A Rat's Guide to Glory

[Kelasgre]

Having faith is the most irrational and stupid thing a human could have.

But that's also why it's magical. The only real and right way something can be magical in this world.
Having faith and beating the odds without accepting "no" as an initial answer is probably one of the reasons we are still alive as a species.

What does it matter how big our enemy is as long as we have faith? As small as Ciel is, it will one day move mountains.
Even if Ciel loses, as long as he has faith, he can always say he beat the City in spirit. And that's more than anyone could ever say.

To defeat the City is to break the cycle. To beat the City is to have faith where others out of convenience or crushed by their apathy decided it wasn't even worth trying anymore, and therefore, lost it.

So let's beat the City. And let us spit on the false destiny of the Index. Let's destroy everything they stand for.

 

[Nyarky]

That's the part Yan could never manage to see. They were strong, and they believed. But never enough to completely avoid their distortion.

Click to shrink...

If it was real life, I would agree with you, but Yan was against a perfect precog, he could have raged as much as he wanted, he couldn't win, that's what made him distort, yes, but you can't reproach it to him, doing better was never in the cards for him, his life had been decided from the moment he was born in the index.

Even with your explanation, I don't see any trace of *he could have won* in his story, it is a story about the horrors of living in the city, about how you just can't win and the grind will make you a monster even if you try to go against it.

And also, you may remark that I don't even talk about the prescript in the vote I proposed anyway, the vote is written so that Ciel's just go: *forget that prescript* and decide to do something that may advance instead of trying to continue in a quagmire of our own creation.

Sometimes the best way forward is to search for another way

Having faith is the most irrational and stupid thing a human could have.

Click to shrink...

Please do not use the word faith in my presence, that is all.

Not continuing on this one, liable to go ballistic.

 

[SleepMode]

[X] Plan: No Oracles, no gods. ONLY CROWBAR.

The prescripts are the way of many a souls in the City. It's just not Ciel's way.

 

[Kelasgre]

If it was real life, I would agree with you, but Yan was against a perfect precog, he could have raged as much as he wanted, he couldn't win, that's what made him distort, yes, but you can't reproach it to him, doing better was never in the cards for him, his life had been decided from the moment he was born in the index.

Click to shrink...

And yet we live in a capitalist society where our only value is expected to be reduced to what we do, not who we are. Anything that keeps the system intact and the money flowing.

You can either accept it and become a zombie doing what society expects you to do, or you can be part of that small percentage of the population that gets angry and does good things for others, even though in perspective that won't make the system stop.

Winning or losing is not the point. The point is that even if that is a factor, don't lose where it really matters not to lose. There are things that no one could make you do because they go against your morals, and as long as that remains the case, it will always be your victory. And that's something to be proud of.
Even if you die, you will stand your ground.

Even against a perfect precog, I would tell they to fuck off and I not accept his fate. Because to do so would mean that nothing I do matters, it means giving my life to him.

Yan's story is just the old mythological story of men versus gods and prophecies. The only difference between this and the other is that you can decide whether to accept it or not, and that will be something that no amount of power can take away from you. Your individual capacity to believe.

Do you willingly offer yourself to the slave master or do you pull the reins until the last moment? Your decision.

 

[Kelasgre]

The end of the novel 1984 (George Orwell) explains this much better.

Big Brother did not use to kill those who went against him. He destroyed them in spirit. Because they recognized that the only real way to conquer a human is in his heart.

Winston ultimately lost to Big Brother because the methods they used on him ended up making him love them. That he would betray even himself and anything he believes in, in pursuit of that entity (Big Brother). And therefore, no longer being master of his will, because it no longer belonged to him.

 

[Metarite]

I told people that it seemed as if the prescripts wanted us to go see the hideout, look, they are acting against us now that we're refusing.


I give it a 99.999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 (endlessly repeating 9s)% chance it says: "go take care of those fucking zombies already, we'll make sure your mission works if you do and fail if you don't".

Follow the goddamn prescript, it is an absolute certainty we fail the job if we don't, it's what they want.

Edit:

I know this isn't a certain confirmation, but I am still going to count it as a point in the *I told you we should've gone to the hideout* side.

Edit2:

For how I am so certain following the prescripts will make sure we finish this job and not doing it will fail us the job, that's the easiest and strongest incentive a prescript would have for us to follow it, and prescripts knows all.

