- Location
- East Coast
...the implied gay lover of Lord Humongous' main enforcer?
A Monument to Man's Arrogance: Arizona to Virgin Earth
- Thread starter ScottishMongol
- Start date
- Original Timeline Supernatural
...the implied gay lover of Lord Humongous' main enforcer?
- Location
- Great Khanate of Scotland
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Burning Baron
This position needs more entrenching.
- Location
- In here, not out there.
Welcome to Arizona. Don't forget the sunscreen.
I honestly don't understand why all you guys are ragging on the concept of smaller, private government, particularly in a scenario where there is an untouched wilderness they can just fuck off to start a settlement if you don't like the rules of where they currently are.
Is it so far fetched for a cowboy to aspire to own his own plot of land with a couple of workers, it is a bit optimistic sure, but not super far fetched. Regarding the commentary on blue collar workers becoming millionaires: plenty of blue collar workers make good money ~40-50k, (truckers, mechanics, construction workers ) and skilled blue collar workers (electricians, welders, machinists, plumbers, roughnecks) certainly much more (~60-100k)than retail workers (usually with much lower costs of living that come with living in places with blue-collar work available), by saving and investing this money rather than spending it frivolously and working overtime , it is certainly possible for them to be millionaires by retirement.
People on this board sometimes act like their prosperity wasn't bought by the backbreaking labor of previous generations toughing it out for decades. All the wealth that the government skims off from was built by the men who had the optimism and the same dream that this guy here has. Your misplaced contempt makes me sick, this is actual privilege on display.
Is it so far fetched for a cowboy to aspire to own his own plot of land with a couple of workers, it is a bit optimistic sure, but not super far fetched. Regarding the commentary on blue collar workers becoming millionaires: plenty of blue collar workers make good money ~40-50k, (truckers, mechanics, construction workers ) and skilled blue collar workers (electricians, welders, machinists, plumbers, roughnecks) certainly much more (~60-100k)than retail workers (usually with much lower costs of living that come with living in places with blue-collar work available), by saving and investing this money rather than spending it frivolously and working overtime , it is certainly possible for them to be millionaires by retirement.
People on this board sometimes act like their prosperity wasn't bought by the backbreaking labor of previous generations toughing it out for decades. All the wealth that the government skims off from was built by the men who had the optimism and the same dream that this guy here has. Your misplaced contempt makes me sick, this is actual privilege on display.
- Location
- Great Khanate of Scotland
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Before you get too upset, note that we are talking about rural landowners in the vein of the Bundy Clan who want a weak government that would otherwise prevent them from claiming as much land as possible in order to increase their own wealth, then justifying it with an ideology which is not entirely applicable to their current economic system.
It's all well and good to have this image of the bold pioneer settling the frontier with nothing but his own hands and the sweat of his brow, but the reality is dirty and messy and requires a lot of resources on the part of a powerful entity, whether it be the government or a large corporation. The Old West was built by the US Army and the national railroad trusts, not by lone gunslingers. Without either of those, you just get neo-Mongols, which is where these guys are gonna be in a generation.
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Zachanassian
Putting the "trans" in Transleithania
- Location
- Crabtown USA
And, we have to remember, these guys wouldn't really survive without the "softies" in Flagstaff and Safford buying their stuff in exchange for fuel and machinery. Otherwise they'd literally be subsistence nomadic herders (which is what they're probably going to be in a generation or two anyway).
Also, Tucson went the way of Phoenix, right? They're all dead.
Also, Tucson went the way of Phoenix, right? They're all dead.
Sol Zagato
senseless brute
Think less old west, and more like the settlers in the old Northwest Territory, only there are no natives to contest with. All these people need is a little organization (ie enough not to kill each other too much) and a market to sell at.
Agreed they're going to morph into Mongols as the techloss hits. Ranching to the max.
Agreed they're going to morph into Mongols as the techloss hits. Ranching to the max.
I think they two of you are seriously ignoring the developments in animal grazing techniques. Why be a nomad and have maybe 60 animals, when you can be settled, and divide a plot with movable fences and easily control 5 times as much without ever needing to move?
