- Location
- Earth
Almost like this is a difficult mission, you mean?
A Rat's Guide to Glory
- Thread starter Naron
- Start date
questioningmeme
Just be yourself
- Location
- River of Light
Every day I'm grateful that we didn't waste Hifumi's favor on the prophet.
I can't imagine how paranoid and worried I'd be if our best shadow boy isn't here to help.
I can't imagine how paranoid and worried I'd be if our best shadow boy isn't here to help.
Remind me, do we need to get it on paper that Jade office will keep their word about sharing their info after dealing with this assassination?
- Location
- Earth
It is off the books, so there is a possibility that Yaling may just say "Thanks and fuck you" afterward. Effectively, Ciel has dirt on them via the Prophet of Yesteryear incident and there is a Hana representative present, so refusing what is a pretty small favour at the end of the day is unlikely unless Yaling harbours some sort of grudge against Ciel in particular.
So... theoretically he could screw Ciel over, but he is really, really unlikely to do that here.
[x] Follow the Prescript
I doubt this will win, but part of me is honestly highly curious what the Prescript intends as the goal. If it happens to align more or less with Ciel's goal? great. but it's a wild card that's extremely likely to be not trusted (as represented by the weighted vote imo.) that could do... well, many things.
I doubt this will win, but part of me is honestly highly curious what the Prescript intends as the goal. If it happens to align more or less with Ciel's goal? great. but it's a wild card that's extremely likely to be not trusted (as represented by the weighted vote imo.) that could do... well, many things.
- Location
- Earth
Anything that tries to interact with the Prescript (e.g. reading it, following it) gets the x0.2 weight. Destroying it is exempt because that falls perfectly in line with Ciel's desires. Keeping it is also exempt because that is basically the default Ciel would do if no other course of action is voted on.
Again, I don't think it's a good idea to interact with the Index in any way, shape or form. Keeping the Prescription just "out of curiosity", under the excuse of "I'm not going to read it now, I'll read it later because it won't affect me yare yare", is not only a bad excuse because it indirectly betrays Ciel's principles about not wanting to have any relationship with them (In addition, it is inherently dishonest to the spirit of the character), but it can also increase the suspicion of our current partners for the future, not to mention the possibility of Prescriptions working like a Schrondinger's cat where observation (where observation in this case is a certain fact or real possibility occurring at any time in the future) changes reality or sets a path.
It is better to destroy the Prescription and not only avoid the risk, but preferably keep Ciel's resolve (and position) on the Index; that they are a bunch of crazies with nothing of value to say.
Destroying the Prescription should be a symbolic act that sends a message. As well as being cathartic for Ciel.
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[X] Plan: Simpleton
Man this vote has got people heated.
Man this vote has got people heated.
I don't follow. Our party has already seen us receive the prescript, and the proxy confirmed we are not with the Index and have no special obligation to follow it. There is nothing more to raise suspicions about beyond the Index showing up in the first place, unless they are operating on a level of 4D paranoia exceeding that of a stereotypical quester. In which case even burning the prescript could be part of the Will of The City to them.
To treat prescripts as Schrodinger's cat doesn't really make sense, the observation part already occurred when the vibrations of the city get written down (measurements from a glorified seismograph) and translated into prescripts. If WoTC is the predictor it is cracked up to be, that's when the cat is determined to have lived or died, not when the prescript is read. Observers in the quantum sense have no requirement to be conscious or living.
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However, Prescriptions are not omnipotent, most of the time they tend to require a set of actions to generate the Steps that lead to certain effects. Many of those effects tend to happen because there is someone fulfilling Prescriptions and punishing those who don't; it's a closed loop where unless the Prescriptions specifically try to screw you over by external means, you're not going to be the one who gets involved unless you've triggered the first domino effect; in the end you may be more or less trapped within the circle of events. Not reading the Prescription and destroying it conditions Ciel to at least in the future not be the one to put the rope around neck himself because engaging in the prophecy (reading it) somehow messed with your mindset to condition the circuit and the paths within it.
Think of mythology and the huge number of self-fulfilling prophecies because someone out of paranoia or other motives tended to plant the seed of their own destruction.
The best way to at least have a cool and calm conscience with such an enemy is to ignore it.