If we get to Hana with a prescript helping us, that sours the experience for Ciel, and increase then resentment they seems to have been brewing in them for some reason, if we fail because we didn't follow the prescript, same thing, increase resentment towards index and blaming them for our failure, no matter what, we play in their hands.

Don't try to outthink the omniscient thing, just go with it, I prefer to get in Hana than cut Ciel's dream right there.

Alternate:

We could simply go and investigate the zombies now without looking at the prescript first, since the other sources *coincidentally* don't work, I am pretty sure this would lead to us opening the prescript and seeing it says to do what we did, but at least we could pretend it was really Ciel's will and not just blindly following the prescript.

We are against Big Brother version 1000, we can't win anyway, so I'm not trying, just trying to get Ciel to realize their dream, maybe once we're high enough we'll be able to fight, right now it's worthless.

Click to shrink...

God damn, we haven't even open the darn thing yet. It's amazing how you can presume to know so much about the content when we haven't so much as read a word of it.



Anyway, if we are really talking about having Ciel having a choice here, I do think we should read the prescript and then make a decision.

Then again, that could be what the Prescript wants, and the content is just there to instill an idea into Ciel...

Hmm, honestly 50/50 on this. I guess I'll just take the other side of it for now.

[X] Plan: Peek into the Prescript
-[X] Read the contents of the Prescript
-[X] Send Maria and Hifumi to assassinate the Red Lily Gang leader
-[X] Ciel and Giano support the assassination without joining.

Edit: Change of mind

 

[Nyarky]

The problem with Yan (and us there) is that raging against the prescripts is attacking the wrong target.

The Will of the City is just that, the will of the city, how it acts and what it does is just a symptom, a representation of society and their actions.

You want to change the city? Get rid of the Head, there's a reason that's what Lobcorp and Angela are doing, you can't stop the will of the city itself, it is just the consequence of living, the head is the reason, the corporations are the reasons, and you can't change the consequences without going to the root.

Ciel is not strong enough to go against the city right now, not explicitly at least, not in a way that's visible, you want to shun the prescripts? Don't waste energy destroying it, just ignore it, and continue.

Edit:

It's amazing how you can presume to know so much about the content when we haven't so much as read a word of it.

Click to shrink...

There is such a thing as inference, humans are good at it turns out.

We have seen obstacles after obstacles to going the way of following the trail like we are, and we receive a prescript right as we are taking the decision? Of course it is about it, and what decision are we constantly ignoring? Well, you can follow the reasoning from there.

 

[redtrunks2]

the argument of "we should read the prescript because it comes from an omniscent precog" has been bothering me but I only just figured out why. In effect the argument (at least in my understanding of it) boils down to "the will of the city has already decided whether we'll fail or succeed the case and what we choose doesn't matter, so we should just follow the prescript to see the correct answer."

my first issue with this is that despite this being the 'correct choice' it feels utterly out of character for Ciel to even really consider that the prescript would be helping him (or that it's an omniscient precog so it doesn't matter if he chooses it).

My second, and more major, issue with this point of view is that it feels like it very quickly ends up at the point of "none of our votes as players actually mattered, the Will of the City had decided from the start whether Ciel would succeed in his goal" and completely removes any player agency from the quest. And I just have faith in Naron as a QM (both from reading others of his quests as well as seeing him talk about QMing elsewhere) that our choices do matter and will affect the outcome of the quest.

 

[Metarite]

That's why I don't really like to deal with precog nonsense too much. It messes with most sense of agency.

my first issue with this is that despite this being the 'correct choice' it feels utterly out of character for Ciel to even really consider that the prescript would be helping him (or that it's an omniscient precog so it doesn't matter if he chooses it).

Click to shrink...

Actually, you know what, you make a good point. Ciel doesn't need no big I to get their dues, nor do they want any Index 'help'. Best way to not get influenced by it is to just destroy it.

[X] Plan: No Oracles, no gods. ONLY CROWBAR.

 

[Kelasgre]

the argument of "we should read the prescript because it comes from an omniscent precog" has been bothering me but I only just figured out why. In effect the argument (at least in my understanding of it) boils down to "the will of the city has already decided whether we'll fail or succeed the case and what we choose doesn't matter, so we should just follow the prescript to see the correct answer."

Click to shrink...

[X] Plan: No Oracles, no gods. ONLY CROWBAR.

And that is part of the reason why this is being voted on right now.

While Nyarky's idea is not entirely wrong in terms of who we should target, I also believe it is fundamentally incorrect and falls under its own weight.

