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A Simple Transaction I

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Hm, probably my last pitch for now: provoking Doctor Apocalypse is dangerous. Now, we've seen this kind of option twice before in previous quests. The Final Scion had the opportunity to go EFB on the Forge of the Nameless One, massively empowering his Artifacts at the cost of restricting him to a dozen lest he be Doomed; Seram was offered the Archsmith's Hammer, a diminished form of Skyveil's power. In both cases we were warned about potential conflicts with the 'good' Doctor:
Rihaku said:
*Literally become Skyveil
*Dr. Apocalypse will hate you with the fury of a trillion burning suns
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Rihaku said:
*If Dr. Apocalypse is ever met, he will hate and relentlessly attempt to kill the character. Nothing can stop this.
*This is not a joke. If ever the character is transported to Dr. Apocalypse's world, the character will have to contend with an indestructibly hostile Dr. Apocalypse. For reference, Dr. Apocalypse with prep is capable of going toe-to-toe with the likes of Lex Luthor or Dr. Doom (also with prep).
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Myself and other voters treated this as a meme, a remote possibility at best, included to foster a sense of interconnectedness and continuity between quests. I like those references, but short of dangling the Diagram or the Praxis before characters compatible with those systems, they're not going to override other considerations.

However, there's one small problem here: Hunger has the Apocryphal Curse. We can't just dismiss the chance of provoking a formidable foe, not when it could be classed as an 'interesting' outcome. An Apocalypse and Apocryphal teamup even has alliterative appeal! The Voyaging Realm's a nexus of worlds, there are plenty of pretexts the Curse could use to drop him on us. And with the tech level of the Human Sphere, he would have no end of resources. I don't even want to think about what he could do with an Armament.
 
I don't think Sky Veil is unique or expensive enough to provoke the venerable Doctor's appearance in this world. If the same remark was printed in an EFB blurb, I would find that far more likely, but as is, this just doesn't feel like enough. As I said, I think the chances of meeting him during the next Geas task are far greater. This might be a feature for some though? At least this way the chances of meeting him in the first place rise. The language is far milder than with Archsmith here, too, merely 'provoke' rather than making him an irreconcilable enemy. Which makes sense, it's a lesser similarity with his nemesis. Hell, if Gisena wasn't such a science buff and didn't Nullify magic, I would expect her and Azure to annoy him more.

It also begs the question of how high up on the ISH Apocalypse is. We'll likely become all but immune to Tier 1 stuff by the end of this task, and Apocalypse mostly specialises in science. Not that I expect him to be anything but nightmarishly difficult to defeat, either he'll have/develop some conceptual technology or his universe will disable some portion of our panoply.
 
Juggling incentives e.g. when writing laws, providing arguments so our agents can win debates, setting up ruses des guerres... we want more Manipulation anyway. If our current panoply isn't providing, let's think what will.

First our current items:

Evening Sky: Provides some social power but mostly as charisma with some int and wis options we haven't taken. The main thing is integration and upgrades of magic systems we pick up. So far none of our magic systems are manipulation themed. Once we have some manipulation to play with Edeldross will boost it and maybe we'll get a grace of cunning. Edeldross is the element of Relationships after all. If we pick up something more formal and lawyerly - diagrams or demon binding perhaps - we might get some manipulation boosters from ES. We already have a few magic systems to develop though.

Forebears' Sword. Mostly concerned with direct combat force. The stances offer some wider stats though - the defensive manipulation from G-DS is all we have right now and converting that to general with A-DS is what we have to look forward to. Is there a Genius-Defeating Stance in the F-DS tree?

The Ring Hunger: We aren't going to get manipulation from Blood but the other Domains offer possibilities. Passion includes affecting the passions of others: that could be yet more charisma but it could give manipulation. The themes of War definitely include getting enemies to do what you want without personal persuasion. I feel as though developing the domains is likely the strongest source of manipulation +s in the current panoply.

Then there are the two new panoply slots. All sorts of things could go in them and it very much depends on what we find. I'll just consider some of the themes of other kingly items.
The throne: The big chair before which people come to pay homage. Look at me! Pure charisma.
The sceptre: Derived from the royal mace, a symbol of strength used to splat the heads of rebels and traitors. Redundant with the sword.
The Orb: An image of the world, symbol of breath of rule and universality of authority. Also as the least functional of the royal accoutrements, a symbol of wealth. might have possibilities for lawgiving, economic and grand scale magics.
The Crown: Denotes the person of the king so definite charisma aspects but also the use of the ol' thinkmeats in ruling - intelligence, wisdom, will, and yes, manipulation.
The Royal Seal: The symbol of the ratified law and delegated authority. Rule conducted though the offices of other people requires manipulation.
 