Yes, Warrick is underestimating the necessities needed for such a bold move, but its mostly in the personnel needed, and not in materials. While everyone can do a shitty job at woodcutting and iron smelting, you need specialists to build furniture and iron tools. Likewise you need a chemist and a doctor. And maintain the ability to retain those skills for future generations.
But so long as optimism is retained with some planing keeping it in check? They might just pull it off with amazing results.
- Location
- East Coast
Except it's pretty clear that there is no such planning. These people are sneering at the Flagstaff government, while living off of it, and when Flagstaff finds it needs to focus on other things, it's going to get very unpleasant out there.
At least for awhile.
6.2
- Location
- Great Khanate of Scotland
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Sergeant Andrew McMullin is a grizzled, balding veteran, marked with the scars of battle.
Fuck, I miss cigarettes. Alright, ask your questions.
[How did you react after the Emergency Government evacuated?]
Fucking pissed. I'd called up the National Guard like they wanted, we were dug in, keeping the roads open, then all of a sudden they're gone, leaving orders to continue to hold the countryside "in the name of the legitimate government".
[And why didn't you try and link up with anyone else?]
Everything was up in the air, and well, I wasn't the only commanding officer. You had the Army, the Border Patrol, local police, the ranchers' militia groups...everyone had a different idea of where to go first. The local government was already coordinating everything on its own, the forerunner of what would become the "Cochise Government".
He forms air quotes with his fingers.
Some of the officers wanted to recognize Yuma, a few others wanted to recognize the new Northern Government. Two problems with that. The first is that Tucson was smack between us and Yuma, and there were crazed refugees spilling everywhere. We were ordered to hold the countryside, so we did. We could've dug in and waited for Yuma to link up with us, but we didn't expect that to happen, not when Yuma had their own starving hordes to deal with.
Second problem, Safford broke away under their little tinpot dictator, which cut us off from Flagstaff. Same problem there, too, we had all our men on the roadblocks, we couldn't spare any to topple him, and from the way the Northern Governmant's let him sit there, they probably didn't either.
So, yeah, we dug in and held the line. When you think about all the poor bastards we shot or turned back into the desert to die...
He stares off into space for a moment.
...doesn't bear thinking about.
[So what happened next?]
A couple of mayors and sheriffs and big landowners got together and signed the Cochise Treaty. And at that point we had two options: recognize them as our new commanders, or turn around and give them the push and set up something of our own.
He sighs.
Look, being a solider...it meant something, in the Old World. You swore an oath to defend and protect the Constitution. A lot of us...we were from out of state, and a lot more had family in Phoenix or Tucson. A lot made it out. Some didn't.
But there was no United States, and there wasn't even an Arizona. Yuma was claiming to be the state, the Northern Government, the legitimists on the Pacific, even fucking Safford. Morale was rock-bottom. We'd already lost a lot of men, either killed in the fighting or just...
He points at his head and mimes pulling a trigger.
Others...just kind of went AWOL, slipping off into the night. Some of them wound up as bandits, others melted into what few refugee camps we'd managed to set up, or joined up with one rancher or another.
So yeah, nobody felt like playing kingmaker. The remaining commanding officers got together and recognized the Cochise Government, there were flag-raising ceremonies and everything. And then we settled in to...our new home, I guess.
[How did the Cochise Government accommodate your men?]
The started splitting up our units, settling them here and there. Some in the cities, most in the country. Some of them got farms of their own - to rent from the landlords, because that was how they were dividing up the land in those days - others got hired on as ranch hands or guards.
A few stayed behind on the bases, those being the new ones, closer to the border. What we called the military frontier, the line between us and the wasteland. We were reorganized into the Brigades.
He points at a badge on his uniform and smiles sarcastically.
2nd Infantry Brigade, that's us.
So yeah, now if someone wants to work a gun and put in some time, they'll sign on for a year or two and that's about it. A lot of the ones who got settled around have come back to do some service, but we're just not as needed anymore, especially since the die-off in the Corpse City bottomed out. Now you get a handful of raiders a year, more than enough for our rump units to take care of. None of the Brigades numbers more than, say 500 men.
[Is that all the Brigades do?]
Aside from hunt bandits and watch the border? That's about it, just the normal stuff. Except...
He leans forward conspiratorially.
