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A Harry Potter Quest: He who was not

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SuperSonicSound said:
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A Harry Potter Quest: He who was not

Some of you may know me from my other Quest (Rien ne va plus – A Marvel based quest you should...
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It won.
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Nvm, then your right. Got myself mixed up there.

But DADA isn't the end all be all in regards to dueling. Transfiguration and Charms have a place there too.

Also, while you are here, what are you going to do if we fail in passing the DC for upping Intellect again? Would you make another attempt at it?
 
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ShyGuy said:
Nvm, then your right. Got myself mixed up there.

But DADA isn't the end all be all in regards to dueling. Transfiguration and Charms have a place there too.

Also, while you are here, what are you going to do if we fail in passing the DC for upping Intellect (again)? Would you make another attempt at it?
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I'll continue trying to bump int and cre until the DC is worse than a 50/50 chance. Bad luck doesn't invalidate the reasoning for taking actions. That said if it keeps happening I'll move away from it.

DADA isn't the end all and be all in regards to duelling but it does seem to be the biggest determinant, but our actions in that regards are almost done. The big push was to get Protego Deep understanding and we'll have it unless we get super unlucky.. then our focus can move away.
 
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SuperSonicSound said:
I'll continue trying to bump int and cre until the DC is worse than a 50/50 chance. Bad luck doesn't invalidate the reasoning for taking actions.
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Spending 4 actions to raise an attribute by 1 point when we could have learned more than 2 spells with them instead or upped Skills with them would actually be a pretty good reasoning by itself. But I suppose that question doesn't matter until we actually see the rolls and if we pass or not.
 
ShyGuy said:
Spending 4 actions to raise an attribute by 1 point when we could have learned more than 2 spells with them instead or upped Skills with them would actually be a pretty good reasoning by itself. But I suppose that question doesn't matter until we actually see the rolls and if we pass or not.
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You're arguing as if the same isn't possible with spells. We need to roll above 40 to get int up a point. Imagine we tried to learn 150 DC spell, at 40 a roll it's likely that it would take 4 actions.
 
SuperSonicSound said:
You're arguing as if the same isn't possible with spells. We need to roll above 40 to get int up a point. Imagine we tried to learn 150 DC spell, at 40 a roll it's likely that it would take 4 actions.
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That is because it isn't the same. With spells, you make progress because even if you don't beat the DC, as you still lower the DC by what you rolled. So progress is still made even on an bad/average roll. The same isn't true for attribute training. If you don't beat the DC, you don't make any progress at all, nor does it lower the DC on the next attempt.

Waffle said:
Overall I like the other plan more but the Hogsmeade action is an issue I can't get over.
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I'm sorry you feel that way. I originally had us doing the Ancient Runes Club action. But that was before the QM informed us that Jacob wouldn't enjoy doing social actions this turn.
 
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ShyGuy said:
The Dreams of Old isn't exploration, it is learning about our past. Runes Club is more hanging out with friends with a bit of exploration thrown in, but nothing that truly takes your breath away. The true exploration I'm talking about is the bit of Indiana Jones type stuff that we had a taste of early on in the beginning of the quest.
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My point was that we haven't had only chapters full of "and than he trains X", but a lot of other stuff as well.
And I guess "true exploration" is a matter of taste, and so I wont argue it.

ShyGuy said:
That is because it isn't the same. With spells, you make progress because even if you don't beat the DC, you still lower it by what you rolled. So progress is still made even on an bad/average roll. The same isn't true for attribute training. If you don't beat the DC, you don't make any progress at all, nor does it lower the DC on the next attempt.
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While yes, there is a difference, it's not the case that we're running into a sunk cost fallacy here, far as I can see. The mechanics are pretty clear: it's advantageous to roll for attributes, as long as it's more likely to succeed than not, since level ups are pretty scarce. Intelligence is the most relevant attribute. I guess we could just say "fuck the mechanics" and ignore the relevance of the attributes, but those are also something I, and I imagine several others as well, do enjoy.
Yes, we are accumulating opportunity costs, but that's bad luck, not bad decisions, in my opinion. And reasoning that we could have used the actions somewhere else feels a bit like arguing after the fact. It was more likely that we'd spent one action on it.
 
