We aren't Jack Rakan.
...Yet.
A Simple Transaction I
- Thread starter Rihaku
- Start date
- Original
...Yet.
- Location
- USA
[X] R-Type #1
[X] Preparation: Focus
[X] Preparation: Withdrawal
Fight, but flee if we can't win. Hopefully we can escape with the other R-type. I think Fleeing is much more valuable than it appears because we can gain power quickly and have Gisena help us. If we can escape with the other R-type...seems like a pretty big victory all things considered.
Now that Fairbright lies dead I kind of regret not having her side with us. Maybe our fear of her was overblown and she could have been a stalwart ally.
[X] Preparation: Focus
[X] Preparation: Withdrawal
Fight, but flee if we can't win. Hopefully we can escape with the other R-type. I think Fleeing is much more valuable than it appears because we can gain power quickly and have Gisena help us. If we can escape with the other R-type...seems like a pretty big victory all things considered.
Now that Fairbright lies dead I kind of regret not having her side with us. Maybe our fear of her was overblown and she could have been a stalwart ally.
LordOfMurder
Bhaal
- Location
- Australia
He can't miss even if he can't see his target anymore? OP plz nerf
- Location
- Omniverse #1345
I'm of the opinion that him having killed Fairbright here was... unwise. She was young and weak for her line. What are the odds at least one other member can bring back the dead and/or will be a little... testy... about this? The Temple seems to be doomed, because there are only so many you can kill before one of them has friends, family, lovers, or even possessive enemies that are strong enough to obliterate the place out of hand that will notice their fate. And be very unhappy. ...Also I get the feeling the Ring's Call is getting stronger the longer this keep up, rather than weaker. Eventually something will hear it that has no interest in the Temple but will smash the entire place just for bothering it. There are downsides to living in a place with such... insane power level differentials.
...Or maybe eventually a Dragon that want to add the ring to its collection will show. Or something of the like. An artifact like that calling out... Yeah, this place is utterly doomed. And probably was from the moment they set up shop.
If we could impress upon him that the inner temple is anything but truly Safe... (It is a powerfully defended fortress. ...against what amounts to gnats, in the grand scheme. A single fully functional armament could destroy this place entirely, couldn't it?)
...Or maybe eventually a Dragon that want to add the ring to its collection will show. Or something of the like. An artifact like that calling out... Yeah, this place is utterly doomed. And probably was from the moment they set up shop.
If we could impress upon him that the inner temple is anything but truly Safe... (It is a powerfully defended fortress. ...against what amounts to gnats, in the grand scheme. A single fully functional armament could destroy this place entirely, couldn't it?)
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Lealope
Not yet invincible
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Those stacked on top of Ruinous Valour would effectively mitigate the worst downsides of Strangethorn's low agility since we'd have the ranged attack capabilities to substitute for melee.
That in combination with Fall of Night increasing the efficiency of our blade-projections, Dreadnaught's Bearing boosting our resistance to Tiredness and Exhaustion and our Ring making any Fell Handed-Strike that lands exponentially worse and we'd have to basis for an amazing Attrition fighter.
A default match would look like blade projection to position the enemy -> doubled strength Zweihander Thousand Cuts -> Stalling with the Iron Dreadnaught backed with doubled Consitution -> incite them to bleed our with the Chief Dominion.
It's honestly a pretty good strategy against most opponents. Especially if you picked up something to expand the domain of your Ring into spiritual wounds.
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LordOfMurder
Bhaal
- Location
- Australia
It's possible that all the Fairbright's died trying this given we don't know how old this civilization is.
- Location
- Omniverse #1345
Eh, the way he spoke... There are far older and stronger Fairbright's out there.
Still, we do have something of an ideal of the scale of this universe (Rihaku laughed when I said planetary power levels) and this Temple, while way out of our current league, is absolutely nowhere near the top. Ber, who hasn't been in this realm any longer than we have, has more than a chance against the inner residents, given it's only a "probably" we beat him if we clear the Temple.
Eventually they're going to attract a bigger fish that doesn't care what they have to say. And then the whole place vanishes in an instant. Both Hunger and the Tyrant at their full power would probably be able to destroy this place fairly easily, for example.
Hell, if Letrizia camps outside long enough Ber might decide to give it a run if we die here...
They can only roll the dice so many times before eventually they get snake eyes and a bored ascendent shows up and gets pissed that one of their favorite rings is being tortured, or something.