You're probably wondering who gives us our orders, and who pays us, if the Cochise Government is so against taxation, which...
He makes a jerking off motion.
I was never into that sort of thing, but shit. Anyway, because it's in their self interest, a lot of the landowners find it in their hearts to feed us fed and armed. That doesn't cover everything, but our code allows recruits to bring their own gear. Now I didn't like that, but this ain't the Old World, so sometimes you gotta work with what you have.
As for pay...well, sometimes some rancher will send his son to serve, and that's when we get a bit of extra gear, usually something we were worried about running out of. Last time it was five barrels of oil, come quite coincidentally after we promoted a Senator's son.
He rolls his eyes.
So, wow, you're thinking, we're right in their pockets, aren't we? What do they want from us?
I hope you'll forgive me for the local politics here, but about two years back, the Fairchild clan started muscling in on Perkins family land, grazing their cattle there and running off the shepherds. Mister Perkins sent the 3rd Brigade - they were always the most ragtag - twenty-five head of cattle and about a hundred feet of wool and cotton cloth. Then he asks - asks, mind you, no orders here - for the 3rd Brigade to march over and park themselves on Perkins land.
Well, lucky for all involved the Fairchilds backed off, but after that we've been getting...involved in more and more of these little land disputes, and twice now a Brigade has been in a firefight. 1st Infantry, both times, and they were allowed to run off with as many cattle as they could lay their hands on. That was just last month.
Bet they didn't tell you that at the fucking cattle fair.
He sits back, spreading his hand in a gesture of helplessness.
We've become mercenaries. The fucking ranchers pay our upkeep, and shuffle us around to intervene in their private little squabbles over where to graze their fucking cattle.
He shakes his head.
We used to be fucking soldiers, man. We swore an oath an everything, and that used to mean something. We defended people's rights. Now, since the whole...fucking world's ended, we're stuck playing hired gun to a bunch of fucking cowboys.
Sometimes...I wonder if defecting to the Northern Government would have been the smarter option. We all thought that, at the very least. we were defending a little corner of civilization, keeping a few thousand people alive in our piece the state. There was some honor in that, you know? But I didn't know at the time we would've ended up like...this.
Fuck, I miss cigarettes. Alright, ask your questions.
[How did you react after the Emergency Government evacuated?]
Fucking pissed. I'd called up the National Guard like they wanted, we were dug in, keeping the roads open, then all of a sudden they're gone, leaving orders to continue to hold the countryside "in the name of the legitimate government".
[And why didn't you try and link up with anyone else?]
Everything was up in the air, and well, I wasn't the only commanding officer. You had the Army, the Border Patrol, local police, the ranchers' militia groups...everyone had a different idea of where to go first. The local government was already coordinating everything on its own, the forerunner of what would become the "Cochise Government".
He forms air quotes with his fingers.
Some of the officers wanted to recognize Yuma, a few others wanted to recognize the new Northern Government. Two problems with that. The first is that Tucson was smack between us and Yuma, and there were crazed refugees spilling everywhere. We were ordered to hold the countryside, so we did. We could've dug in and waited for Yuma to link up with us, but we didn't expect that to happen, not when Yuma had their own starving hordes to deal with.
Second problem, Safford broke away under their little tinpot dictator, which cut us off from Flagstaff. Same problem there, too, we had all our men on the roadblocks, we couldn't spare any to topple him, and from the way the Northern Governmant's let him sit there, they probably didn't either.
So, yeah, we dug in and held the line. When you think about all the poor bastards we shot or turned back into the desert to die...
He stares off into space for a moment.
...doesn't bear thinking about.
[So what happened next?]
A couple of mayors and sheriffs and big landowners got together and signed the Cochise Treaty. And at that point we had two options: recognize them as our new commanders, or turn around and give them the push and set up something of our own.
He sighs.
Look, being a solider...it meant something, in the Old World. You swore an oath to defend and protect the Constitution. A lot of us...we were from out of state, and a lot more had family in Phoenix or Tucson. A lot made it out. Some didn't.
But there was no United States, and there wasn't even an Arizona. Yuma was claiming to be the state, the Northern Government, the legitimists on the Pacific, even fucking Safford. Morale was rock-bottom. We'd already lost a lot of men, either killed in the fighting or just...
