Guys, I've realized something. I am not certain as to whether my reasoning is correct - either conceptually or, for that matter, meta-mechanically, but - Blood Halo allegedly reinforces the % of survival of our companions.

By Closing the Fist, we'd be merging with Aobaru, who is one of our companions, and the Arete generated by work from the thread would be put, partially, towards his survival (and, since he's in a fusion with Hunger, also reinforce Hunger's odds.) Unless the Maiden can somehow unclose the fist, that means the fusion might have an extreme advantage, even outside of the +All Stats and ISH bonus that everyone is getting so hyped about. Could this be the true power of Chadobaru?
 
He typically does this for any option that isn't currently getting votes or is losing, though. I'm leery of reading too much into that.

I also don't like that +Simping implies that we'll inherit at least some measure of Aobaru's vulnerability to the Maiden's Beauty.

Random thought, Blood Halo also mentioned that "garish clothing" can count as an attack vector. The Maiden closed off communication with us, but she can clearly still perceive us. If we made our armor super garish, could we force her to blind herself like Hunger did, or else take bleed damage from our eyesore of an outfit? That would even the field on that count at least.
Check her description of his new armor. Her eyes bleed after seeing it.
  • Maiden is using same "destroy herself to dodge being destroyed by us" thing TIM did,
Remind me who TIM was?
Damn it, Godhead! Why do you only exist in dead timelines!
Dead timelines only? I knew she was a time traveller, but I missed that detail.
I hereby dub Ceathlynn an objectively terrible person, and have become completely uninterested in ever seeing her counterpart in Hunger's wife if this is the standard for Catherines across the Omniverse.
Now, that's just not fair. The Maiden Who Was Ceathlynn has been warped by the Apocryphal Curse for possibly the same length as the Forebear's Procession.
Her mindset may be bizarre and distasteful, but one should sympathize with such a victim nonetheless. And one shouldn't judge her counterparts too harshly in light of it.
I am the madness at the heart of all things
You're sounding about as badly-off as I remember being. Is there anything I can do to help?
 
Guys, I've realized something. I am not certain as to whether my reasoning is correct - either conceptually or, for that matter, meta-mechanically, but - Blood Halo allegedly reinforces the % of survival of our companions.

By Closing the Fist, we'd be merging with Aobaru, who is one of our companions, and the Arete generated by work from the thread would be put, partially, towards his survival (and, since he's in a fusion with Hunger, also reinforce Hunger's odds.) Unless the Maiden can somehow unclose the fist, that means the fusion might have an extreme advantage, even outside of the +All Stats and ISH bonus that everyone is getting so hyped about. Could this be the true power of Chadobaru?
+Simping is the obvious vulnerability here - we might be turned against ourselves by it.
Still, good catch! I'd say that's a plausible interpretation.
 
Adhoc vote count started by Wolfy on Jul 22, 2022 at 5:20 AM, finished with 82 posts and 35 votes.


Strong lead for Vendetta
 
The Interchangeable Man, yes. He completely demolished Arthur despite our sword both perfectly countering his endless copying and his infinite regen by blowing up his entire body moments before we would swing our sword, and he was even so good that he exploded in exact way to guide our next strike so we never could land a strike on his core by accident.
 
Hunger: have you considered simply not being stupid

The Maiden suffered a critical hit

[X] The Cavalry

Anyway, this update was really cool, shame right now my brain is destroyed from too much vidya. Argument maybe later; just want to fully sunk cost those sweet omake wordcounts for now.
 
Check her description of his new armor. Her eyes bleed after seeing it.

Remind me who TIM was?

Dead timelines only? I knew she was a time traveller, but I missed that detail.

Now, that's just not fair. The Maiden Who Was Ceathlynn has been warped by the Apocryphal Curse for possibly the same length as the Forebear's Procession.
Her mindset may be bizarre and distasteful, but one should sympathize with such a victim nonetheless. And one shouldn't judge her counterparts too harshly in light of it.

You're sounding about as badly-off as I remember being. Is there anything I can do to help?

I absolutely despite Ceathlynn. Normally, I make the odd comment about what I'd do if I won the lottery IRL, but right now I wish I'd won it back when the hiatus started so I could have bought some EFBs specifically meant to screw her over. An upgraded version of Slice Fate to hit him up with rerolls as both a 'screw the Maiden' EFB and an Epilogue booster. Something like Sunset Strike.

'Just as dawn banishes the night, so to does dusk banish the day. The sun may have to be dragged over the horizon, but dragged it is. The normal vulnerability of your Cloak and it's connected enchantments and attributes to light, flame, and daylight is now applied to these powers in turn. No longer may the light of day shelter anyone from your gaze. They are no more protected than you. This applies to everything from Protection to the Realm of Evening being able to shatter it's counterpart's control just as easily as the Realm of Daylight can the extrusion of the RoE Archmage uses.'