Vote is still open. Tally:
Adhoc vote count started by Nando on Oct 6, 2020 at 10:10 AM, finished with 181 posts and 38 votes.
  • [X] Plan This train has no brakes v4
    -[X] Train Intelligence
    -[X] Train Creativity
    -[X] Train Constitution
    -[X] DADA x2 (if DADA training fails skip protego)
    -[X] Spell learning x3 (Protego deep understanding, Focillo, Draconifors, Expecto Patronum)
    -[X] Potion learning x2 (Wideye Potion)
    [X] Plan Empathetic Adventures V3
    -[X] Break through your Horizon I – Hogwarts is built in a valley area — surrounding mountains are part of the landscape. You had always wondered about them, because they were your daily horizon. Usually there would not have been enough time for you to get there, wander around to explore the lands and come back in time for curfew. Having access to a broom would have helped you, but now that you had secret exits out of Hogwarts… the horizon was not your limit anymore. Use the unknown passageway in the north end of the castle. (Takes 3 Actions, can't be taken in the same month as Twenty Thousand Leagues Under the Sea and What hides behind trees)
    -[X] Business School of Hogsmeade (Multiple Actions on this count as multiple rolls stacking) – This is the first year, in which you can go to Hogsmeade. Good that you've been planning for this since first year: Buy Books, Ingredients, Joke Shop Articles, Instruments and other things. Go and look, if you can make some money by buying things for first and second years. Roll for how many are interested and then for how much they want to spend. Take 15% as a fee.
    -[X] 8x Personal actions
    --[X]1x Training Empathy
    --[X]1x Train Intelligence
    --[X]1x Training Potions (Hits P-)
    --[X]1x Training Alchemy (Hits D-)
    --[X]4x Spell learning (Focillo, Draconifors, Glacius, Diffindo)
    [X] These are for Exploration Only
    [X] These are for Exploration Only – Use these boots for Emergencies and during your Exploration Activities only. While you are of no particular mind to keep their existence secret, you don't want everyone to know them either and it might be useful to have a set of trump card in place for a later time.
    [X] I don't understand the Question – These boots are now your everyday boots. You will wear them at all times and use them freely. There should be no rules against this in place in the castle, because quite frankly, an item like this has never existed. Use the boots in any kind or form to have fun, for duelling club and whatever you have in mind. No further votes for when to use or not. The sky is yours to play with.
    [X] I don't understand the Question
    [X] First work hard, then play hard
    -[X] Do Something! - Look for Padma and Moraq and ask if they are interested in a small study group. Maybe some of their social skills will rub off on you.
    -[X] Do Something! - Look for Tracy and ask if she's interested in private dueling sessions
    -[X] Runes Club Research
    -[X] In Search of New Spells - Water-Making Spell (Aguamenti) good against fire and a nice combo with Glacius
    -[X] Do your research - Draconifors (Needed for exams at the end of the year) (Requires Transformation skill of at least D+) - cleared
    -[X] Do your research - Glacius (Needed for exams at the end of the year) (Requires Charm skill of at least D) - cleared
    -[X] Do your research - Shrinking Solution (Needed for exams at the end of the year)
    -[X] Train, Learn, Achieve - Charms
    -[X] Do your research - Expecto Patronum - What stops an unstoppable force? (Requires Charm and DADA skill of at least P) DADA - cleared, Charms - cleared after one study session
    -[X] Do your research - Expecto Patronum
    [X] Plan find the Horizon
    -[X] Break through your Horizon I (3 Actions)
    -[X]Business School of Hogsmeade
    -[X] Train Intelligence
    -[X] Train Occlumency
    -[X] Train DADA
    -[X] Spell learning x5 (Focillo, Expecto Patronum, Glacius)
    [X] Plan Exploration and training
    -[X] Break through your Horizon I – Hogwarts is built in a valley area — surrounding mountains are part of the landscape. You had always wondered about them, because they were your daily horizon. Usually there would not have been enough time for you to get there, wander around to explore the lands and come back in time for curfew. Having access to a broom would have helped you, but now that you had secret exits out of Hogwarts… the horizon was not your limit anymore. Use the unknown passageway in the north end of the castle. (Takes 3 Actions, can't be taken in the same month as Twenty Thousand Leagues Under the Sea and What hides behind trees)
    -[X] Do Something! Take some time of to reflex about yourself. Make a painting to express yourself.
    -[X] Train Intelligence
    -[X] Train Creativity
    -[X] DADA x2 (if DADA training fails skip protego)
    -[X] Spell learning x3 (Protego deep understanding, Focillo, Draconifors, Expecto Patronum)
    -[X] Potion learning (Wideye Potion)
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@Arthelys @LightLan @DerHesse
You guys might want to consider to change your vote in plan. The leading plans are on a draw.