He points at his head and mimes pulling a trigger.
Others...just kind of went AWOL, slipping off into the night. Some of them wound up as bandits, others melted into what few refugee camps we'd managed to set up, or joined up with one rancher or another.
So yeah, nobody felt like playing kingmaker. The remaining commanding officers got together and recognized the Cochise Government, there were flag-raising ceremonies and everything. And then we settled in to...our new home, I guess.
[How did the Cochise Government accommodate your men?]
The started splitting up our units, settling them here and there. Some in the cities, most in the country. Some of them got farms of their own - to rent from the landlords, because that was how they were dividing up the land in those days - others got hired on as ranch hands or guards.
A few stayed behind on the bases, those being the new ones, closer to the border. What we called the military frontier, the line between us and the wasteland. We were reorganized into the Brigades.
He points at a badge on his uniform and smiles sarcastically.
2nd Infantry Brigade, that's us.
So yeah, now if someone wants to work a gun and put in some time, they'll sign on for a year or two and that's about it. A lot of the ones who got settled around have come back to do some service, but we're just not as needed anymore, especially since the die-off in the Corpse City bottomed out. Now you get a handful of raiders a year, more than enough for our rump units to take care of. None of the Brigades numbers more than, say 500 men.
[Is that all the Brigades do?]
Aside from hunt bandits and watch the border? That's about it, just the normal stuff. Except...
He leans forward conspiratorially.
You're probably wondering who gives us our orders, and who pays us, if the Cochise Government is so against taxation, which...
He makes a jerking off motion.
I was never into that sort of thing, but shit. Anyway, because it's in their self interest, a lot of the landowners find it in their hearts to feed us fed and armed. That doesn't cover everything, but our code allows recruits to bring their own gear. Now I didn't like that, but this ain't the Old World, so sometimes you gotta work with what you have.
As for pay...well, sometimes some rancher will send his son to serve, and that's when we get a bit of extra gear, usually something we were worried about running out of. Last time it was five barrels of oil, come quite coincidentally after we promoted a Senator's son.
He rolls his eyes.
So, wow, you're thinking, we're right in their pockets, aren't we? What do they want from us?
I hope you'll forgive me for the local politics here, but about two years back, the Fairchild clan started muscling in on Perkins family land, grazing their cattle there and running off the shepherds. Mister Perkins sent the 3rd Brigade - they were always the most ragtag - twenty-five head of cattle and about a hundred feet of wool and cotton cloth. Then he asks - asks, mind you, no orders here - for the 3rd Brigade to march over and park themselves on Perkins land.
Well, lucky for all involved the Fairchilds backed off, but after that we've been getting...involved in more and more of these little land disputes, and twice now a Brigade has been in a firefight. 1st Infantry, both times, and they were allowed to run off with as many cattle as they could lay their hands on. That was just last month.
Bet they didn't tell you that at the fucking cattle fair.
He sits back, spreading his hand in a gesture of helplessness.
We've become mercenaries. The fucking ranchers pay our upkeep, and shuffle us around to intervene in their private little squabbles over where to graze their fucking cattle.
He shakes his head.
We used to be fucking soldiers, man. We swore an oath an everything, and that used to mean something. We defended people's rights. Now, since the whole...fucking world's ended, we're stuck playing hired gun to a bunch of fucking cowboys.
Sometimes...I wonder if defecting to the Northern Government would have been the smarter option. We all thought that, at the very least. we were defending a little corner of civilization, keeping a few thousand people alive in our piece the state. There was some honor in that, you know? But I didn't know at the time we would've ended up like...this.
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- Location
- United States
Man, the 'Cochise Government' is really just as fucked as the Legitimists. It's just some crappy form of feudalism and anarchy with MERICA slathered on. And now there's a bunch of army units running around, complete with angry and disillusioned old world vets. A situation like that can't last, someone's gonna declare themselves king, or someone's gonna play kingmaker.
- Location
- United States
Yuma's going to end in revolution, and from there ... who knows. Maybe things'll turn out okay. This? This place is gonna turn into a hellhole once things completely break down.
