A Simple Transaction I

[Talace]

Honestly I don't see the appeal of Dreadnought. It provides significant defensive buffs and rare stats - and I understand people being draw to Rune King. But you are aware that Rihaku doesn't promote things because they would be the optimal build or even the best story, right? He's promoting it because it did relatively poorly prior to the consolidation vote, and has few voices for it.

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The appeal of Dreadnought probably stems from three very understandable points:

1.) Depending on the choice, either regrowing our eye, or ridiculous magic system scaling. Both are immensely cool, one because the readers have come to care for Hunger and becoming whole again, and the other because holy shit can you imagine how cool it would be to master all the magic systems and synthesize them into a meta-magic system (or, knowing Rihaku, infinite cardinalities of magic systems?)​

2.) Resisting Tired and Exhausted, making us less vulnerable overall (plus the benefits of ignoring Exotic Attacks through Con is actually quite powerful).​

3.) Synergy with Iron Curtain and a massive stat boost (although not as large a boost as Stranglethorn, it sidesteps the loss of Agility, which some voters view to be important.)​

​

Personally, I see Dreadnought as the next thing to take immediately after Stranglethorn. Their synergy is immense, the power is undeniable. Stacking a Constitution plus giving it amazing utility in blocking Exotic Attacks through a Con check is remarkably strong, and I want a second eye too. It's just that fights that give us 4 picks are remarkably rare, and Undying Vanguard lets us bring Gisena in. So unfortunately Thousand Cuts in my opinion has fallen by the wayside until we can pick these Stranglethorn and Dreadnought in that order (unless someone can convince me of Ruinous Valor to follow).

 

[Byzantine]

I mostly dislike giving up his eye, I'll be honest here. The Tyrant and the ones that pulled his strings to break Destiny do not deserve to leave any impact on the world at all. And Hunger losing his eye because of them stings, as a result. Let all their works fade. Let all they have wrought be dust. Let the memory of their successes fade and fail, until no one remembers. let them have accomplished nothing but bringing about their own downfall.

 

[Cerillian]

What does it mean to dream big? Is it to spend the greater portion of power on restoration, rather than leveraging the metaphysical strength of that loss to vastly greater strength?

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It means to lie to the world, and say, 'Yea, I blew that budget on repairing myself, because for me it was pocket change.' Then daring the world to prove one wrong.

To say, nah, my exercise routine is enough to win, I don't need all your fancy die-job changes. Choose not to pay the world the fee's it demanded of a god, and insist that the world cough up wisdom anyway.

It is arrogant, yes, but for the moment I'm feeling fond of the idea.

 

[Shard]

Agreed with what runeblue has said.

[X] Push in Further
[X] Dreadnought - Echo, Dreadnought's Bearing
-[X] Rune King

Passing up all the psychological wellbeing options (Balance, Conclusion, Unshattered, going to Town) and then saying the ultimately cosmetic replacement of an eye will begin turning back the trauma? Ridiculous. It's not in Hunger's characterization now. Unmarred flesh does not make for an unmarred mind or spirit - And as one who has the second and third forms, that fact is far truer that we can imagine.

 

[Dark Abstraction]

[X] Sweep the Outskirts
[X] Don't Bring Gisena
[X] Dreadnought
-[X] Sharp of Eye

The eight-armed destroyer, or the Hand of Justice itself? Restoration, or apotheosis?

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I somewhat resent this comment, because it doesn't feel like it's a good-faith statement; the Hand of Justice in no way involved the loss of a hand/arm, and if they could have been taken in conjunction the Hand of Justice would have in theory been entirely functional with the metaphysical functionality of the Destroyer Halo.

 

[Redshirt Army]

I have a deep-seated aversion to permanently maiming Hunger for power, especially when there are other competitive options that give comparable amounts of power without that cost.

I'd happily vote for a number of plans other than Stranglethorn, but Rune King won't be one of them.

 

[Talace]

When we took Vendetta, we decided Hungerd to postpone the resurrection of his family for an untold number of years before giving up a chance at revenge. When we decided to throw him into danger again and again, we decided to make him the kind of person who would rather risk death than rely on his friends. When we decided not to take Unshattered, Queller or Conclusion, we decided to prioritise power over psychological well being.

