A Green Sun Illuminates the Void (ZnT/Exalted)

Stormseer88 said:
Not if they have perfect social defenses, then you might as well jump into Oblivion, since they will have much larger essence-pools than you!
If they have perfect social defenses, the BNC couldn't have hoodwinked them into giving them knowledge of Necromancy. The BNC clearly did so, evidenced by the fact that Necromancy was known in the First Age. Therefore, the Neverborn do not have unassailable perfect social defenses. They do most likely have impressively strong social defenses, but incontrovertible evidence shows that those defenses are not invincible.
 
You assume that the Neverborn feel that unleashing the magic arts of death, which poison Creation at the higher levels--was a bad thing for their cause (This being 'Kill the Universe')
 
Tell them that the Curse is what keeps them bound to the world unable to finish dying. The curse would be lifted so quickly that it would get friction burns.
The Neverborn just want the pain to end. Revenge is secondary to "make the hurting stop".
 
Stormseer88 said:
Actually, they may have perfect defenses, but since they were outnumbered they were motetapped into submission.
That makes sense, given that the BNC would also likely be packing hearthstones, causing their mote-regen to be faster than the Neverborn's. It would all be down to persistence.
 
Stormseer88 said:
Indeed.

It would be retarded for the BNC to venture into the underworld without hearthstones since they would be unable to respire essence without them.

Regardless, it is impossible to truly model what happened with our limited knowledge, at least until WW releases stats for the Neverborn, which might never happen.

It would be cool to know what would happen if the woke up though...
Well, they likely used Chaos-Repelling Pattern, which causes a small area around you to function as if in Creation, but it sucks up eight motes and lasts only an hour, so they need those hearthstones. Otherwise, they would be limited to Abyssal and Earth aspected hearthstones, as others don't function in the Underworld.
 
GramaryeJG said:
Sounds less like actual mind-rape and more like charm enhanced filibustering. By what I just reread, it looks more like going to the tombs of the Neverborn was the only place they could find knowledge of Necromancy, not that the needed the Neverborn as teachers, albeit unwilling ones.
Charm enhanced filibustering is the vehicle through which most Solar mind rape occurs. It's the nature of how Solar charms work: the application of a skill, in this case oratory. If you want something that alters the subject's mind without having to talk to them or having them read something you write, you would need Sorcery.
 
Aaron Peori said:
All this results in is a free Abyssal Exaltation which will independantly seek out a potential host. Unless a Deathlord uses Call The Black Sun to bind the free Exaltation to another monstrance.


While outside of the monstrance the Abyssal Exaltation is utterly immune to tampering.
Except for being pulled back to Lytek's cabinet to be scrubbed. The Exaltation is *bound* to the Monstrance so that the Neverborn and their Deathlords can control where it goes after death and then can be released to to connect with a mortal. I see nothing that states that the twisted Exaltation won't revert to 'default return to home' settings if the Monstrance is not available. It is what is imposing an external control, not a setting in the Exaltation.


That it might come out of Lytek's cabinet a bit odd is certainly a possibility. But at heart, it's still a Solar Exaltation, just twisted and bound to a magical artifact of extreme potency.

Aaron Peori said:
A Monstrance can not convert a Solar on its own. The spell Dimming The Light is needed. The Monstrance is a part of this ritual, but is no more important than any other component of any other spell. Though a Monstrance can torture a Solar until he is willing to convert (the Solar also has the option to choose death or permanent catatonia, so even then he can't be forced to convert if he really doesn't want to).
I did understand that the Monstrance couldn't do the work of converting a Solar Exaltation by itself, but it is key to the actual process. Without a Monstrance, at the moment of death the Exaltation would just head back to Lytek to be 'reset' and sent to another worthy soul.

Aaron Peori said:
No. If you destroy the anchor and kill the Abyssal you get an Abyssal exaltation, utterly inviolate. Only Redemption can cure an Abyssal.
Just like Solar Exaltations were totally and utterly inviolate? Oh, wait, they aren't.

Aaron Peori said:
With Infernals, you need to cleanse the Exaltation after its free of the body. Which requires capturing it first, a not inconsiderable task. Also Infernals still suffer from the Great Curse, just warped to serve the Yozi's purpose. The Yozi's claim this was to make them better servants.