Zachanassian
Putting the "trans" in Transleithania
- Location
- Crabtown USA
From discussions elsewhere it's been hinted that none of the states we've met so far are all that durable in the long term, but I think it's fair to say that the Cochise government will be one of the first to fall to warlordism and banditry. Sounds like they've barely got a handle on things as it is.
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
I'd gotten the sense that the Northern Government would muddle through, left to its own devices.
- Location
- East Coast
The Northern Government will have problems, but it's actually doing the things you need to do to build a state.
Everyone else is in essence coasting on inertia while hoping in their heart of hearts that magic keeps the inevitable from happening.
It probably won't.
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- Location
- Great Khanate of Scotland
- Pronouns
- She/Her
"Mercenaries and auxiliaries are useless and dangerous; and if one holds his state based on these arms, he will stand neither firm nor safe; for they are disunited, ambitious and without discipline, unfaithful, valiant before friends, cowardly before enemies; they have neither the fear of God nor fidelity to men, and destruction is deferred only so long as the attack is; for in peace one is robbed by them, and in war by the enemy. The fact is, they have no other attraction or reason for keeping the field than a trifle of stipend, which is not sufficient to make them willing to die for you."
Everyone's lying to themselves about their situations to some extent.
Yuma thinks they'll still be the last man standing and it's just a matter of time before everyone recognizes them[1], while also suffering under the delusion that they're a functioning state under martial law instead of, say, an army with a country.
The Government-in-Exile either thinks the same thing, which would make them even more delusional, or they think they can dig in and keep their little feudal state running with them on top. Bullhead City thinks they have a chance in hell of staying independent. The Cochise Government thinks they're not a failed state.
Even the Northern Government isn't innocent of this - they still think, deep down, that they're the legitimate government of the State of Arizona, and one way or another they'll make everyone else recognize it. Of course, they will probably never have boots on the Pacific, and as for pinning down the neo-nomads...yeah, ask China how that went.
Only Safford is really aware they're running on borrowed time, and they all expect to be snapped up by the Northern Government.
[1] Presumably everyone else will realize they were...mistaken? "Whoops, turns out you are the legitimate government after all! Silly us!"
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- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
I'd be extremely hesitant about making that comparison.
The US beat the Comanche, eventually, because their superiority in firepower meant they were able to kill Comanche herds. It would be a fight, but my money's on the Northern Government, given that Flagstaff has its own munitions works (EDIT: and enough firepower to save Custer just, like, lying around in houses)
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- Location
- East Coast
Oh, the Northern Government is most assuredly not going to continue in quite the shape they are now. But there's a good chance of something durable coming into being there, something that can trace its roots fairly straight to Flagstaff.
And don't overestimate the nomads. If China's your example, well, then nomads are like every gambler ever in a casino. They have good times, they have bad times, they have the occasional excellent times--they may even every now and then break the bank, but in the end, the house always wins.
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bookwyrm
Doom of Public Libraries
- Location
- Wichita, Kansas
Honestly pushing the Neo-nomads from "the range they can plausibly project power and influence" to "the range in which they are outside the government's own reach" is as good as actual conquest in terms of how much damage the techno-huns can now actually inflict on the settlers.
- Location
- East Coast
I mean realistically, the techno-Huns are going to hit the same wall everyone else is a bit earlier. After which they either switch to something a little more low-tech, or... well, discover how merciless nature can actually be to people who don't respect it. Something I've no doubt they've been ranting about in their little drum circles.
- Location
- Great Khanate of Scotland
- Pronouns
- She/Her
You know what, that's very true. Obviously in a stand-up fight the nomads won't be any more than a nuisance to an actual government, but with the whole Virgin North America to roam around in, the nomads can afford to pick up stakes and move out past the reach of government control...and then do it again in another decade...and again...and again...
And yeah, the Northern Government is going to be around for a while. If anything, they'll have to grapple with being a flawed democracy while avoiding getting bogged down in imperialistic wars.
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Ooooh, one of Machiavelli's less memetically pervasive quotes!
As for the update: I really feel for the poor bastard.
EDIT: As I understand it, North America seems to be lacking in megafauna, yes?
Are there any other major oddities about the world outside Arizona that people have noticed?
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