Or Eternal Night.

'Night and day should be equals. In fact, night should be the greater of the two. Simply look up at the night sky and you will see the darkness far exceeds the light. Why then should the light have any advantage whatsoever? This state of affairs will not stand. Negate any and all advantages of light, flame, and daylight against the Cloak of Evening, and to a lesser degree weaken their effects on Hunger in general. The night will end when Hunger wills it, or not at all.'

And 4 EFBs into a 100 Arete Praxis I can't talk about because it's a Patreon thing. That would have doubled what we saved up, and added another 70 on top of it, probably enough to hit 100 again since it's been 6.75 months. She'd stand no chance, and I'd be incredibly happy about that.

In the interest of screwing her over, I'm going to generate less salty content.

Okay, so here's my build for my Five Wishes CYOA.

[W] True Immortality.

Need it for Cast Through Time and to take advantage of Growth.

[W] Growth.

As mentioned, combines really, really well with immortality.

[W] Thirteenth Hour.

Being able to effectively stop time is never not a great power, and it can add one twelfth of my timer onto Growth's bonus.

[W] Cast Through Time.

At a full 10 million years, increased to 10.83 by Thirteenth Hour, even divided among 13 Attributes, that's 833,333. More than enough to obliterate the multiverse a dozen times over, not unlike the madness happening in the Quest right now.

[W] Free the Genie. Unlocking a bunch of new Stats is really valuable to me, especially when they'll be well over 800K apiece.
[6] Improvement. Unlock Prowess. Even Prowess 2.5 is a great help in matters of skill. A general skill boost to my writing would be great. With ten million years, I could probably build up entire novels worth of actually good content instead of the meh stuff I push out on occasion. One last burst of Arete probably wouldn't do much at this juncture, but hey, it's better than nothing.
[W] Improvement. Unlock Protection. Attacks on my spirit are essentially the only method to kill me. Countering that will be important.
[W] Improvement. Unlock Charisma. Honestly, I'm probably going to try and find a way to feed this into Protection or Might like Hunger. Regardless, I'll need to work on something to keep myself from pulling a Plenary Brand and striking everyone dumb with ten billion impressions of me seared into their soul.
[W] Improvement. Unlock Magic. Probably the easiest way to do this. Has huge benefits for me, especially as my Intelligence, Wisdom, and Wits rise and it becomes easier to customize it.
[W] Improvement. Unlock Willpower. Yeah, the beginning at least of this build involves killing myself every day to abuse True Immortality for a Numeracy One-style refresh. I don't think I could do that even if I knew I'd be fine, but with an extra 2 Willpower? Probably be alright.
[W] Improvement. Unlock Wits. I'm a slow reader, and being able to process things faster is going to be a huge help. Dien proved how great high Wits can be. While he had an infinite Wits, I think conceptually expanded 800K+ Wits would probably be largely indistinguishable from infinity for most beings below the level of a multiversal entity.
[W] Improvement. Unlock Theft. At the 100K level, I could steal concepts. Memetic Carmen Sandeigo would be an amateur, especially with Prowess bolstering me. I could likely steal powers from any enemies I made, rendering them non-threats if they managed to bypass Charisma and Protection somehow. I wonder if I could turn myself into a Font of Wonder by 'stealing' mystical energy from myself, Protecting myself from the negative consequences without retrieving the energy, and then tossing the energy into the cosmos.

The idea is that I get chucked 10 million years back, and just wait while Growth works on my Attributes until I'm unassailable.
 
Last edited:
As he wound up the return-stroke, Hunger spoke. "I see. I am what you fear you'd become. Fear not. My Rank is not as cruel a yoke as your form. And my wisdom, exceeds yours greatly."

Impertinence. Her throat heaved as if cut, his words themselves opening a wound upon her neck. Her essence spilled out at unnatural pace, but mustering herself she quelled the injury. Keeping it closed was a continuous strain. Modest, compared to the extremes that would be required if she sustained a blow from the blade proper.

Yielding an inch in their contest over reality, she redirected the output to strategically sever the chord of communication between them, removing rhetoric as a vector of attack while retaining her ability to comprehend her foe.
Anyway, I kind of want to draw attention to this. I don't know if Hunger's words were explicitly a supernatural attack or just his gigachad Rank manifesting itself, but the fact that it basically pierced all her defenses and she had to cut herself off from communication is very telling to me. I think more than embodying the ideal and the transcendental and all that; I think she has to. Her very nature is to be above the real; a platonic existence in of itself, but that means that any effective reminders that she is fallible and not beyond reproach causes some sort of critical existence failure, that if you prove the thesis of the Maiden wrong she somehow will cease to exist. Well, that's my idea anyway.