And then there is us. If we die here, how long before the Accursed puts another progression-cursebearer in this realm? If we had come here with a month or two more power under our belt this Temple would have been well within our abilities. And the next cursebearer may not be so foolishly bold as we are.
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They're not any kind of secret and have existed for a long time. If no super powerhouse conquered them until now, why would it happen later all of a sudden? Either something prevents it from happening (Voyaging Realm's special properties, specific Temple defenses, what have you) or nobody really cares about them. It's possible from our PoV, but doesn't sound like something that would convince him.
Though I guess we could threaten that if we die, Letrizia does too, and then the Empire is going to start looking for the place where their Armament disappeared. Assuming he doesn't decide getting an Armament is worth the trouble.
Though I guess we could threaten that if we die, Letrizia does too, and then the Empire is going to start looking for the place where their Armament disappeared. Assuming he doesn't decide getting an Armament is worth the trouble.
Lealope
Not yet invincible
- Pronouns
- She/Her
As a point of reference, keep in mind that an otherwise mundane human at Rank 10 could beat a Stage 15 EFB-style Cultivator, depending on matchups. For those who don't know, a Stage 15 has literally infinite amounts of physical strength. Like "breath too hard you accidentally a supercluster" levels of strength. The point where no finite but arbitrarily high amount of durability can be any kind of barrier to you.
This universe doesn't fuck around.
Nah, Rihaku later clarified that by "favoured" in a fight with Ber, he meant we'd stomp him if we had cleared th Temple.
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I'm not sure, but I think it means alter as in the opposite of anterior, which is traditionally spelled Ulterior but not always. So it's the throne, and the power behind it.
- Location
- Omniverse #1345
Existing for a long time and being horrifically unstable are not contradictions. It simply needs to be that no one has wandered by just yet. But they will. The Ring will keep trying until it gets someone that can free it, or someone who tries and fails has allies that are strong enough and will be... unhappy... about it.
Eventually a misjudgment will be made and the Temple will fall. And does he really want to bet his sister's safety it won't be within her life time? Especially as Letrizia's presence anywhere near this place might be sufficient to eventually bring an armament by. And an undamaged one can destroy the place purely because the pilot found the Call mildly annoying!
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It's a theoretical possibility, much like getting hit by a meteorite is a possibility for any of us. How many people do you see taking such a thing seriously?
Like, not saying we can't make all the logical arguments we want, but he seems somewhat divorced from a normal mindset, maybe because of their cultural brainwashing, maybe because his soul is so fucked up. He firmly believes that the Inner Temple is some kind of invincible paradise, and why would he believe otherwise due to mere words from yet another R-Type?
This is the guy who thinks 'thrust' is the solution to every problem and makes it work.
- Location
- Omniverse #1345
Because his House has fallen once. His House was, itself, greater than everything this temple has to offer put together. And it fell.
He should know more than anything that there is nothing which is invulnerable. Nothing that cannot fall. The only hope is to rise faster than your enemies. And the Temple is stagnation. Because they have a single, finite, if immense, source they are drawing upon. They cannot grow fast enough. If they could why would R-types be a problem at all?
Everything falls. If this Temple was well-hidden and unknown it may just have a chance. But it is not. And it does not. He is the strongest of the Middle Residents. And we would be able to destroy him, given a week. How can the Temple hold against something like that, if it arrives just a little bit later in its evolution? They have gotten lucky so far. But as the fate of his house proves you cannot count on getting lucky forever. Eventually your enemies will find a weak spot, and you will fail. Without the call this would likely take thousands, tens of thousands of year. With it? Within a normal lifespan is quite probable.
Killing us does not solve the problem. It merely pushes it back. Days? Weeks? Months? Years? Even decades. But it will hit its limit. And then everything will be gone. The temple is not a stable place for his family to begin to regain their name. And it is too slow, too isolated, and too self-contained to be a good springboard. If it was better why would they be hiding in the depths of the voyaging realm praying nothing truly powerful notices them and takes offense?
Do not put all your eggs in a stationary basket in an ever shifting universe. Particularly in a place like the Voyaging realm, that's designed explicitly to draw R-types.
I am intentionally avoiding the obvious - that the inner residence is not nearly as awesome as it is said to be. If it was they wouldn't keep the details so secret. Though... this is something to try if nothing else works. Because he contains his father's soul. And his father knew the truth at some point. I suspect it might react. But this is best avoided, as it is unpredictable.