Orm Embar said:
Hm, probably my last pitch for now: provoking Doctor Apocalypse is dangerous. Now, we've seen this kind of option twice before in previous quests. The Final Scion had the opportunity to go EFB on the Forge of the Nameless One, massively empowering his Artifacts at the cost of restricting him to a dozen lest he be Doomed; Seram was offered the Archsmith's Hammer, a diminished form of Skyveil's power. In both cases we were warned about potential conflicts with the 'good' Doctor:


Myself and other voters treated this as a meme, a remote possibility at best, included to foster a sense of interconnectedness and continuity between quests. I like those references, but short of dangling the Diagram or the Praxis before characters compatible with those systems, they're not going to override other considerations.

However, there's one small problem here: Hunger has the Apocryphal Curse. We can't just dismiss the chance of provoking a formidable foe, not when it could be classed as an 'interesting' outcome. An Apocalypse and Apocryphal teamup even has alliterative appeal! The Voyaging Realm's a nexus of worlds, there are plenty of pretexts the Curse could use to drop him on us. And with the tech level of the Human Sphere, he would have no end of resources. I don't even want to think about what he could do with an Armament.
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There is a big difference, however - these two options offer magical crafting, which flies in the face of Apocalypse's everything. Sky Veil, on the other hand, merely suppresses Charisma like his eponymous nemesis. It might raise his hackles, but it wouldn't really provoke him all that much.
 
Isn't there something to be said for quality opponents? Do you guys want an endless stream of Ber, of villains designed to be crass and offensive, but without class?
Imagine an opponent who actually takes the time to learn what makes Hunger tick! Doctor Apocalypse would bring the quality banter. He'd capture Verchlengorge and tie him up on the cosmic rail-lines. He'd contest Hunger's world-spanning charisma with his own genius and his adjunct's force of personality.
Apocalypse would totally throw down in a fishing contest just to prove a point.
 
My problem with Vanquisher Halo is that it basically says "Brainwashing everyone we meet who doesn't have some kind of defense against it is fine. Nothing wrong with that." This is a notable moral failing and also pushes Hunger towards being more arrogant and aloof from ordinary people - they'll all just do what he wants anyway, after all.

Remember that warning from the Accursed, "Take care that you do not become that which you despise"? Automatically hitting everyone we meet with what's essentially a mind control attack is pretty far up the scale of being a Tyrant. Do we want Hunger to be perfectly OK with that?

At least Honing is merely procrastinating rather then giving up entirely.
 
That's a very unfair characterization. The option itself lists many ways in which we could mitigate our effect on others if necessary, and it there would be even more options available should we find a Manipulation artifact. Halo simply embraces the power he's gotten and says it's not actually a problem.

Like, putting hard sensory filters between people isn't hard. It's more work, but it also means we don't need to spend power to mitigate the power we already have. It's still something we can control in the future. We just need to be aware that our Charisma is in of itself a dangerous weapon.
 
[X] Sky Veil
[X] Agents of the Throne

I just want more investment into the Evening Sky, I don't care what form it takes.

I have been too deeply traumatized by the past votes ignoring it.
 
From more analytical perspective, I am not particularly impressed by what Halo does offer. Yes, yes, it does [Stuff] which translates into value, but I am not feeling that we need much of that right now.

Meanwhile, Sky Veil immediately and conveniently deals with an upcoming issue. You just pay Arete and you don't need to worry about our social stat unbalance, which Rihaku likened to having extreme STR with relatively low AGI. To deal with this organically we'd need to find a way to gain truckload of MAN, which is both very expensive, time intensive and not really something we want to focus on anyway.

No annoying stuff means that you can focus on things you actually want to do.
 
In the long run, we do actually want a socially proficient character, having been tasked with conquering and ruling on an interstellar level. I mean, you can claim having too much Charisma causing people to listen to us is unpleasant? But it's much better than the alternative, which if anybody needs a reminder is Tyrant procs. This is the most reliable form of mitigation for it we can acquire and it makes one of our best stats pull triple duty. Cha becomes both Prot & Str as well.

At the risk of repeating myself, the latter improves the Power of Ruin, which is guaranteed to be helpful when demolishing a stronghold. Speccing for that challenge is also 'solving an upcoming issue', one with stakes much higher than Hunger's comfort in social situations. Toppling the Tower in time to suppress the Affliction could save the lives of tens of thousands of people. More Charisma could be the difference between breaking the Tyrant's hold on the populace and failing to incite rebellion.

Basically, Vanquisher's Halo is synergistic with both stats and Rank. What more can we ask for in an option? Have we just become blind to any benefit that doesn't grant immediate, tangible Rank? Because that's going to get old fast. The idea that we don't need strength because our strategic position seems solid is frankly dangerous. We will never have 'enough' power, not until the Apocryphal Curse has been wrestled into hard-won submission over eons of mitigation. Until then, there's no such thing as far enough ahead. Confident, cocky, lazy, dead.
 