As to which exploits said vulnerability the best, I have no clue. I will think on it more, I guess.
 
Last edited:
Anyway, I kind of want to draw attention to this. I don't know if Hunger's words were explicitly a supernatural attack or just his gigachad Rank manifesting itself, but the fact that it basically pierced all her defenses and she had to cut herself off from communication is very telling to me. I think more than embodying the ideal and the transcendental and all that; I think she has to. Her very nature is to be above the real; a platonic existence in of itself, but that means that any effective reminders that she is fallible and not beyond reproach causes some sort of critical existence failure, that if you prove the thesis of the Maiden wrong she somehow will cease to exist. Well, that's my idea anyway.
The following is one of the effects of Blood Halo:
*The wielder's attacks cleave the blood and essence of his foe. Wounds he inflicts are ever-bleeding and unhealable, amplifying themselves over time. Damage so inflicted applies even if the target would not be harmed by bleeding, or lacks blood to spill. The wielder may classify any form of offensive interaction - insults, scheming, wearing garish clothing - as an attack utilizing his full physical parameters.
Accordingly, other ways Hunger can inflict physical attacks on the Maiden which the Maiden will have to cut off conceptually, and cannot dodge by self-explosion because... they aren't... physical attacks, include:
make an Angry face at her (this isn't rhetoric or communication)
stick out his tongue at her (likewise)
inform any of his Allies that the maiden sucks (this is offensive to her reputation)
inform himself that the maiden sucks (this is also offensive to her reputation)
When within an atmosphere, Breathe (this reduces oxygen content in the air, which slightly inhibits the mundane fire that will result from the maidens actions, and make it slightly harder for her to breath if she enters that same atmosphere)
When without an atmosphere, Breathe (this is meant to confuse her, which is offensive to her mental state)
Make any sound (this will require some amount of her attention to grasp, because she severed rhetoric-offensives not speech-comprehension; thus it is offensive to her metaphorical RAM allocation). To save personal mental bandwidth, Hungers Rank can autogenerate realistic-sounding irrelevant statements like a markov chain at minuscule cost.
Retreat to his Sanctum (this is offensive to the maidens plans.)
Return from his Sanctum, moments later (this is offensive to any change of plans she makes afterwards)
having a nice empire (it attacks her resolve)
resurrecting or having resurrected that one guy she was sad about (it attacks her resolve)
producing any quantity of Edeldross (the insult of using a lesser form of her power or whatever something something offensive)
having struck out his own eyes (it implies her so-called "beauty" is so wretched and repulsive as to provoke that response and is an insult, sent along a vector such that the maiden cannot filter away the insult within the bounds of reason without filtering away vital combat information)
make any muscle movement (they are in combat)
sneeze (the maiden might get sick from it)
use that stained glass soul evocation I forgot the name of (using such a poor technique which Hunger already surpassed and probably sacrificed is an insult, which like the eyes cannot be filtered away without filtering away vital combat information)
hold his sword (light might reflect off it into the maidens eyes and harm her vision very very slightly. this is offensive.)
be positioned between the maiden and the Voyaging Realm (this implies he thinks her an evil threat to it who must be kept from them for their own safety, which is offensive though true)
be positioned directly between the maiden and the Voyaging Realm (this keeps the Maiden from seeing the Voyaging Realm, which is pretty, and is therefore offensive)
be positioned not-directly-between-the-maiden-and-the-voyaging-realm (this allows the maiden to see the voyaging realm, which is pretty and therefore distracting and therefore offensive)
boop the maiden on the nose (this is an insult)
...
make this plan (this is scheming, which is valid)


505 words.
 
I'm not sure she physically can tell. Ceathlynn sure couldn't. Remembering that the Shroud that our gilded cage sits upon is the light of an Imprisoner's soul, it may be truly impossible to not recognize its nature as a freedom-destroying construct. It's certainly how Hunger sees it, and no one would know the sins of the Forebear better than himself.

I'm not saying that's how it plays out for the yeomen. I'm saying it's not metaphysically how it works. Cogito ergo Hunger wins LOL.
The real question is if freedom really is the absolute virtue the maiden seems to think it is.

As a society, we give up certain freedoms - the freedom to commit crimes without punishment, the freedom to retain all of our income from the government, the freedom to rule ourselves, etc, in order to create a society that benefits the people as a whole.