Deciding you're going to use your amazing magical powers to remove all your physical scars doesn't actually change the impact they had on you. Hunger getting his eye back will not turn back the clock. It won't restore his innocence, it won't unmurder his friends and family and it won't make him less obsessed with vengeance. All it will do is restore his depth perception and give him access to Special Eyes.

It rings more than a little hollow to decide to take Sharp Eyed for recovery from trauma after all that.

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I think part of it is that Rune King permanently bars us from ever regrowing or replacing our eye. It is true that getting back the eye does nothing for the trauma done to Hunger, but we would be a step closer to feeling whole again-- to see the world around you the way you did before you were jettisoned into a horrorscape of vengeance and hate. That means something, perhaps not to us, perhaps not to the stats, but it definitely means something to Hunger, to claw back a piece of yourself through blood and dust and finally feel hope that with a strong swordarm and a will of iron you can return to who you were.

 

[Orm Embar]

We were at 8.75 Arete before Byzantine and Conjured's latest reactions. 9.25, if Push wins. If we somehow manage to grind our way up to 12 Arete before the next update, we could take both Dreadnought and Vanguard. That's got some obvious synergies, though 13 would be safer so Rage doesn't trigger Arete debt, the one condition the Dreadnought can't just power through.

 

[Shard]

I think part of it is that Rune King permanently bars us from ever regrowing or replacing our eye. It is true that getting back the eye does nothing for the trauma done to Hunger, but we would be a step closer to feeling whole again-- to see the world around you the way you did before you were jettisoned into a horrorscape of vengeance and hate. That means something, perhaps not to us, perhaps not to the stats, but it definitely means something to Hunger, to claw back a piece of yourself through blood and dust and finally feel hope that with a strong swordarm and a will of iron you can return to who you were.

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Is that why Forsaken Mask and Balance both had crushing defeats?

 

[George]

...I'm terrified the vote is going to go exactly like it did last time. I don't want that to happen again. We seriously messed up getting Rage as it is significantly riskier than most of us thought, in that the trigger can and will fail for regular foes.

To the Dreadnought voters that don't want us to lose an eye: I'll owe you one if you switch to Strangletorn, or even keep Strong sword arm in play.

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you're very passionate about many votes, take care you don't trade a vote away here and have it called in on one you're even more invested in!!

 

[Rihaku]

Hm... Hunger doesn't really think about his lost body parts much. They're just not relevant on the scale of losses compared to his friends, wife, child etc. He would much rather have the power to bring them back, and protect them when they return.

It's a bit sad that Apex and Sword-Arm are so low in the running. With this vote not having the option of a milquetoast Balancebro choice, maybe I should bring back two-approval voting? Would make things a bit harder to consolidate, though...

Anyway, with all this fuss about restoring Hunger's organs, how about taking Sword-Arm, the choice that's guaranteed to grow one back?

 

[Talace]

Hm... Hunger doesn't really think about his lost body parts much. They're just not relevant on the scale of losses compared to his friends, wife, child etc. He would much rather have the power to bring them back, and protect them when they return.

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Huh. Nevermind, I take everything back. Go Stranglethorn!

 

[Sickul]

[x]Search For Humans
[x]Bring Gisena
[x]Dreadnought
-[x]Rune King

Ultimately think of all the different 7 Arete and EFB options we've had. How many have offered the immediate power of Dreadnought and combined it with the pure potential of Rune King? Rune king doesn't even offer a huge boost in one magic system, which would be good enough. If offers it for all others we would ever learn.

Think about it, if Wreath offered TSH with the magic system you chose with it, would you have taken it? It's a big enough upgrade I probably would have. This adds that line to all magic system votes forever.

I think Rune King is the option I could see myself regretting not taking the most, when we get a magic system and know we could be what, 4x farther in it that we actually are?

And Int and Wis both seem to map to increasing our battle plan rolls, which seems to have a large effect on our effectiveness. That was the difference between victory and defeat against the wurm.

Vote Rune King. Two eyes is less impressive than it seems, and eyepatches look cool anyway!