Personally? I think its because the only ones who can remove the Great Curse are the ones who laid it.
Hard to say. Considering that a very, very small group of people even know the secret of the Great Curse.


Who's to say that Autothecton (SP?) couldn't fix them himself if he were given a heads up on the issue? They are his design, after all. The Incarnae are only caretakers and can't create their own new Exaltations.
 
Nope, free Abyssal shards don't return to the cabinet and don't get cleansed. They skip straight to searching for a worthy host.

http://forums.white-wolf.com/cs/blo...nk-monkeys-vol-31-chapter-seven-abyssals.aspx

In any event, Abyssals have died without a Monstrance for their Exaltation to return to. Recapturing a loose Exaltation is difficult, expensive and time-consuming (see The Manual of Exalted Power—The Abyssals, p. 117)—and Deathlords do not always have the luxury of time. A loose Exaltation hurries across Creation on a dogleg course, attempting to act according to its original nature, yet hampered by the modifications the Deathlords have inflicted upon it. The sun's clean light sears the Exaltation, burning off the dross of Abyssal memories, and so it hides away in corpses through the day. By night it seeks a host, a hero, a character worthy of Solar Exaltation… but it may not bond with her. The Abyssal Exaltation is a thing of death, and only at death's doorway may it bestow its dark blessing.
Free Infernal shards, likewise, forcibly implant themselves in the nearest demon and use it to find a mortal host.
 
hyzmarca said:
Nope, free Abyssal shards don't return to the cabinet and don't get cleansed. They skip straight to searching for a worthy host.

http://forums.white-wolf.com/cs/blo...nk-monkeys-vol-31-chapter-seven-abyssals.aspx



Free Infernal shards, likewise, forcibly implant themselves in the nearest demon and use it to find a mortal host.
I take Ink Monkeys with a grain of salt. If the mere existence of an Abyssal Exalt were to work towards the destruction of Creation (which they supposedly are) then there would not be quite the worry about losing your Monstrance (from the original Manual of Exalted Powers: Abyssal).

While that is a 'possible' explanation (and is from someone that works at White Wolf) I think it counters the a splat point that mentions about finding and destroying Monstrances in the book.

It really sounds to me like someone mentioned their idea of destroying the Monstrance and the GM went "Dang, can't have someone succeeding at a heroic state! I'll retcon something!"
 
arthurh3535 said:
Except for being pulled back to Lytek's cabinet to be scrubbed. The Exaltation is *bound* to the Monstrance so that the Neverborn and their Deathlords can control where it goes after death and then can be released to to connect with a mortal. I see nothing that states that the twisted Exaltation won't revert to 'default return to home' settings if the Monstrance is not available. It is what is imposing an external control, not a setting in the Exaltation.


That it might come out of Lytek's cabinet a bit odd is certainly a possibility. But at heart, it's still a Solar Exaltation, just twisted and bound to a magical artifact of extreme potency.
False. An Abyssal Exaltation is utterly inverted from a Solar one. It's turned inside out, running off necrotic Essence rather than the Essence of the universe, and the branching possibilities of the Solar one instead merge into one pointed blade pointed at the heart of the universe. It's permanently like that; the Monstrance is only a control mechanism to allow the Deathlords to decide who Exalts, not anything to do with the actual Shard.


And I'm pretty sure that it's in the 2nd Edition Abyssals book that it goes into freeroaming mode, and exalts people that are dying in the attempt to be heroic. That's not an Ink Monkeys thing.

I did understand that the Monstrance couldn't do the work of converting a Solar Exaltation by itself, but it is key to the actual process. Without a Monstrance, at the moment of death the Exaltation would just head back to Lytek to be 'reset' and sent to another worthy soul.
False. And it's an N/A Artefact used in the ritual, yes, but it's not a fundamental part of the Exaltation.

Who's to say that Autothecton (SP?) couldn't fix them himself if he were given a heads up on the issue? They are his design, after all. The Incarnae are only caretakers and can't create their own new Exaltations.
He could repair the GSP ones, because they're basically a Solar one, stripped of its outer layer, with the raw, Primordial-level energies fuelled into emulating multiple Primordials (in fact, theoretically they could be emulating all 25 living Primordials at once, if you could get them to open up their Charmsets). You'd just have to remove the graft and repair the surface.