In essence, this new society is all Hunger's doing. Even if she protects the Human Sphere after our defeat, she wasn't doing anything for the universe until we essentially forced her to by existing. She doesn't value the quality of life of the people or their lives or anything, just the concept of absolute freedom.

Either the maiden will keep some of the restrictions we have, making her hypocritical, or she will dispel them, making the lives of everyone objectively worse.

The only hint of an argument she has here is the Apocryphal Curse. It's quite ironic that she herself is a manifestation of such.
 
And thus, after all the discussion, I have surmised that though CTF is the In Quest +Simp option, it is Vengeance that acts as the True +Simp option all along.

Come on kids. Hunger chose Vengeance at the start of the quest.

Let him be a Simp once more.
Vengeance is +++ISH Simping. CtF only simps in-universe.


The real question is if freedom really is the absolute virtue the maiden seems to think it is.

As a society, we give up certain freedoms - the freedom to commit crimes without punishment, the freedom to retain all of our income from the government, the freedom to rule ourselves, etc, in order to create a society that benefits the people as a whole.

In essence, this new society is all Hunger's doing. Even if she protects the Human Sphere after our defeat, she wasn't doing anything for the universe until we essentially forced her to by existing. She doesn't value the quality of life of the people or their lives or anything, just the concept of absolute freedom.

Either the maiden will keep some of the restrictions we have, making her hypocritical, or she will dispel them, making the lives of everyone objectively worse.

The only hint of an argument she has here is the Apocryphal Curse. It's quite ironic that she herself is a manifestation of such.
Maiden Simp: The value of freedom is intrinsic and not grounded in any circumstance or change in the universe. Infringing on freedom is bad, regardless of the outcome. Thus, Hunger's very existence is bad because he constrains the freedom of everyone and everything through his Laws. No number of concessions to allowable behavior will placate the Maiden, because the act of Allowing or Forbidding places Hunger in the role of tyrant.

This is quite distinct from the social contract that is entered into by members of the same "power level" on the ISH. The Lord of Stalks that we chose not to depose in threadmark "Pursuit to the Utmost" (page 9 in reader mode) was an unpleasant dictator whose continued survival maintained political balance in the region. But he did not fundamentally restrict the ability of his subjects to conceive of dissent. He could be deposed by other members of society who were willing to endure the ensuing anarchy. Hunger preempts such dissent. Hunger is not within the reach of a coup, no matter how far-reaching.

It misses the point entirely to argue that Hunger's footprint on the Human Sphere is actually quite appealing.



(It's quite interesting to me that the Maiden suggests her Grace would perfectly evade Hunger's laws. That's probably a separate effortpost.)
 
Last edited:

I don't know, I feel like this is reading a lot into the situation. What we know is that the Maiden is anti-tyrant, lots of people in real life with lots of different political views would self describe themselves that way or prize freedom as the highest virtue, but aren't strawman caricatures of anarchists. Edit: Hell, I'm sure you and most people in this thread aren't super pro dictatorship outside of fantasy scenario's or think freedoms cool without being that hardline about it. People can compromise even their most important values because a combination of others outweighs them circumstantially because people are capable of valuing multiple things at once, and can even oppose the most extreme version of something (i.e:Tyranny) without necessarily opposing literally everything vaguely connected to it (i.e: the concept of imposing restriction on behavior)

I'm also not sure we have any evidence she places zero value on human life or happiness, and hasn't spend any time improving those things in the wider multiverse before she got here. If anything recent things Rihaku and her internal monologue make me think the opposite.
 
Last edited:
I mean, clearly the Maiden isn't some cold utilitarian given everything she says, does and represent; but to conclude she values "freedom" most of all is easy to assert when such a term doesn't have defined heuristics, or indeed when such precise definitions are basically completely removed from normal human concerns. That her objections are entirely philosophical doesn't make them illegitimate, but trying to refute them by mentioning the flawed human implementation of the philosophy doesn't matter because she doesn't give a fuck.
 
Last edited:
without necessarily opposing literally everything vaguely connected to it (i.e: the concept of imposing restriction on behavior)
+1

I got a little carried away trying to argue that Hunger's brand of tyranny is qualitatively different from living in a society

R has consistently made Hunger + the Forebear more reasonable than their narrative role of "Tyrant" would suggest. It is reasonable to expect that the Maiden is also essentially reasonable/likable within her context & sphere of influence.
 
Could Sky Veil be used to lessen the amount of effect that the Maiden's Beauty has on us, or on other people, in general? Whether by casting it on our domain, to defend people from her Beauty, or casting it on the Maiden to veil her or something.

Or maybe using Sky Veil on ourselves after we fuse with Aobaru; using Sky Veil to reduce the influence of the memories of being charmed by the Maiden.
 