 

[Byzantine]

To Sunder Everything​

As the Aeons have passed Hunger has grown, and grown, and grown. He learned his true foes long ago. But he did not act. For his Anger was a cold one. And his vengeance could wait. It would wait until the perfect moment. And so another Aeon would come and go. And then the moment was true.

For a moment the Geas was broken. It held him no longer. He knew it would return, and that there would be a heavy toll to give up his Final Mitigation on breaking it's grip on him, even for a few brief hours. But that was okay, for it was more than worth it. Hunger had timed everything perfectly. All the power he spent so many aeons gaining. All the knowledge. All the Skills. it was all for this single moment.

For this was their crowning moment. The moment the puppet masters that has played him and the Tyrant against one another, mere pieces on a board, were due to achieve their final victory. This was the moment that they would rise to rival even the greatest of the Accursed's foes. And Hunger's arrival had just shoved a wrench in everything.

A plan in motion for longer than humanly possible to conceive of. More parts than exist in a million universe. So many pieces. Lives ruins, lives saved, lives burned, pasts shattered, futures consumed. They had done so very much to reach this Crowning Moment. And as the crown descended it shattered into nothingness.

It was not a long fight, not really. For Hunger had surpassed them long ago. He chose this moment to strike not because it was the most fitting, though it was, not because it was most satisfying, though it was. He chose this moment because this was the moment all of their work across multiverse converged. And so this was the single moment in which every single actions they has every taken could be made to amount to nothing. Dust in a forgotten wind in a forgotten world in a forgotten universe, all long dead and gone before the first living thing had ever been.

And with all the power he had accumulated and all his will Hunger pushed. And Reality Shattered.

A moment later and everything was as it had been... except for the Broken Story had been made whole. The Hero never failed, against the Tyrant. The jaunt was always just a jaunt. Things had been restored to how they should have been in every timeline. Every timeline save one. For Hunger did not wish to change his own past. He had no need of it. What they had done to him had long been overcome, forgotten, and erased. All save one thing. The thing he wanted most. For he had wanted to wait until the multiverse itself was free of his true foes, once and for all.

And with the final spark of power he had collected for this day a breathe was drawn.

-----

501 words.

Inspiration, so fleeting, but for a moment...

 

[Lealope]

I mostly dislike giving up his eye, I'll be honest here. The Tyrant and the ones that pulled his strings to break Destiny do not deserve to leave any impact on the world at all. And Hunger losing his eye because of them stings, as a result. Let all their works fade. Let all they have wrought be dust. Let the memory of their successes fade and fail, until no one remembers. let them have accomplished nothing but bringing about their own downfall.

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Rihaku actually posted a funny thing earlier that I think is illustrative.

It's got to be the ability to leave a lasting legacy that'll carry your will and ideals into the future.

Why else would the Forebear's Blade give us powers like the Forebear's, and the potential to know details of his life?

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FINAL-FORM:

TYRANT: What am I doing here? Is this *******'s body!?

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Hunger is a living monument to their existence. They are the ones who pushed him into being a Cursebearer, into giving up his ideals and taking the Doom of the Tyrant, into potentially doing more damage than the Tyrant ever could by taking the fucking Decimator's Affliction.

They're the ones who made him look at the possibility of a happy life with his family and decide nah, actually he'd rather spend the next few hundreds of thousands of years so he could get the power to stab them in the face. And for that chance to stab them, he decided to accept a few hundred octillion years of violence and conquest.

Hunger could become powerful enough to retroactively erase them from all continuums of all dimensions it still wouldn't make the pain that they caused him any less real. It still wouldn't make him a healthy person. If you're going into Sharp Eye because you want to eventually subject the people that hurt you to damnatio memoriae, that's not something you're doing to recover from your wounds. Effectively, all it would be is another expression of vengeance.

 

[Dark Abstraction]

Passing up all the psychological wellbeing options (Balance, Conclusion, Unshattered, going to Town) and then saying the ultimately cosmetic replacement of an eye will begin turning back the trauma? It's not in Hunger's characterization now. Unmarred flesh does not make for an unmarred mind or spirit - And as one who has the second and third forms, that fact is far truer that we can imagine.

Click to shrink...