The Will of the City affect the individual, yes. But they are not the individual.
Their power is great, but we should not think that it is omnipotent or infinite. Ciel had decided before his encounter with the Index that he wanted to be more than the place the City had put him. If he had depended on the "reflection of society," Ciel would never have gotten anywhere because that reflection says that Rats belong where they are.

We begin to change the world from small steps, not getting swept up in the "mood."

If the Will of the City is just the consequence of living, then at least try to make waves in the current. Don't get carried away by it.

To rage against the Prescriptions is not "attacking the wrong target." It is (EGO-selfishly) designed not to be indifferent. It has no purpose other than to keep you upright against the multitude that has surrendered to apathy.

As I said above: anything is better than standing still, no matter how imposing the enemy seems. No matter how impossible things seem to be.

Accepting the Prescript's path means giving them our agency. The idea that it is not worth going against them, because we decided to surrender to the Will of the City.

 

[questioningmeme]

Anyhow.

[X] Plan: Simpleton
-[X] Send Maria and Hifumi to assassinate the Red Lily Gang leader
-[X] Ciel and Giano support the assassination without joining
-[X] Check what the prescript asks

 

[AUnderSave]

[X] Plan: Simpleton

Eh. Why not.

 

[questioningmeme]

I don't get what the big deal is about the prescript. Just read it out so atleast know what the Index is expecting of you.

You don't need to follow it. If it's something stupid we could just throw it in the trash bin. The only way it will bite us is if the Will of the City designates us as its enemy, but in that case, it doesn't matter because it's the fucking Will of the City.

Who knows what specific future precog info we can obtain? Like that one prescript in canon that foretold the future (Some guy will appear at the intersection at noon tomorrow or something).

I think we should be more focused on the other part of our job, you know, our actual job, assassination, what are the plans for that one?

 

[Metarite]

I think it's more about how it affects Ciel? Reading the content means that Ciel has a inkling of following it, however small it might be.

Destroying it is pretty much a rejection of the Index, of any help or cryptic messages they may send.

Then again, there is an argument to be made that Ciel shouldn't let their biases get in the way, and just open it to see what it says. After all, they still do get to make a choice after. Though I'm a bit worried about what it could say to try to make Ciel perform the prescript.

I think we should be more focused on the other part of our job, you know, our actual job, assassination, what are the plans for that one?

Click to shrink...

I don't think we need to worry too much about this right now. Hifumi and Maria will handle the details, so will Giano and Ciel if they support.

 

[questioningmeme]

Then again, there is an argument to be made that Ciel shouldn't let his biases get in the way, and just be open to see what it says. After all, they still do get to make a choice after. However, I'm a bit worried about what it could say to try to make Ciel perform the prescript.

Click to shrink...

There is the danger, but it doesn't matter in the end.

It's just words on a paper. I'm not particularly bothered if we don't read it tbh, but I'm erring on the side of curiosity and reading it anyway.

Who knows, maybe it's something harmless, like tickle Hifumi until he laughs or something, which we can then decline easily because that's mean towards our introverted shadowy friend.

 

[Metarite]

You know, near the end of scene between Moirai and Yan, they talked about how the City Will was born from the wishes of the City inhabitants not wanting to be responsible for their own decisions, rather, they wanted someone else to make their choices for them, and take the responsibility away from them

I don't want that to be the case for Ciel. And I doubt Ciel wants that either. Whatever accomplishments or failures Ciel experiences, it should be on their own terms, with no influence from the Index's prescripts.

I don't care if the Index try to reverse uno with a 'see, you should have done what we said' later down the line. Because right now, at this point, Ciel would have at least tried tier best to avoid the influence of the prescript, we can take any consequences on the chin and deal with it later.

And if we are not gonna do what the prescripts says anyway, I see no reason to even open it. Just set it on fire and soldier on.

 

[questioningmeme]

I see no reason to even open it

Click to shrink...

There's a reason.

Just curiosity. If we are already certain we won't do it, or whatever. There shouldn't be a fear of opening it up.

Perhaps that's because of the way I view it. Just merely opening up that once-secret letter your friend from the desk in front of you throws behind him during a class.

It's not something important.

Better to open it this one and never again, instead of always being afraid of the prescripts like they are some kind of drugs.

Again. They are just words on a piece of paper. They only has as much meaning and as much importance as you would put on them. Whether or not we do it, I want to read it and see what it says regardless.

 

[Metarite]

Honestly, I just didn't want it to come down to reverse psychology, or the prescript being something that we would have done anyway, but now we actually have to weight against it because the Index says so. So I'm just gonna call a curiosity kills the cat here.

