't want to be seen as someone throwing Fang coldly under the bus. Fang participates here with the same logic that the guy picked last in school PE classes participates. Even though he might suck, even though his only function in the field is to be a body in front of the opponent and the goal, he is in the team, and he stays on the field. He is not considered "a liability", because he isn't able to do much. He might not get passed the ball even once, and it might be as his only role was to be a meatshield. But he is given that opportunity to do his best in the role of a meatshield, and be a part of the team effort, and succeed or fail as any of the rest of the players. And any good spirited team will cheer their hearts out and celebrate with him, if he manages to do well and bodyblock an opponent. Being the meatshield for your team isn't a punishment, or a sign of abandonment. It is being able to be a part of the team, in every real sense that matters.
I truly believe this.
 
On that note
Adhoc vote count started by buli-buli on Dec 16, 2018 at 10:44 PM, finished with 1121 posts and 13 votes.
  • [X] Stay and fight the Gligar
    -[X] Maelstrom alone.
    --[X] Bounce to get some height and then Harden at the apex and Aqua Jet to do a gravity-boosted impact. Make heavy use of Aqua Jet to avoid any counterattacks.
    ---[X] "You will never touch any of my partners as long as I live!" Haru mad.
    [X] Stay and fight the Gligar
    -[X] Maelstrom
    -[X] Fang
    -[X] Constantly roulette attacks when it's in range. Only one should ever be attacking at a time.
    --[X] Space the two apart so that it can only ever target one, but not so far apart that they can't rush in once it picks a target
    ---[X] Wait and only attack once it approaches. Make it come to us
    ----[X] Dodge whenever possible, counter whenever possible.
    [X] Stay and fight the Gligar
    -[X] Maelstrom, Bounce, Harden while in the air, then Aqua Jet divebomb.
    [X] Stay and fight the Gligar
    -[X] Maelstrom alone.
    --[X] Bounce to get some height and then Harden at the apex and Aqua Jet to do a gravity-boosted impact. Make heavy use of Aqua Jet to avoid any counterattacks.
    [X] Stay and fight the Gligar
    -[X] Maelstrom
    -[X] Fang
    -[X] Constantly roulette attacks when it's in range. Only one should ever be attacking at a time.
    --[X] Space the two apart so that it can only ever target one, but not so far apart that they can't rush in once it picks a target
    ---[X] Wait and only attack once it approaches. Make it come to us
    ----[X] Dodge whenever possible, counter whenever possible.
    -----[X] "You will never touch any of my partners as long as I live!" Haru mad.
    [X] Stay and fight the Gligar
    -[X] Maelstrom, Bounce, Harden while in the air, then Aqua Jet divebomb into Tackle.
    [X] Stay and fight the Gligar
    -[X] Maelstrom
    --[X] Bounce to get some height and then Harden at the apex and Aqua Jet to do a gravity-boosted impact. Make heavy use of Aqua Jet to avoid any counterattacks. Take advantage if the Glicar takes her eyes away from you and focuses on Fang.
    -[X] Fang
    --[X] Let Fang help in his own way, but recall him if he is about to get seriously hurt.
    ---[X] "You will never touch any of my partners as long as I live!" Haru mad.
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[X] Stay and fight the Gligar
-[X] Maelstrom alone.
--[X] Bounce to get some height and then Harden at the apex and Aqua Jet to do a gravity-boosted impact. Make heavy use of Aqua Jet to avoid any counterattacks.
---[X] "You will never touch any of my partners as long as I live!" Haru mad.
 
[] Stay and fight the Gligar
-[] Maelstrom
-[] Fang
--[] Have Fang stay on the ground, ready to attack the Gligar with Ice Fang if she comes down
--[] Have Maelstrom trying to maneuver the Gligar down towards the ground, give Maelstrom most of our attention


Because we really need all our cards on the table here. That Gligar is stronger than any one of Haru's Pokemon, so we need both out to try and beat it. Plus, if we don't put enough pressure on the Gligar, then it might just go over and start attacking the Torchic with Bulldoze, which we really don't need.

Additionally, one of Fang's traits literally lets him act like a second trainer. Fang's smart, he'll know what to do while we pull off combos with Maelstrom.