No, those were psychologically accepting the existing status as the new normal, the new 'whole' form - being maimed, forever bearing the ruination wrought by the Tyrant's hand.

Fuck that.

To tell an amputee that they must accept their disfiguration into their heart instead of undoing it when the possibility is available is both wrong and reprehensible. (Clarification: This isn't an ad hominen attack towards you, just towards the validity of that argument)

Restoration of appendages with which one may once again interact with the world is not 'cosmetic' and it's disingenuous to call it so; it is the incorporation of capabilities previously impossible, pieces of the self ground away by the belt sander of misery which was the war against the Tyrant. To see the world with both eyes once more, to hold the face of a loved one with both hands where before this possibility was forever beyond him, these are absolutely things which can be ascribed towards the improvement of psychological wellness. It posits that the mutilation is a condition to be undone, not a fate to accept.

For a Cursebearer granted the gift of infinite Progression, that is the only true path; there is no accepting the dictates of cruel fate and foul foe. There is only the will of the Cursebearer, and what they would see done. The power born of accepting their diminishment is nothing before the endless growth laid before them on a path from which his feet cannot stray.

 

[Shard]

Scars on the flesh are cosmetic. Scars on the mind are not. I can say from personal experience, I prefer the former to the latter. If given the choice.

If Hunger's wellbeing was truly valued, then we would have looked at options such as Forsaken Mask (which immediately brought back his wife and child) or Balance (stated by Rihaku to be the most psychologically stable). Then there were choices such as Unshattered or Conclusion which restored it. He did not select them. By our choices, Hunger is a man who much like Baenlixnaier - Vengeance, at any cost. What is a body part - or several - compared to that? Is having depth perception going to start healing him?

Or: Would you say amputees aren't able to live a whole and complete life? That by being marred of flesh, they are also marred in mind and spirit? There are many who would say that you are wrong.

 

[Redshirt Army]

If we were doing a two-approval voting, I'd definetly pick Sword-Arm as my second choice.

In general, my preferences are something like:

Stranglethorn > Sword-Arm > Dreadnought (Sharp) = Apex >> Dreadnought (Rune King)

 

[Byzantine]

Hunger could become powerful enough to retroactively erase them from all continuums of all dimensions it still wouldn't make the pain that they caused him any less real. It still wouldn't make him a healthy person. If you're going into Sharp Eye because you want to eventually subject the people that hurt you to damnatio memoriae, that's not something you're doing to recover from your wounds. Effectively, all it would be is another expression of vengeance.

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The pain can not be undone, but, well, read my Omake for my feelings on how one truly gets revenge.

If we were doing a two-approval voting, I'd definetly pick Sword-Arm as my second choice.

In general, my preferences are something like:

Stranglethorn > Sword-Arm > Dreadnought (Sharp) = Apex >> Dreadnought (Rune King)

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This happens to match my preferences exactly.

If Hunger's wellbeing was truly valued, then we would have looked at options such as Forsaken Mask (which immediately brought back his wife and child) or Balance (stated by Rihaku to be the most psychologically stable). Then there were choices such as Unshattered or Conclusion which restored it. He did not select them. By our choices, Hunger is a man who much like Baenlixnaier - Vengeance, at any cost. What is a body part - or several - compared to that? Is having depth perception going to start healing him?

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I was not part of this quest then, so could not advocate for that.

But frankly... i don't want just psychological healing. I want Complete healing. In all forms. It is greedy beyond belief, but it is what Hunger is owed.

Hunger should not have to give up anything more to regain all he has lost and more. And I will stick to that refrain so long as I am part of this quest.

 

[Box Lunch]

Alright, so what'd I miss... Hallow's out, no surprise there. Regular calls to mitigate risk but can't turn down the big pluses that only matter if you're recklessly escalating. Not pleasant, but acceptable.

Dreadnought debate, sympathy vs codpiece energy. No real wrong answer, but either way's a commitment to reap the benefits thereof. Rune King can't sleep on magic systems, Sharp of Eye gotta pay their way with depth perception.

Apex: Noun; the top or highest part of something, especially one forming a point. This plan is the opposite of that, all foundation and no weaknesses. For people whose favorite flavor of ice cream is Vanilla.

