Aabcehmu
Confusion as a Natural State of Being
- Location
- Aurora, CO
- Pronouns
- Any/All
I think this might actually not be true. IIRC Trinity and Triple Blade are mutually exclusive.
A Simple Transaction I
- Thread starter Rihaku
- Start date
- Original
- Location
- Canada
In the sense that difference in Ranks become proportionally twice as important after Rank 8, yes.
That... doesn't seem like a conservative estimate or even a reasonable one to me at all. As valuable as Rank is, it's not everything and post Temple Hunger was so incredibly superior to pre-Temple Hunger in almost every possible respect, it's not even funny.
That argument also seems to assume that Rihaku did not account for our possible growth paths when assessing the danger involved in this adventure. A challenge that can be trivialized by taking a single EFB is, by definition, not remotely close to being as dangerous as the Temple was. I wish that was all we had needed to do to deal with the Temple...
I'm not assuming that. I just think that given that that's the worse case scenario, and how ridiculously terrible that would be, that we should absolutely strive to minimize risks at every opportunity and not hubristically think that we just need to pick a single EFB and then we'll be absolutely safe. Something does not need to come even remotely close to the level of danger that the Temple represented to be terribly, terribly dangerous.
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And be happy and positive?! Fuck that!
ImperatorV
The Laughing One
- Location
- The Voyaging Realm
This is possibly the biggest endorsement being happy and positive could get. I feel bad about my earlier actions now. If Change+Crown wins I will still participate in the thread to my normal levels.
Zampano
🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈
- Location
- Simping for DSB
Honing would be cool, but I'm not sure your sales pitch is entirely accurate.
First, the Blade EFB might already be locked out by Trinity. Second, if it isn't locked out already, then it won't be locked out by Crown. (Are we even certain that there's a special advancement for Saber and Orb?)
That said, Honing would indeed be awesome. Would it be more awesome than a .5 Rank boost?
I mean I feel bad about shit talking MAEG gang in the new "Gangs of AST with a pinch of SALT" but I still did it. Being happy means less SALT, less SALT means less omake generation. Ergo -> More SALT, more Arete
QED
Probably, but in the update where we had ADS it did not say it will break trinity. I am pretty sure it does but we have to ask Rihaku to be certain
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ImperatorV
The Laughing One
- Location
- The Voyaging Realm
Eh, when I'm upset I tend to post less, not more. My biggest Omake contributions tend to be when fighting for an option I really like that's close to winning, or when I feel a great sense of community (the Praxis Omakestorm is a good example of this).
For the most part though, I don't write Omakes. I do a lot of effortposting on vote analysis and arguments though, which also counts but it's harder to measure then Omake wordcount.
- Location
- a place
I mean, the quotes right there. At High Rank, it only takes a differences of .5 to make a fight overwhelmingly in your favor. It only takes a difference of 1.0 to make defeat night impossible. Crown gives us .5 on it's own. OaF gives us 1.0 base and then 2.0 for anything involving military matters. That enough to trivialize several categories of enemies maybe almost everything in the VR given the info we have on why the HS stopped farming the VR, especially given how hard Rank is to farm for not just us, but everyone else as well.
My understanding of how he frames risk is that he's doing so for Hunger as he is, and possibly including current update choices but im not even sure of that, not a hypothetical hunger who knows how many updates down the road. Take a look at the description of the dangers of the Temple when we first had a chance to choose it versus how, during the EFB picking build vote, how ADS would have allowed us to relatively safely solo the entire Temple Civ. Future growths in power absolutely change the inherent dangers involved in a option.
Also, I think you're getting hung up on it only being a single EFB here. Arete and pick choices involve a lot of factors that make them worth relatively more then others of the same cost, a lot of which depend on our current build. Even the immediate power growth from a single EFB varies incredibly wildly depending on what build it's tacked on. Would you say the immediate growth in power from OaF if it was Hunger's first EFB versus the growth in power it would net him at his current rank level was the same? I feel like the logarithmic nature of almost every kind of power gain for our character is kind of obfuscated if you only take into account arete and pick costs of options rather then what they actually do. It leaves out very important context.