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- Location
- Philippines
Today continues to be a rather exhausting day.
So exhausting that I belatedly realized that fucking little miss sunshine is dead. Cadavarrific.
Also, I need to untick my number 5 on the prio list. I wanted a huge ass monster fights, not normal looking person who practiced the same move 10 million times with a sad and rather relatable backstory about having to carry around the warped wishes of your father to ensure the safety of your younger sibling for a false utopia.
I wonder if he has any additional forms too. Hero Defeating Stance would have been super cool here too. Conceptually middle finger his Thrust.
Ugh, now I kinda feel some remorse about not giving a token of effort into getting Fairbright for all that potential political advantage with the help of Von Atriez.
So exhausting that I belatedly realized that fucking little miss sunshine is dead. Cadavarrific.
Also, I need to untick my number 5 on the prio list. I wanted a huge ass monster fights, not normal looking person who practiced the same move 10 million times with a sad and rather relatable backstory about having to carry around the warped wishes of your father to ensure the safety of your younger sibling for a false utopia.
I wonder if he has any additional forms too. Hero Defeating Stance would have been super cool here too. Conceptually middle finger his Thrust.
Ugh, now I kinda feel some remorse about not giving a token of effort into getting Fairbright for all that potential political advantage with the help of Von Atriez.
But we're not telling him not to put his eggs in a single basket. We're asking him to throw away the basket that has existed perfectly well for who knows how long (centuries? more?) and invest his eggs in a complete unknown because... it might be better? They have their own Ring that gives them a means of growing quickly, and it's something he knows well and can be sure of.
If there was some room for maneuver between us and the Temple, maybe hedging his bets could be a line of argumentation. But we can't honestly say that if he lets us go, we won't come back stronger and more dangerous, ready to take away the basis of their civilization. R-types are specifically known for being fast-growing, plenty of past ones probably promised him the sun and the moon if he just lets them go. But he's learned that the best thing to do is just to kill them as swiftly as possible.
- Location
- Omniverse #1345
I kinda doubt it. We're in a pretty unique position of being able to tell the Call to fuck off and being willing to talk. I suspect he doesn't get sent out against many that are willing and able to talk.
We are asking him to abandon a ship that could hit a hidden iceberg with no warning at any moment in favor of the favor of someone whose growth rate is exactly that: Capable of challenging even the Inner temple in less than a month. True, it's a bit dangerous in the short run. But so was merging himself to his fathers soul. He is willing to take risks for his sister, even if he knows they will ultimately doom him.
Except they aren't really growing that quickly? This place has been here decades and matches less than 3 months of Hunger's growth curve on a more conservative route. Whatever power they are obtaining from that ring, it isn't very much compared to true potential. It's why they have to be so careful to crush R-types as soon as they get the chance. A balance like that can never last.
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DarkSideBard
Flying, without moving on
...k.
[X] R-Type #1
[X] Preparation: Withdrawal
[X] Preparation: Dialogue
hmm
hmmmmmm
hmmmmmmmmmmmm
hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
HMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM
I'm going to fucking laugh so hard when this turns into the greatest clusterfuck. Apocryphal isn't even on right now, but that doesn't mean we can't roll a 1/100.
Anyways, tactics-wise, the best battle tactics have already been mentioned (preventing thrusts via being in close or destroying his sword or blocking his view, fucking around with his composite soul using Blood Domain, Counterblows). Though I noticed nobody really talked about taking a killing blow for a counterstroke, going into Second Form, and then cheesing his hitscan Thrust by letting it phase through us. Even if obscuring his sight with blood or dirt doesn't work, maybe we could run away without getting stabbed in the back using phasing? We could pull a Mirio and temporarily phase down into the ground before jumping out. We're fast enough in Second Form to get really far away with even a moment of interruption like that. I hesitate to suggest it, but something like a Piccolo/Goku/Raditz strategy might also be valid if we get put in a bad enough position. It's really hard to strategize with someone we haven't met yet in mind. I would be more confident in Hunger's ability to do it extemporaneously (as he surely had to do many times over his career), but Tyrant might interfere in that.