Anyway: there is no point in discussing the subject except for the well-known fact that any relationship with the Index means bad things regardless of any "advantage" that may appear. There are some who prefer to believe in the interpretation that the Prescriptions are absolute and originate from an "almighty god", which is an impossible precog to fight with.
For me? "The Will of the City" is just a glorified calculator.
Anything that involves humans to make it work is, by design, set up to fail.
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questioningmeme
Just be yourself
- Location
- River of Light
You know what this prescript is already causing problems.
[X] Plan: SimpletonV3
-[X] Send Maria and Hifumi to assassinate the Red Lily Gang leader.
-[X] Ciel and Giano support the assassination without joining.
-[X] Get rid of the Prescript.
Get rid of it. I guess it doesn't really matter anyway.
[X] Plan: SimpletonV3
-[X] Send Maria and Hifumi to assassinate the Red Lily Gang leader.
-[X] Ciel and Giano support the assassination without joining.
-[X] Get rid of the Prescript.
Get rid of it. I guess it doesn't really matter anyway.
Just curious, does your plan have any difference from [Plan: No Oracles, no gods. ONLY CROWBAR.] now?
I'm not really interested in following the prescript for immediate advantage or fear. I want to read it after the operation is concluded.
It's clear the Index already has an interest in Ciel, it's part of the origin story and now here. Nothing can eliminate that "relationship", but our agency is not really at risk of being ruined unless we let it or Naron was secretly WoTC all along, as this is a quest and not a Greek tragedy. And Prescripts are certainly willing to ruin you externally without reading a single one, just ask the Thumb in Nest L.
We cannot simultaneously believe the WoTC is an overblown calculator and yet be so fearful of its effects that we say for example plug our ears every time an Index member speaks. The direction of someone who always walks in the opposite direction is as easily controllable as someone who always walks in the same direction.
Since my desired vote seems to not exist anymore:
[X] Plan: Dyad
-[X] Send Maria and Hifumi to assassinate the Red Lily Gang leader.
-[X] Ciel and Giano support the assassination without joining.
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questioningmeme
Just be yourself
- Location
- River of Light
True.
I'll just pull up the tally I suppose.
Hm...I suppose the Crowbar plan is winning regardless. Given that the plan weight is heavily against the prescript surviving this encounter.
I hate the name, but for the sake of not bloating the plans.
[X] Plan: No Oracles, no gods. ONLY CROWBAR.
I kept reading WoTC as Wizards of the Coast and wondering what the heck were you saying lmao
For me, it's less about how WoTC acts as the precog, and more about how Ciel chooses to deal with this... invitation of sorts. Thing about the Index is that it takes away the agency of its proxies just by the nature of its system. It wants them to follow the prescripts regardless of harm to themselves or others, and absolve them of all responsibilities as the Index provides them all of the answers, however tame, brutal or vague they may be.
One thing that is not mentioned so far is that the WoTC chooses its members and proxies. 'Those who have been chosen by the Prescripts will decide whether to become a Proselyte. If they accept it, they will cover their eyes with a blindfold as they serve the role.'
Of course, this doesn't seem to be the case for Ciel here, but it does feel a bit like an initiation of sorts. In which case, I rather not keep or open the thing, even if it is far later. Destroying it is the closest thing to the rejection of the Index that Ciel can do here. Even if the Index pull some BS to retroactively make it so that the action of destroying it triggers some chain of events that the Index wants, at the very least, at this point of time, Ciel is choosing to reject the Index's call in its entirety.
[X] Plan: No Oracles, no gods. ONLY CROWBAR.
I'm personally curious, but Ciel and the Index don't mix, so.
I'm personally curious, but Ciel and the Index don't mix, so.
- Location
- Earth
And this is it for the votes. Closing here.
Apparently, the majority wants to trade favours and have nothing to do with the Prescripts.
While we are at it, I feel I should chip in about the recent argument. From where I stand, all sides have a bit of a point regarding the Prescripts. The Will of the City is by all accounts omniscient within City limits. It is also an utterly alien existence whose exact goals remain unknown and can probably not be defined by a human mind. Made of humans, but not at all human. Personally, and this is separate from what Ciel thinks, I feel that one can not treat the Prescripts as an enemy or a taskmaster. They take a similar spot to a lovecraftian deity, simply existing and being incomprehensible as they follow a logic only they understand.