 

[questioningmeme]

I personally believe that when dealing with something like the Prescripts, you must keep faith in yourself.

So I believe in Ciel. That they won't be led astray by mere words on a piece of paper. And that the act of trusting in your own actions and beliefs is the way to go.

Not even the prescripts can control one's E.G.O. So long as we keep walking forward with our own path, mere words on paper won't matter.

 

[Metarite]

But if it doesn't matter and we don't intend to be swayed by it, then better to just not give it a chance to do so at all, I think.

Also, Ciel is currently very sensitive to the Index, one way or another, due to their history. So I don't think you should place too much into Ciel being able to keep a level head when it comes to them right now.

 

[questioningmeme]

So I don't think you should place too much into Ciel being able to keep a level head when it comes to them right now.

Click to shrink...

Ah, that is true. Ciel is rather emotionally unstable.

In that case, it is better to be on the safer side. Maybe once Ciel joins Hana, we can read it when Ciel is in a better mindset.

[X] Plan: SimpletonV2
-[X] Send Maria and Hifumi to assassinate the Red Lily Gang leader.
-[X] Ciel and Giano support the assassination without joining.
-[X] Get rid of the Prescript.

 

[Young Pyromancer]

The thing about omniscience is it's not omnipotence. You can't make someone do literally anything, because it takes a hell of a lot of effort devoted to someone to completely rewrite them, and because nurture is only part of things.

Don't just look at it from one side. Whatever you do may be what the prescripts want, but that doesn't mean that you'll do whatever the prescripts want. Take a staunch pacifist, willing to die for their beliefs. If the prescripts were to try to get them to deliberately kill someone tomorrow, could they do it? Probably not, right? Similarly, if being given a prescript isn't going to meaningfully affect your decision-making process, then receiving one isn't going to change your behavior. Full stop. This is why most people don't get prescripts- they wouldn't let it affect them, and so giving them one is useless. That's the true way to fight them: picking the best path is only as good as that path is, so pruning possibilities is an effective weapon.

Actually, the prescript might not be 'for' us. The act of us receiving a prescript may be the point. Yeah, when combined with that mission, it seems that the prescripts want us to be seen interacting with the index. That group probably only existed for us to boost our resume- if they wanted people to be overzealous, they could have just told their regular people to do that, instead of the weird 'predicting the group will overperform and so deliberately low-balling it' thing that we think happened.

 

[Nyarky]

If the Will of the City is just the consequence of living, then at least try to make waves in the current. Don't get carried away by it.

Click to shrink...

That's part of what I want by ignoring the prescript we received though, societal pressure wants you to act *that way* (reading it), so ignore it and live your life without submitting to it.

Destroying it is petty, and, well, destructive, we don't need to bow, but this little piece of paper isn't the part responsible, it's just the message, if you want to do a small thing against it, working on recovering the lost trust we just got thanks to the very public display seems better IMO.

Edit:

I mean, *don't shoot the messenger* is already a saying, I think we can go to *don't shoot the message* too, shoot the reasons for it.

 

[Metarite]

Actually, the prescript might not be 'for' us. The act of us receiving a prescript may be the point. Yeah, when combined with that mission, it seems that the prescripts want us to be seen interacting with the index. That group probably only existed for us to boost our resume- if they wanted people to be overzealous, they could have just told their regular people to do that, instead of the weird 'predicting the group will overperform and so deliberately low-balling it' thing that we think happened.

Click to shrink...

Well, if only the act of receiving it is the whole deal, then there isn't much we can do about that at this point. Though the idea of the Index placing those cultist in the position they were in to try to boost Ciel irks me in a way. Well, at least Ciel and Parvati did most of the work for that job, so no debt to the Index for that.

 

[Zack24]

A small thing to note, which I didn't see was raised, is the fact that the prescripts are simply made to continue the cycle of the suffering in the city, I would even make it a stretch, that the prescripts specifically target people who are making the city a better place, but I'll stick with the facts here.

We were told in ruina that the prescripts are from the will of the city, and the city, made on agony and hardship, betrayal etc., Will return the favor in full and continue perpetuating it, not even wings are free from this, all of them (So far that was shown) having some misery generator.

This may or may not be relevant to the whole discussion of whether to follow the prescript or not, but I just want people to know that it may be perfect precognition or whatever, it's simply made to cause suffering, perhaps even to cityfolk attempting to be a better person.