Our wincon here is to get the Gligar on the ground so Fang can Ice her. We need to use Maelstrom to try and maneuver her down towards the ground.

If I knew the layout of the battle field a bit more, I might have something better...

Edit: Just went back to the chapter before this one, my hunch was right. We're in a narrow area with lots of crates and boxes to climb up.


[X] Stay and fight the Gligar
-[X] Maelstrom
-[X] Fang
--[X] Have Maelstrom do an aerial battle with Gligar using Aqua Jet. Focus on dodging and being distracting
--[X] Have Fang discretely climb up shipping boxes and containers until he's as high as he can get, then have him wait until Gligar is in range for him to pounce on her and attack with Ice Fang.

Here we go. Because Fang is a cat, he should be adept at clambering up into high places and pouncing on things, except this time it's an enemy Pokemon instead of a Starly or Pidgey. And with Fang's intelligence, I trust him to be able to judge when to attack.

Plus, this way Maelstrom can focus on dodging, which he should be good at, given his Swift Swim enhanced speed.

Additionally, Gligar can't actually fly, they can only glide, as the name implies. The opposing Gligar should be getting lower and lower as the fight goes on.
 
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KidFromPallet said:
[] Stay and fight the Gligar
-[] Maelstrom
-[] Fang
--[] Have Fang stay on the ground, ready to attack the Gligar with Ice Fang if she comes down
--[] Have Maelstrom trying to maneuver the Gligar down towards the ground, give Maelstrom most of our attention


Because we really need all our cards on the table here. That Gligar is stronger than any one of Haru's Pokemon, so we need both out to try and beat it. Plus, if we don't put enough pressure on the Gligar, then it might just go over and start attacking the Torchic with Bulldoze, which we really don't need.

Additionally, one of Fang's traits literally lets him act like a second trainer. Fang's smart, he'll know what to do while we pull off combos with Maelstrom.

Our wincon here is to get the Gligar on the ground so Fang can Ice her. We need to use Maelstrom to try and maneuver her down towards the ground.

If I knew the layout of the battle field a bit more, I might have something better...

Edit: Just went back to the chapter before this one, my hunch was right. We're in a narrow area with lots of crates and boxes to climb up.


[X] Stay and fight the Gligar
-[X] Maelstrom
-[X] Fang
--[X] Have Maelstrom do an aerial battle with Gligar using Aqua Jet. Focus on dodging and being distracting
--[X] Have Fang discretely climb up shipping boxes and containers until he's as high as he can get, then have him wait until Gligar is in range for him to pounce on her and attack with Ice Fang.

Here we go. Because Fang is a cat, he should be adept at clambering up into high places and pouncing on things, except this time it's an enemy Pokemon instead of a Starly or Pidgey. And with Fang's intelligence, I trust him to be able to judge when to attack.

Plus, this way Maelstrom can focus on dodging, which he should be good at, given his Swift Swim enhanced speed.

Additionally, Gligar can't actually fly, they can only glide, as the name implies. The opposing Gligar should be getting lower and lower as the fight goes on.
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Too tired to make arguments. The thread has gone over many of the assumptions you make, both with and without Luxicato's input. You might be evaluating some things too high, including Haru's ability to guide 2 pokemon at the same time proficiently, Maelstrom's ability to hang on against the Gligar without Harden, and Fang's ability to work intelligently independently while he is still so young. I will say that if your vote works it sounds pretty cool.
 
Paroni said:
Too tired to make arguments. The thread has gone over many of the assumptions you make, both with and without Luxicato's input. You might be evaluating some things too high, including Haru's ability to guide 2 pokemon at the same time proficiently, Maelstrom's ability to hang on against the Gligar without Harden, and Fang's ability to work intelligently independently while he is still so young. I will say that if your vote works it sounds pretty cool.
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If you're tired, I don't really want to keep you, but I figured I should try to defend my idea.

How I see it working is like this:

  • Tell Fang to climb up as high as he can, and then strike the Gligar with Ice Fang when he can.
  • While Fang climbs Mt. Boxonet, Haru commands Maelstrom, focusing on prolonging the battle with dodging and Harden.
  • When Haru sees Fang is in position, he guides Maelstrom over there, which should provoke the Gligar to follow him.
  • When the Gligar is led into range, Fang hits her with an Ice Fang.
 
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