I think the main thing to remember, which Hunger hasn't internalized yet due to our decisions, is that Progression Cursebearers win by simply not losing over a very, very long span of time. Not winning any given confrontation doesn't matter as long as you don't take an ultimate loss. Given the power of unlimited progression, nearly every single kind of nonfatal loss is either ignorable or retroactively reversible into a tie or a win given enough time. Apocryphal makes this harder, but not untrue. The most important thing here, in a highly risky scenario, is not to risk all by committing to fight to the death. It's to walk the line of risk and reward without succumbing to sunk cost fallacy that keeps him in the fight longer than he should stay.
- Location
- Omniverse #1345
[X] R-Type #1
[X] Preparation: Withdrawal
[X] Preparation: Dialogue
@Orm Embar: You basically control the vote on this one, with all the omake power and people following you, so I'm pinging you. The more I think about the less I like our chances in a fight. With the other R-type we may be able to win, but it's probably extremely unlikely. Like less than 20% unlikely.
Better to withdraw, grow, and return. A defeat here should be sufficient to dislodge Hunger's monofocused mindset on freeing the Ring. We can convince him that it's okay to build up and return when we are able to truly free it. ...Even if that just means repairing Versch entirely and having him simply smash through everything in his path to the ring.
I believe we have a decent chance of convincing him the temple is a losing bet, and not what he truly wants for his sister. But beyond that...
[X] Preparation: Withdrawal
[X] Preparation: Dialogue
@Orm Embar: You basically control the vote on this one, with all the omake power and people following you, so I'm pinging you. The more I think about the less I like our chances in a fight. With the other R-type we may be able to win, but it's probably extremely unlikely. Like less than 20% unlikely.
Better to withdraw, grow, and return. A defeat here should be sufficient to dislodge Hunger's monofocused mindset on freeing the Ring. We can convince him that it's okay to build up and return when we are able to truly free it. ...Even if that just means repairing Versch entirely and having him simply smash through everything in his path to the ring.
I believe we have a decent chance of convincing him the temple is a losing bet, and not what he truly wants for his sister. But beyond that...
In hopes of ensuring we spontaneously regrow Hunger's sacrificed talent for talking people into treason and running away from impossible conflicts, here's some thoughts on how to Dialogue.
Hunger doesn't know about Vanreir's sister. But he can tell he's crushingly injured, and that he's horrifyingly determined. Also probably some blood-sense stuff, enough to know his soul's damaged, possibly fused with somethin' OP as shit, and maybe related to bloodline. With that tangent now thoroughly defrayed, let's consider means of social approach.
He is obviously loyal, but loyalty has source and explanation. It's not a foundation but a structure, and to ruin a structure most easily requires... you guessed it, Age and Treachery! In practice treachery's appeal is inherent to any sufficiently shat-upon individual - and the more tortured the party, the more old and ingrained the reason for compliance must be. In this way, Hunger can actually by way of experience (half-remembered or otherwise) be expected to assume it to be home, family, or both Vanreir is fighting for. Though it would be an immediate failure state to mention such in the first or second salvo.
To try and talk down a man who has every impersonal reason to want to kill you, the first rule is to NOT try to make it personal. His detachment keeps him sane; to remove it would drive him to a breakdown (and likely suicidal violence), not consideration. Instead align yourself with his true position. Present yourself as a third party; the Ring may help with this. The freedom of the Ring is your goal, but your Ring has made you able to consider methods not related to slaughter or domination. This must be done quickly and comprehensively, but Hunger already doesn't mince words.
With it understood that you are an enemy who doesn't have to be, you still... will have to take the Thrust, sad to say. He's all about that follow-through. But again, this is to be expected of guerrilla activity. Only a sociopath can't see the similarities between a fearless revolutionary and a savage conqueror. But Hunger should already know this too, if only logically. To appeal to the more reasoned side of a foe, you must either negotiate from a position of absolute power (not likely), or first show yourself willing to sacrifice for your cause. This if done correctly could turn receiving the Thrust into a fortifying aspect rather than a deleterious one. If his appearance is any indicator, he'll understand the weight that choosing to suffer carries on more a visceral level than most.
The important part is making sure it's understood that we don't emotionally care about the Inner Civilization at all. Its soldiers and civilians alike are not our enemy, only the jailing of the Ring itself. They can be spared, their people put under the power of our Ring instead if need be. It's not mercy or rational self-interest, but the simple clarity of an outsider with the power to choose. Once we're no longer suspected of being a psychological subversive, then we can go in for the kill. His lineage, his ideals, his home and his people - all of these can be saved from the endless war promised by the Ring's captivity.