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This is indeed a big factor, Hunger had to spend like mad to get anywhere at Temple start because he was a scrub with almost no base to compound off of, so had to painstakingly build everything up from the bottom. Nowadays a multiplier in the right place goes much further.
OctarineShrike
Avatar of Mandos
Fair enough. I'm not entirely sure but am currently under the impression it's an option.
As for Honing vs Rank Boosts...
1/2 Wits to combat intelligence? We'd probably end up with some fairly nasty in a good way cognitive boosts considering we also have Hungry Vim enhancing our combat Wisdom. I'm not sure if we'd be at Blindsight Vampire level combat intelligence(Blindsight Vampires are utterly ridiculous from a Cognitive standpoint) or not yet but the potential for getting a 10-12(Guesstimate for the value of a 7 Arete Blood Advancement without progression) Arete advancement for the price of 7 means we could be getting a lot more bang for our Arete buck if we spend with less of a setback towards OAF compared to Crown.
Edit: @runeblue360 I realized something, should Guile-Defeating Stance be bolded on our Charsheet/the benefits factored in since we have over 6 rank now?
Edit2: GDS gives us 2 Wisdom before the mental debuffs kick in and we don't seem to have any wisdom on our current sheet.
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The boost is not that great at the moment due to the low base of Wits and Inteligence. ADS should fix that with +5 All Stats. I think you would need something in the triple digits of Wits and Intelligence to end up as those sociopathic vampires(hopefully they have patched out the corner glitch)
OctarineShrike
Avatar of Mandos
@runeblue360 did you catch my bit about the Pluses? I suspect our wits/wisdom/cha plus count to be 13 Cha, 11 Wits, 2 Wisdom once GDS is online
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Directed at the thread in general. Assuming I'm correct/tangentially...
11 Wits means a 5.5 Combat intelligence boost with Honing meaning 9.5 Int for combat purposes, combined with 5 Wisdom given the presence of Hungry Vim.
(Edit: This ignores buffs/condition debuffs)
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Directed at the thread in general. Assuming I'm correct/tangentially...
11 Wits means a 5.5 Combat intelligence boost with Honing meaning 9.5 Int for combat purposes, combined with 5 Wisdom given the presence of Hungry Vim.
(Edit: This ignores buffs/condition debuffs)
Lealope
Not yet invincible
- Pronouns
- She/Her
I don't include the pluses into the baseline stats since it'll make it quite fiddly if we get more and start switching them around. I'll add their relevant stat/rank bonuses next to their descriptions (at least until we get ADS).
OctarineShrike
Avatar of Mandos
I'm feeling mathy again. Let's hope I didn't miss anything.
State of Hunger's Brain
Rihaku describes int and wis as competence stats here, so I'm modeling competence as the sum of intelligence and wisdom. (A Simple Transaction I Original)
Current base mental Stats(Factoring in GDS's mental stat boosts):
Int: 4
Wits: 11
Wisdom: 2(5 in combat given Hungry Vim)
Baseline Competence: 6, 9 in combat
Mental Buffs and Debuffs I'm aware of
Uttermost: -30% to Wisdom
Basic Edeldross Enhancement: 60% to All stats given Silver of Evening/Edeldross Adept
Punctured Soul: -15% To Wits, Wisdom, Int
Mental Stats after buffs/Debuffs:
Int: 4(1.45) = 5.8
Wits: 11(1.45) = 15.95
Wisdom: 2*1.15 = 2.3(noncombat), 5*1.15 = 5.75(Combat)
Competence after Buffs: 8.1 outside combat, 11.55 in combat
Mental Stats after Honing
Honing Blurb for reference:
Mental Stats after Honing:
Int(Noncombat): 4(1.45) = 5.8(Noncombat)
Int(Combat): (4)(1.45) = 5.8+(18.85/2) = 15.225(Combat)
Wits = 13(1.45) = 18.85
Wisdom: 2*1.15 = 2.3(noncombat), 5*1.15 = 5.75(Combat)
Competence after Honing: 8.1 Outside Combat, 20.975 in combat(!?)