Orm Embar said:
In the long run, we do actually want a socially proficient character, having been tasked with conquering and ruling on an interstellar level. I mean, you can claim having too much Charisma causing people to listen to us is unpleasant? But it's much better than the alternative, which if anybody needs a reminder is Tyrant procs. This is the most reliable form of mitigation for it we can acquire and it makes one of our best stats pull triple duty. Cha becomes both Prot & Str as well.

At the risk of repeating myself, the latter improves the Power of Ruin, which is guaranteed to be helpful when demolishing a stronghold. Speccing for that challenge is also 'solving an upcoming issue', one with stakes much higher than Hunger's comfort in social situations. Toppling the Tower in time to suppress the Affliction could save the lives of tens of thousands of people.

Basically, Vanquisher's Halo is synergistic with both stats and Rank. What more can we ask for in an option? Have we just become blind to any benefit that doesn't grant immediate, tangible Rank? Because that's going to get old fast. The idea that we don't need strength or value because our strategic position seems solid is, frankly, dangerous. We will never have 'enough' power, not until the Apocryphal Curse has been wrestled into hard-won submission over eons of mitigation. Until then, there's not such thing as far enough ahead. Confident, cocky, lazy, dead.
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No one is arguing against more charismatic character, we are going to have that whatever path we take. What we are arguing for is to not cripple Hunger's ability to have normal character interactions because he mind fucks everyone with his mere presence. it might get tiring fast! It's also too much of an sacrifice for mere power for my taste. If it was necessary, I would have taken it but it's not! There is an pretty interesting alternative present and, It's not like Skyviel doesn't give Hunger more power either, it improves Protection and agility while giving us greater versatility in the long run. We should look further in the future too.

Edit: Anyway, going to sleep.

Edit: 2: @Tyrant_Rayne, I am offering two vetoless marker for Skyviel. If you except my offer I will put them on signature tomorrow.
 
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Rihaku said:
[ ] Sky Veil [7 Arete] - Just as the sky emblazons one's majesty, so too can it do the inverse, serving as a curtain drawn against the solar blaze of superhuman will. In addition to allowing the wearer to voluntarily decrease his Charisma +s in increments of 25% (without affecting associated Attributes like Protection from Vigor Itself! A rare trait), it also increases Protection by +++++ and AGI by ++. Allows the Evening Sky to disguise its appearance, taking on the semblance of the morning or noonday sky, or even of an ordinary cloak - much as it may despise such diminishment. Unlocks stealth- and disguise-based Advancements, including Conjunctional effects with Aeira.

*With the power of disguise comes the power, to scam...
*May provoke a certain individual. But you can probably take him. Right?
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This provides very little combat benefits for its price of 2 picks and 7 Arete. That said, if we are concerned about the risks of our unleashed charisma, then this is the only option that immediately and permanently solve the problem. It would also unlock the stealth and disguise-based Advancement, which certainly has its appeal, having an option which isn't fighting is probably very good from the perspective of Not Dying.
Rihaku said:
[ ] Vanquisher Halo [7 Arete] - Superhuman Charisma isn't actually a problem. One can always introduce hard sensory filters like dense Shadowcord or literal fortress walls between oneself and those one does not wish to affect, especially given skillful intermediaries such as the Princess Regent. No, better to specialize, become the mailed fist to her velvet glove, especially when venturing into a realm of mythic war. Req. Triumphal Gleam. +20% Rank gain, +++++CHA, Adds your Charisma to your Strength, negates all penalties to Charisma, even self-inflicted ones.

*A Halo-type Advancement. Rare.
*Really strong in fights and removes your Charisma penalty from Uttermost.
*Hunger will abandon the idea of reducing his Charisma. It is a silly idea anyway.
*You can also take an Echo.
*SORD. PRETTY.
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Extremely powerful. +20% Rank, 5 Charisma +s and negating the 30% Charisma penalty from amounts to an effective increase of 16.3 to our Charisma and then you add all of our Charisma to our Strength... Oh, and we get an additional Echo too. What an absolutely insane advancement. It does stop us from mitigating the effects of our Charisma with a Sky Veil-like effect, though.
Rihaku said:
[ ] Honing [2 Arete] - The ability to voluntarily reduce one's Charisma can be pursued after the Opalescent Tower falls. In the meantime the priority must be combat strength, which Honing excels at for cheap. And it'll unlock further Blood Advancements!

*Haven't you delayed this long enough?
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It's cheap, it's good, it unlocks further Blood Advancements. What's not to like?
Rihaku said:
[ ] Without Form - Elementalists will be free to use their powers as desired, though violations of the law will be prosecuted to its full extent. Voluntary training and advisory bodies will exist for Elementalists, with a certificate of completed training privileging access to many Elementalist-only perks such as advanced commission into the military, favorable insurance rates for contracting work performed via Elementalism, authorization to use one's Element as a mercenary or privateer, and so on and so forth. Training will emphasize the responsible usage of power and the delicacy of the balance by which Elementalists exist within, and are supported by, the society around them.