There have been some prospective blurbs for the presently winning options released on the Patreon! One option will be eliminated sometime tomorrow.
 
Maiden Simp: The value of freedom is intrinsic and not grounded in any circumstance or change in the universe. Infringing on freedom is bad, regardless of the outcome. Thus, Hunger's very existence is bad because he constrains the freedom of everyone and everything through his Laws. No number of concessions to allowable behavior will placate the Maiden, because the act of Allowing or Forbidding places Hunger in the role of tyrant.

This is quite distinct from the social contract that is entered into by members of the same "power level" on the ISH. The Lord of Stalks that we chose not to depose in threadmark "Pursuit to the Utmost" (page 9 in reader mode) was an unpleasant dictator whose continued survival maintained political balance in the region. But he did not fundamentally restrict the ability of his subjects to conceive of dissent. He could be deposed by other members of society who were willing to endure the ensuing anarchy. Hunger preempts such dissent. Hunger is not within the reach of a coup, no matter how far-reaching.

It misses the point entirely to argue that Hunger's footprint on the Human Sphere is actually quite appealing.
I don't know, I feel like this is reading a lot into the situation. What we know is that the Maiden is anti-tyrant, lots of people in real life with lots of different political views would self describe themselves that way or prize freedom as the highest virtue, but aren't strawman caricatures of anarchists. Edit: Hell, I'm sure you and most people in this thread aren't super pro dictatorship outside of fantasy scenario's or think freedoms cool without being that hardline about it. People can compromise even their most important values because a combination of others outweighs them circumstantially because people are capable of valuing multiple things at once, and can even oppose the most extreme version of something (i.e:Tyranny) without necessarily opposing literally everything vaguely connected to it (i.e: the concept of imposing restriction on behavior)

I'm also not sure we have any evidence she places zero value on human life or happiness, and hasn't spend any time improving those things in the wider multiverse before she got here. If anything recent things Rihaku and her internal monologue make me think the opposite.

I mean, clearly the Maiden isn't some cold utilitarian given everything she says, does and represent; but to conclude she values "freedom" most of all is easy to assert when such a term doesn't have defined heuristics, or indeed when such precise definitions are basically completely removed from normal human concerns. That her objections are entirely philosophical doesn't make them illegitimate, but trying to refute them by mentioning the flawed human implementation of the philosophy doesn't matter because she doesn't give a fuck.
My response to all of the above is fairly similar, so I'm going to combine it instead of writing the same thing three times.

I think my personal beliefs tend to align here - that freedom and free will and choice are important.

My main issue is that her specific objections of tyranny while being aware of her blatant hypocrisy -
Nonetheless hypocrisy could be no impediment to victory.
make them illegitimate. So she is allowed to be tyrannic and force people to follow her but Hunger isn't?

This is, I think, my main gripe. What Hunger is doing may not be defensible, but when she is doing the exact same thing, she is insisting that she is purer and better than Hunger.

At this point, Hunger's footprint on the Human Sphere does become applicable, because she is saying that she can do better.
 
... it really feels only the attacks that aren't pure physical help the ones that hit threw insults. What if...and this is stupid.. we turn away from her back exposed, and when she comes in for the kill.. we let rip a legendary fart one so vile so ripe it will echo threw the ages. Again this is a silly idea but I mean at this point it's at least a distraction if we pick vengeance? Essentially hurt the platonic ideal of a Disney Princess with the crude humor that Disney snips out of there "fairy tales" grace weakened by indignity. Sorry if this is to dumb a idea.
 
... it really feels only the attacks that aren't pure physical help the ones that hit threw insults. What if...and this is stupid.. we turn away from her back exposed, and when she comes in for the kill.. we let rip a legendary fart one so vile so ripe it will echo threw the ages. Again this is a silly idea but I mean at this point it's at least a distraction if we pick vengeance? Essentially hurt the platonic ideal of a Disney Princess with the crude humor that Disney snips out of there "fairy tales" grace weakened by indignity. Sorry if this is to dumb a idea.

I. Am so glad. I checked the thread.

By the by, @Aabcehmu would 800K+ in Theft, Prowess, and Protection let me pull weird conceptual shit like 'stealing' my own impossible energy(given your Int, Wits, Willpower, Charisma, and Vitality are all 800K+ as well I would assume even unrefined general energy to be pretty potent stuff, and it should be trivial to make something more refined if I want to) while protecting myself from the negative effects without actually retrieving that energy and tossing it into the wider cosmos. Basically acting akin to a Font of Wonder or the old Wellspring idea Rihaku had?
 
Back
Top