That's like a what... 82 percent rounding up competence boost for combat purposes?
State of Hunger's Brain
Rihaku describes int and wis as competence stats here, so I'm modeling competence as the sum of intelligence and wisdom. (A Simple Transaction I Original)
Current base mental Stats(Factoring in GDS's mental stat boosts):
Int: 4
Wits: 11
Wisdom: 2(5 in combat given Hungry Vim)
Baseline Competence: 6, 9 in combat
Mental Buffs and Debuffs I'm aware of
Uttermost: -30% to Wisdom
Basic Edeldross Enhancement: 60% to All stats given Silver of Evening/Edeldross Adept
Punctured Soul: -15% To Wits, Wisdom, Int
Mental Stats after buffs/Debuffs:
Int: 4(1.45) = 5.8
Wits: 11(1.45) = 15.95
Wisdom: 2*1.15 = 2.3(noncombat), 5*1.15 = 5.75(Combat)
Competence after Buffs: 8.1 outside combat, 11.55 in combat
Mental Stats after Honing
Honing Blurb for reference:
Mental Stats after Honing:
Int(Noncombat): 4(1.45) = 5.8(Noncombat)
Int(Combat): (4)(1.45) = 5.8+(18.85/2) = 15.225(Combat)
Wits = 13(1.45) = 18.85
Wisdom: 2*1.15 = 2.3(noncombat), 5*1.15 = 5.75(Combat)
Competence after Honing: 8.1 Outside Combat, 20.975 in combat(!?)
That's like a what... 82 percent rounding up competence boost for combat purposes?
LordOfMurder
Bhaal
- Location
- Australia
Crown gives us more rank than we get out of actually completing the tower quest even if we have stranglethorn, it's not a small power boost that we should pass over. OaF will still be there when we have the arete for it but if we miss this opportunity it will be gone.
Crown wasn't even offered the last time we had a chance to reform civilization so it can't be as common as some people are making out.
Crown wasn't even offered the last time we had a chance to reform civilization so it can't be as common as some people are making out.
In which case, Crown is vastly better option. Going to Blood Rank 9.9 handily beats anything else we could get(other than SJUC) for just 12 Arete. If you argument is that we need more than OfA to beat the temple, then not going Crown is downright incorrect choice.
What the fuck are you on? Difference between Rank 9 and Rank 10 is the difference between Yong Shen and level 15 infinite stats Cultivator. It's downright insane difference.
Both of above were explained more than once, do you people fucking read?
Let's repeat my arguments, in bigger font because people apparently can't read:
- Crown is perfectly safe. Crown+WDS gives us Blood Rank 9.3, which is enough to beat Ber. Argument about "muh risk" is bullshit(even more than usual, yep)
- Above hinges on us somehow not getting Crown+OaF in time, when before everyone was fine assuming we'd get OaF and ADS in time. That's more Arete with less updates before Tower. Argument about "muh not getting in time" is bullshit
- Crown+OaF beats anything we could get(other than SJUC), so there's no point to saving for other shit because nothing is as good. It's 9.9 Rank before anything else, 10+ After Tower and 11 after SJUC. Argument "but we need other stuff" is bullshit
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DkArthas
CAPITAL IS TO BLAME
- Location
- Earth
- Pronouns
- They
We might get another chance at reforming an civilization after killing the Tyrant for all we know. The shinies are infinite when you are playing as an Progression Cursebearer. The important bit is surviving and thus invietably growing!