Edit: Not everyone has voted on the shoes. Please do not forget that part of the vote.
 
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Nando said:
The mechanics are pretty clear: it's advantageous to roll for attributes, as long as it's more likely to succeed than not, since level ups are pretty scarce. Intelligence is the most relevant attribute. I guess we could just say "fuck the mechanics" and ignore the relevance of the attributes, but those are also something I, and I imagine several others as well, do enjoy.
Yes, we are accumulating opportunity costs, but that's bad luck, not bad decisions, in my opinion. And reasoning that we could have used the actions somewhere else feels a bit like arguing after the fact. It was more likely that we'd spent one action on it.
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Level ups are only scarce because we have been avoiding doing things that would cause a level up. We could have probably leveled up twice more if we had taken some more Cases and Exploration actions. And I'm not saying "fuck the mechanics". I'm saying that spending 3 Personal actions on trying to get 1 level up in a high attribute isn't just bad luck, but a bad gamble to even take when we have other attributes we can train easier and other ways to raise higher leveled attributes. A 60% chance of success is almost basically 50/50. At that point it is more productive to focus on other things. But I suppose it all depends on if we actually pass on the next DC or not.
 
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ShyGuy said:
Level ups are only scarce because we have been avoiding doing things that would cause a level up. We could have probably leveled up twice more if we had taken some more Cases and Exploration actions. And I'm not saying "fuck the mechanics". I'm saying that spending 3 Personal actions on trying to get 1 level up in a high attribute isn't just bad luck, but a bad gamble to even take when we have other attributes we can train easier and other ways to raise higher leveled attributes. A 60% chance of success is almost basically 50/50. At that point it is more productive to focus on other things. But I suppose it all depends on if we actually pass on the next DC or not.
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Level up exp requirements are either linear increases in 50 XP required per level up or will be exponential in some way. either way it means that level ups will become slower and slower over time. Yes if we relentlessly hammered XP generating actions we may have gained more stat points. At the cost of making our later build drastically worse and improvement drastically slower.
 
SuperSonicSound said:
Level up exp requirements are either linear increases in 50 XP required per level up or will be exponential in some way. either way it means that level ups will become slower and slower over time. Yes if we relentlessly hammered XP generating actions we may have gained more stat points. At the cost of making our later build drastically worse and improvement drastically slower.
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I suppose that is ultimately just a matter of opinion then. Because by taking an approach of naturally trying to raise our high attributes, we have been devoting resources to them. Those resources could have been used in improving our build in other ways (Skills or Spells). Attributes aren't the only thing that dictate our build after all. I suppose that this is a moot point though until we actually roll for the training. If we pass then maybe it was worth the actions spent, if we don't then its just another misstep in the path.
 
ShyGuy said:
I suppose that is ultimately just a matter of opinion then. Because by taking an approach of naturally trying to raise our high attributes, we have been devoting resources to them. Those resources could have been used in improving our build in other ways (Skills or Spells). Attributes aren't the only thing that dictate our build after all. I suppose that this is a moot point though until we actually roll for the training. If we pass then maybe it was worth the actions spent, if we don't then its just another misstep in the path.
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The only time it's worth training attributes is whilst they are low enough that success is more likely than failure. Bad luck doesn't invalidate reasoning. I'm sorry it just doesn't. We could roll nothing but natural 1s on spell learning and it would do nothing to invalidate the underlying logic of why those spell training actions were taken..

Whether we pass or fail to improve int this turn, has no impact on whether the reasoning was sound beforehand. What if we'd passed all three rolls at the end of this (This is third attempt) in which case we are now sitting on Int7 would being lucky and passing a 30% chance roll mean it was more valid than attempting one with a 60% chance. I don't think so, in fact I'd have said that the last attempt shouldn't have been made. if you do something stupid and it works it was still stupid you just got lucky or don't understand why it wasn't stupid.