Zweihander + Thousand Cuts. AKA Muscle Wizard VI, 4ce Unto, El Stats Tres, Murderer's Panoply the Sequel. Striking power that ignores context. Maybe this time we'll pick the option that goes with our playstyle!

Stranglethorn with Vanguard, the Prom King and Queen. Take another stack of Chill, spend a permanent Defining slot on being an intractable douche. Suspiciously good answer to our Geas, keep in mind the swerves are real.

[X] Push in Further
[X] Don't Bring Gisena
[X] Strong Sword-Arm

 

[OctarineShrike]

In a 2 approval voting scenario I'd be going for Rune King and Apex, Sweep the Outskirts and Search for humans, with bringing Gisena.

 

[Byzantine]

It should be noted in 2 approval voting I'd basically be doing everything in my power to stop Rune King from winning. I... really hate the very idea of it. Viscerally.

 

[George]

Alright I'm fully convinced
[X] Dark Abstraction

 

[Rihaku]

Current vote count?

I somewhat resent this comment, because it doesn't feel like it's a good-faith statement; the Hand of Justice in no way involved the loss of a hand/arm, and if they could have been taken in conjunction the Hand of Justice would have in theory been entirely functional with the metaphysical functionality of the Destroyer Halo.

Click to shrink...

The question asked is one of restoration and lesser glory, versus sacrifice and apotheosis. The loss of a mere organ pales in comparison to the sacrifices that the path of Justice would ask of you!

It does not have to do with the ordinary human condition or accepting diminishment within the mundane world. This is not a metaphor for anything that goes on in physical reality. It has much more to do with the central conceit of a Cursebearer itself, of sacrificing - their time, their freedom, their social connections, health etc - in order to become something more. It is not something taken from them, it is something they give in exchange for the strength to matter. A simple transaction.

The associated concepts are not always linked. In this specific option, they are.

 

[Shard]

No, those were psychologically accepting the existing status as the new normal, the new 'whole' form - being maimed, forever bearing the ruination wrought by the Tyrant's hand.

Fuck that.

To tell an amputee that they must accept their disfiguration into their heart instead of undoing it when the possibility is available is both wrong and reprehensible. (Clarification: This isn't an ad hominen attack towards you, just towards the validity of that argument)

Restoration of appendages with which one may once again interact with the world is not 'cosmetic' and it's disingenuous to call it so; it is the incorporation of capabilities previously impossible, pieces of the self ground away by the belt sander of misery which was the war against the Tyrant. To see the world with both eyes once more, to hold the face of a loved one with both hands where before this possibility was forever beyond him, these are absolutely things which can be ascribed towards the improvement of psychological wellness. It posits that the mutilation is a condition to be undone, not a fate to accept.

For a Cursebearer granted the gift of infinite Progression, that is the only true path; there is no accepting the dictates of cruel fate and foul foe. There is only the will of the Cursebearer, and what they would see done. The power born of accepting their diminishment is nothing before the endless growth laid before them on a path from which his feet cannot stray.

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Well, I can tell you that my mother would gladly give up at least some of her limbs to bring my father back from being permanently bedridden. I would personally be willing to give up an eye, ear, leg or hand to not suffer depression. My personal experience is that quite frankly, being unable to have the full physical motion of the human body (or depth perception) doesn't actually matter that much to a complete life. I've seen people with broken legs and they were not suffering greatly during their recovery.

Way more important is the people around us, and our mental well-being. The physical form is by far tertiary to that. And through our choices we have given up mental recovery for Hunger time, after time, after time. And now, all of a sudden, we should now suddenly care about our MC having an extra eye as opposed to having his wife and son back (that we gave up awhile ago at the start of the quest)? Give me a break. This sacrifice is nothing compared to the sacrifices we already voted for implicitly.

We voted for Hunger to become a Tyrant, to become a person whose very existence poisons life itself. We voted for him to give up the chance for recovery, a life with wife and child long thought lost forever. We voted for him to seek power as opposed to laying his scars from the Tyrant to rest (That's what Conclusion does). We voted to get even more power at the risk of life and limb, including that of his companions.

And now, after all that, a single, already lost eye is now relevant?