Not that such would likely matter to him personally. A soldier grows accustomed to his duty after a time. But all the ails of a society are heightened and calcified in an age of war, when the looming shadow of foreign aggression makes any sacrifice acceptable. What is the waste of corruption before the perceived powerlessness of the idealistic? Or social iniquity compared to the horror of occupation and anarchy? Both Hunger and out voter-base know this all-too well. In matters of war victory has many costs, but defeat has only one.
So all things considered, he's probably not beyond reason. But we have to be something he doesn't expect, can't put down, and won't want to ignore. I'm sad Gisena's not here, but then she'd probably die when the Thrust turns out to be Null-immune.
Hunger doesn't know about Vanreir's sister. But he can tell he's crushingly injured, and that he's horrifyingly determined. Also probably some blood-sense stuff, enough to know his soul's damaged, possibly fused with somethin' OP as shit, and maybe related to bloodline. With that tangent now thoroughly defrayed, let's consider means of social approach.
He is obviously loyal, but loyalty has source and explanation. It's not a foundation but a structure, and to ruin a structure most easily requires... you guessed it, Age and Treachery! In practice treachery's appeal is inherent to any sufficiently shat-upon individual - and the more tortured the party, the more old and ingrained the reason for compliance must be. In this way, Hunger can actually by way of experience (half-remembered or otherwise) be expected to assume it to be home, family, or both Vanreir is fighting for. Though it would be an immediate failure state to mention such in the first or second salvo.
To try and talk down a man who has every impersonal reason to want to kill you, the first rule is to NOT try to make it personal. His detachment keeps him sane; to remove it would drive him to a breakdown (and likely suicidal violence), not consideration. Instead align yourself with his true position. Present yourself as a third party; the Ring may help with this. The freedom of the Ring is your goal, but your Ring has made you able to consider methods not related to slaughter or domination. This must be done quickly and comprehensively, but Hunger already doesn't mince words.
With it understood that you are an enemy who doesn't have to be, you still... will have to take the Thrust, sad to say. He's all about that follow-through. But again, this is to be expected of guerrilla activity. Only a sociopath can't see the similarities between a fearless revolutionary and a savage conqueror. But Hunger should already know this too, if only logically. To appeal to the more reasoned side of a foe, you must either negotiate from a position of absolute power (not likely), or first show yourself willing to sacrifice for your cause. This if done correctly could turn receiving the Thrust into a fortifying aspect rather than a deleterious one. If his appearance is any indicator, he'll understand the weight that choosing to suffer carries on more a visceral level than most.
The important part is making sure it's understood that we don't emotionally care about the Inner Civilization at all. Its soldiers and civilians alike are not our enemy, only the jailing of the Ring itself. They can be spared, their people put under the power of our Ring instead if need be. It's not mercy or rational self-interest, but the simple clarity of an outsider with the power to choose. Once we're no longer suspected of being a psychological subversive, then we can go in for the kill. His lineage, his ideals, his home and his people - all of these can be saved from the endless war promised by the Ring's captivity.
Not that such would likely matter to him personally. A soldier grows accustomed to his duty after a time. But all the ails of a society are heightened and calcified in an age of war, when the looming shadow of foreign aggression makes any sacrifice acceptable. What is the waste of corruption before the perceived powerlessness of the idealistic? Or social iniquity compared to the horror of occupation and anarchy? Both Hunger and out voter-base know this all-too well. In matters of war victory has many costs, but defeat has only one.
So all things considered, he's probably not beyond reason. But we have to be something he doesn't expect, can't put down, and won't want to ignore. I'm sad Gisena's not here, but then she'd probably die when the Thrust turns out to be Null-immune.
- Location
- USA
It's possible that Ber is the other R-type, of course. But our potential for progression far outstrips his own. For him to be the other R-type means they have severely underestimated our growth.
For tactics against 1 Cut, he does have one obvious weakness. His vision. Though I'm guessing we lack the hemokinesis to just explode his eyeballs, aiming for his head and hoping for just a glancing cut could give us the opening we need to using our Ring to keep his blood flowing endlessly and impair his vision.
For tactics against 1 Cut, he does have one obvious weakness. His vision. Though I'm guessing we lack the hemokinesis to just explode his eyeballs, aiming for his head and hoping for just a glancing cut could give us the opening we need to using our Ring to keep his blood flowing endlessly and impair his vision.