At the same time I believe making too much of a thing out of the Prescripts' influence means, as mentioned before, that none of Ciel's choices ever mattered and I may as well have written a story instead.
By the way, before anyone asks: your choosing to destroy the Prescript means I am not going to ever reveal what it said
Apparently, the majority wants to trade favours and have nothing to do with the Prescripts.
While we are at it, I feel I should chip in about the recent argument. From where I stand, all sides have a bit of a point regarding the Prescripts. The Will of the City is by all accounts omniscient within City limits. It is also an utterly alien existence whose exact goals remain unknown and can probably not be defined by a human mind. Made of humans, but not at all human. Personally, and this is separate from what Ciel thinks, I feel that one can not treat the Prescripts as an enemy or a taskmaster. They take a similar spot to a lovecraftian deity, simply existing and being incomprehensible as they follow a logic only they understand.
At the same time I believe making too much of a thing out of the Prescripts' influence means, as mentioned before, that none of Ciel's choices ever mattered and I may as well have written a story instead.
By the way, before anyone asks: your choosing to destroy the Prescript means I am not going to ever reveal what it said
questioningmeme
Just be yourself
- Location
- River of Light
That was probably the intention behind the vote anyhow.By the way, before anyone asks: your choosing to destroy the Prescript means I am not going to ever reveal what it said
That's part of what I talked about when I said how the prescripts works better than the Simlurgh or contessa from worm, the two cited have goals and methodology that humans can understand, leading to their omniscience being a blight on the other characters' agency.
The Will of the city, meanwhile, just is, it perpetuates the system, yes, but it has no stated or easily seen goals, and the methodology is too abstract to be a distraction from agency. The strings are there, but besides the index who acknowledge them, everyone else can mostly ignore them, because the strings are too subtle to matter on the level of the world they interact with.
At the end of the day, the reason I said we couldn't win and wanted to just ignore it is because it is the only way to not lose, just don't play, it's still *the thing that was anticipated*, but at least that way Ciel can think they escaped and keep their illusion of agency against the prescripts, doing a little action against the system without going to the (in my eyes) petty measure of destroying the message.
By the way, before anyone asks: your choosing to destroy the Prescript means I am not going to ever reveal what it said
Was there even a predetermined message in the first place?
The best way to simulate omniscient precogs for a non omniscient QM is to chose what they do in response to player stimuli but pretend that *it was the enemy's plan all along*, like here, where choosing to destroy the prescripts means that all they wanted was for others to see us receive it, but if we had opened it with intention to follow it, it would always had been the plan, and same for all actions taken. So by all accounts, it is likely the exact content would be determined buy Ciel's state of mind when opening it, and it may well have been a blank piece of paper here due to our reaction of destroying it.
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Guys, I was rereading the update, and guess what Ciel was going to talk about when the Index appeared? Guess what idea in particular they interrupted? Guess what they tainted our reputation to stop? Well:
Yeah, we done goofed, we *coincidentally* where interrupted right as we were about to talk about the zombies, pretty sure the Prescripts only care about that part.
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So assuming maximum detour we will complete the mission, get directions pointing back to the Thorns hideout, and give the Index 1 day for whatever business it had there. Interesting how we thought the prescript would be about going there, but its purpose may very well be the exact opposite.
What I don't really comprehend is why scouting the area didn't pick up something more striking than the zombies in the first place. Rose was hiding something to be sure, but it doesn't really make sense for her to conceal Thorns hideout if her father went there since she seems to actually care about him being found.
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Probably because Rose was not involved. I still maintain making her know that we knew about her past activities was the actual important part, and that we wasted time by not accepting to do so.
questioningmeme
Just be yourself
- Location
- River of Light
We'll deal with it later. We do have the assassination job right now.
Maybe after this, we can take a detour and check on it again.
Has anyone make a list on what information we obtained on the investigation so far? Having a list would help us understand what we should focus on.
Maybe after this, we can take a detour and check on it again.
Has anyone make a list on what information we obtained on the investigation so far? Having a list would help us understand what we should focus on.