There's no hidden variable here.
 
Right now I have some time to write but there is no clear consensus. I'd love for a few new votes for this to decide.

So, for those that usually do not participate in these plan votes (which is half of the frequent votership) please reconsider.

Plan 1 is for a month of total focus on training with Jacob doing nothing else.

Plan 2 is for mostly training and taking a first step into exploring one of the hidden passages you found.
 
[X] Plan Empathetic Adventures V3

A sudden, yet inevitable betrayal. I can see the writing on the wall and I want the update sooner rather than later :D
 
Sadness.

Well there goes the advancement towards duelling that we were working towards. I assume then the threads appetite for that is gone now?
 
SuperSonicSound said:
Sadness.

Well there goes the advancement towards duelling that we were working towards. I assume then the threads appetite for that is gone now?
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We still have a few months remaining. If we get lucky we'll have quite a few spells ready, and we can focus on DADA, Patronus and exploration, and still make it on time.

As long as Lupin doesn't disappear magically or we branch out into other areas of focus, I think we can still achieve our goals.

Haven't done the math but I think we're still okay.
 
SuperSonicSound said:
The only time it's worth training attributes is whilst they are low enough that success is more likely than failure. Bad luck doesn't invalidate reasoning. I'm sorry it just doesn't. We could roll nothing but natural 1s on spell learning and it would do nothing to invalidate the underlying logic of why those spell training actions were taken..

Whether we pass or fail to improve int this turn, has no impact on whether the reasoning was sound beforehand. What if we'd passed all three rolls at the end of this (This is third attempt) in which case we are now sitting on Int7 would being lucky and passing a 30% chance roll mean it was more valid than attempting one with a 60% chance. I don't think so, in fact I'd have said that the last attempt shouldn't have been made. if you do something stupid and it works it was still stupid you just got lucky or don't understand why it wasn't stupid.

There's no hidden variable here.
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Ugh, why do you have to be so logical here. I guess you are right in that I'm just a bit salty about failing all those DC. If we passed all those I would be saying it was the right move. Still don't like it, but I understand the reasoning.
 
ShyGuy said:
Ugh, why do you have to be so logical here. I guess you are right in that I'm just a bit salty about failing all those DC. If we passed all those I would be saying it was the right move. Still don't like it, but I understand the reasoning.
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The gacha addict's lament. Welcome to Gambling Addict's Anonymous. Roll some dice to choose your seat.
 
SuperSonicSound said:
Sadness.

Well there goes the advancement towards duelling that we were working towards. I assume then the threads appetite for that is gone now?
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I'm not against putting a couple more actions into DADA next month. The DC will remain the same in training them next month (low). I just wanted to get a Potions action in before the auto class skill up kicked in. Tbh, if you had included an exploration action in your plan, I would have likely voted for you.

But yeah, I'm all down for dueling, I just figured that training DADA next month would be better than training it this month, before the free rank ups take effect.
 
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ShyGuy said:
I'm not against putting a couple more actions into DADA next month. The DC will remain the same in training them next month (low). I just wanted to get a Potions action in before the auto class skill up kicked in. Tbh, if you had included an exploration action in your plan, I would have likely voted for you.

But yeah, I'm all down for dueling, I just figured that training DADA next month would be better than training it this month, before the free rank ups take effect.
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Well my main concern is the lack of a creativity bump in your plan if we had that then it wouldn't be to much of an issue but it means that when we level up we can't bump to 6/6 int/cre (I admit that due to chance it's a realistic that this could have been an issue with my plan) and thus can't hit 11 in dada in the couple of months.

We're not going to be able to train cre via action with out being lucky if it's sitting on 5+ and I'm unlikely to suggest it which means waiting for the next level up.
 
SuperSonicSound said:
Well my main concern is the lack of a creativity bump in your plan if we had that then it wouldn't be to much of an issue but it means that when we level up we can't bump to 6/6 int/cre (I admit that due to chance it's a realistic that this could have been an issue with my plan) and thus can't hit 11 in dada in the couple of months.

We're not going to be able to train cre via action with out being lucky if it's sitting on 5+ and I'm unlikely to suggest it which means waiting for the next level up.
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Maybe Jacob will find some inspiration exploring and that will help his creativity. We can always take coin flips too. It's not necessarily efficient, but it's not terrible.
 
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