The administration of these training programs, the dispensation of Elementalist-related benefits, the organization of elite Elementalist-only special forces, and the protection of Elementalism-related rights shall be directly overseen by the Crown Office, headed by those officials demonstrating both exceptional competence and loyalty to throne.

*Somewhat risky, but social pressure and incentives can do most of the work of a policy, so long as the culture supports it. 'Not being destroyed by a rogue Elementalist' is a great incentive for people to support a culture of care towards these immense powers.
*Slightly increases occurrence rate of Super Elite-tier Elementalists compare to Aobaru in potential.
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The most idealistic choice and slightly increases the occurence rate of Super Elite-tier Elementalists, who are the one that matters the most, given the exponential (and sometime super-exponential) nature of power levels in the Rihaku-verse. It it is somewhat risky, though.
Rihaku said:
[ ] Agents of the Throne - There will be one clear delineation between those Elementalists who are trained, evaluated, and eventually accepted as Agents of the Throne and those who are not. Agents receive all Elementalist-specific perks as well as further honing by the most skilled of Elementalist trainers, and are actively placed in an environment emphasizing performance, mental stability, and loyalty to the throne.

Non-Agents are free to use their powers for commercial purposes but not towards violent ends, as per a much more forgiving version of Regimentation, below. Powerful and useful Elementalists will be strongly incentivized, though not required, to join the ranks of the Agents. Education and social policy will be structured so that the position of Agent is highly desired and prestigious.

*Fairly safe and personally beneficial to Hunger. You may come up with a different title than Agent if desired.
*Highly increases production of Elite-tier Elementalists capable of performing independent missions.
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Less idealistic but fairly safe and beneficial to us. Highly increases the production of Elite-tier Elementalists, who aren't nearly as good as the Super Elite-tier, but the bonus is large insted of being slight, like the bonus for Without Form.

[X] Aabcehmu
 
Urgh, sleeping soon and it looks like Honing isn't very likely to win as voting positions calcify. Well, I'd prefer Halo over Skyveil, so let's change votes tactically for now:

[X] Vanquisher Halo
 
Where's my Aeira option?? No best girl, no SORD... what am I even supposed to vote for? Iunno, freedom is fine too I guess

[X] Vanquisher Halo [7 Arete]
[X] Without Form
 
Orm Embar said:
In the long run, we do actually want a socially proficient character,
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We already have socially proficient character, and our social will only grow as we acquire more Rank, Charisma and powers that help with social. Our growth curve currently looks to be something like OaF/ADS/Pillars, all of which directly increase our Social in a certain way.

Going back to farm Manipulation would be downright wasteful at this point. That means that we need to deal with our overwhelming Social directly, and right now we have perfect opportunity to do so.

Like, this is same thing we did in EFB. At some point it becomes less about gaining more power and more about making sure that your win is absolute. We don't need power right now; as such, closing off a potential avenue of complications offers much more value than just more stuff.
 
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Seeing Honing losing make me sad. If we were to choose between Skyveil and Halo I would prefer to go all in on Charisma.
[X] Vanquisher Halo
 
The defensive synergy of Halo and A-DS would be pretty sweet. Also, whatever Rank we get from Crown, we haven't got it yet so if we take Halo now that +20% should apply.

I still prefer Honing though. Combat intelligence is very valuable and I want to get OaF before the Tower.
 
The arguments about investing in Manipulation don't really strike me as persuasive. That we'll need Manipulation is indisputable, but there's a difference between taking some for our conquering/government needs and going all-in on it. Not only do we have few sources of +Man among our Panoply, making it keep up with our Charisma would demand an enormous investment thanks to Silver Evening's Cha bonus. Personally I'm not ready to put that much into Man just to deal with this problem.
 
DkArthas said:
No one is arguing against more charismatic character, we are going to have that whatever path we take. What we are arguing for is to not cripple Hunger's ability to have normal character interactions because he mind fucks everyone with his mere presence. it might get tiring fast! It's also too much of an sacrifice for mere power for my taste. If it was necessary, I would have taken it but it's not! There is an pretty interesting alternative present and, It's not like Skyviel doesn't give Hunger more power either, it improves Protection and agility while giving us greater versatility in the long run. We should look further in the future too.

Edit: Anyway, going to sleep.

Edit: 2: @Tyrant_Rayne, I am offering two vetoless marker for Skyviel. If you except my offer I will put them on signature tomorrow.
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Deal. The Pact is sealed.

[X] Sky Veil
[X] Agents of the Throne
 
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