You assertion about Crown + WDS being enough to beat Ber still sounds as bullshit as ever when rihaku has told us we need once and future to beat him. Perhaps, the problem is people are just not believing your wildly optimistic claim.
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I agree with the argument but just a small correction that we get 9.275 Rank. Even with the hyper scaling of high Rank I think we are safe.
EDIT: Also you should add that it gives immediate power that can be leveraged to survive the Tower
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LordOfMurder
Bhaal
- Location
- Australia
Taking 0.5 rank now is the best way to survive though? 0.5 rank extra for blood powers is an overwhelming difference in strength.
Why gamble on being able to get Crown later when we have a perfect opportunity to take it now?
DkArthas
CAPITAL IS TO BLAME
- Location
- Earth
- Pronouns
- They
The best way to survive is to get Once and Future, not Crown dude. 1.8 Rank > 0.5 Rank. Just S A V E with an option that gives us more time to gather Arete.
- Location
- Brazil
What a surprisingly contentious vote!
Anyway, i can understand the concerns of people over taking Crown, and they are valid. I like it both because of its power(.5 rank is quite significant at this point) and because of it's thematic. I like making Hunger more of a hero, and this means making things right. We have the power to change a society for the better with transhuman intellect, and it's good practice for the eventual future.
The risks are, however, legemitate, but one thing: Not every EFB is made equal, and some EFB are better than others under certain synergies. Once and Future is currently stronger than ADS right now, and OaF is a hybrid type EFB! It's the power of a hybrid build. Like, taking Crown + OaF will likely make us outscale most of the voyaging realm.
Now, i can understand being reluctant towards taking crown. I'm not going to lie, it's greedy, and i wouldn't assume that only the bloodcasting is enough to win, but it's one of these situations where i'm willing to take a uncertain gamble in the name of a narrative that i prefer.
And on top of all that, please, under no circumstances, encourage salt bitternes or bad emotions in thread. This is a place where everyone goes to have fun, deliberally making things more salty for people is just...wrong, in a lot of levels.
Both options are valid, and people have different personal preferences, and i understand that some people have no interest in the political reforms, while i think they might actually be rather interesting, but...try and think on the positive of options? If the character development for Hunger doesn't interest you, maybe simply think on the extra arete that we gain, that we can spend on cool shit.
Anyway, i can understand the concerns of people over taking Crown, and they are valid. I like it both because of its power(.5 rank is quite significant at this point) and because of it's thematic. I like making Hunger more of a hero, and this means making things right. We have the power to change a society for the better with transhuman intellect, and it's good practice for the eventual future.
The risks are, however, legemitate, but one thing: Not every EFB is made equal, and some EFB are better than others under certain synergies. Once and Future is currently stronger than ADS right now, and OaF is a hybrid type EFB! It's the power of a hybrid build. Like, taking Crown + OaF will likely make us outscale most of the voyaging realm.
Now, i can understand being reluctant towards taking crown. I'm not going to lie, it's greedy, and i wouldn't assume that only the bloodcasting is enough to win, but it's one of these situations where i'm willing to take a uncertain gamble in the name of a narrative that i prefer.
And on top of all that, please, under no circumstances, encourage salt bitternes or bad emotions in thread. This is a place where everyone goes to have fun, deliberally making things more salty for people is just...wrong, in a lot of levels.
Both options are valid, and people have different personal preferences, and i understand that some people have no interest in the political reforms, while i think they might actually be rather interesting, but...try and think on the positive of options? If the character development for Hunger doesn't interest you, maybe simply think on the extra arete that we gain, that we can spend on cool shit.
Rihaku told us that we needed Rank 5.7, CP and OaF to utterly and absolutely stomp him.
I'll let you do the math and work out how much Rank is that.
LordOfMurder
Bhaal
- Location
- Australia
In case you haven't noticed we don't have 24 arete at the moment. Plus higher rank means we travel faster through the voyaging realm so taking Crown before leaving actually reduces the time it takes to get to the Tower.