After all, Solars and Primordials aren't so different. Solar Exaltations are to the Sun, as the Sun is to Malfeas, and by gods, it shows. They're effectively Malfeas's grandchildren.


The Abyssal one is inverted. Turned inside out, running off necrotic Essence, in its natural state. You can't repair it, because that's how it's "meant" to be. It's dead, unnatural, and living Essence doesn't work well with necrotic Essence. At all. When an Abyssal redeems themselves, they're doing it to themselves, turning it inside-out using necrotic Essence against itself.

arthurh3535 said:
I take Ink Monkeys with a grain of salt. If the mere existence of an Abyssal Exalt were to work towards the destruction of Creation (which they supposedly are) then there would not be quite the worry about losing your Monstrance (from the original Manual of Exalted Powers: Abyssal).
Yeah, the Deathlords are worried about it, because they don't want free Exalts running around. I mean, fuck, what happens if the buggers decide that we're not trying hard enough because most of us don't really want to destroy the world, and actually do destroy it?


But the point is, "Frag the Monstrance, save the world" is trite and dull (much like the atrocious Deathlord stats, which are made of stupid because as statted, the Deathlords could wipe out Creation without needing Abyssals). Abyssal Redemption has to be earned, and so getting rid of the Monstrance is useful, but not sufficient.


And most of the Ink Monkeys stuff is just plain better. Apart from their Martial Arts stuff, which they really can't seem to balance (rasser' frassin' Cobra Style).
 
We'll have to agree to disagree here (on 'fixing' Abyssal Exaltation), because a lot of what I just read on the Ink Monkey blog site isn't 'better' IMO. The idea that Autochtonian can't reverse what the Neverborn did smacks of 'no you can't. nyah' sort of rules.

A basic resistance charm (stackable) that grants Sta+3 as Bashing/Lethal Soak as compared to the base book Oak Body Technique (just an extra health level or levels)? And you could stack them together easily.

I'm sure the Ink Monkeys are working on things (and they sound interesting at times) but unless they were actually willing to print it into a book, I'll take it with a grain of salt.
 
The Ink Monkeys posts are all canon fully endorsed by White Wolf.
They don't put it into a book because its supplementary material that wouldn't justify the publishing costs. You can't blame them for not wanting to lose massive amounts of money.

Autocthon might be able to reverse what the Neverborn did, but Lytek certain can't and Autobot is asleep (waking him is probably a very bad idea).

But the point is that the Abyssal himself can reverse the process. It isn't easy, but it is doable. Destroying the Monstrance is necessary but insufficient.
 
Delusionist said:
It's this fact that makes me annoyed that we don't have, and likely never will have social stats for Neverborn, because the most direct way of breaking the Great Curse would be for a Solar to make like the Black Nadir Concordat and mind rape the Neverborn into breaking the curse. Seriously, it's not that complicated. If the BNC could force Necromancy from the Neverborn, it should be possible to bamboozle them into breaking the Curse.
The social stats for confronting the Neverborn are in the Manual of Exalted Power: The Abyssals, on page 46.


They have 10 in every relevant Trait (Attributes, Abilities, Willpower, Virtues, Mental DVs, the works). They are completely and utterly immune to all unnatural mental influence. This means you have to engage in normal social combat with them, spending at least ten scenes forging or breaking intimacies towards the goals you want them to engage in. Of course, during all this time you have to have a perfect scene-long defense against unnatural mental influence up yourself or they crush your puny mind like a bug and turn you into whatever they want it to be or just annihilate you entirely.


---------------

Epsilon
 
arthurh3535 said:
We'll have to agree to disagree here (on 'fixing' Abyssal Exaltation), because a lot of what I just read on the Ink Monkey blog site isn't 'better' IMO. The idea that Autochtonian can't reverse what the Neverborn did smacks of 'no you can't. nyah' sort of rules.
What, you mean "instead of getting the NPC to do it with a magic wand, you actually have to earn your redemption, or actually put a lot of time and effort into redeeming your Abyssal friend"? Yeah, not letting the NPC do stuff, and making it a challenge for the PCs to solve is so bad.


Incidentally, "Abyssals can only redeem when Exalts, Infernals can only be turned into Solars with access to Charms" is in Chapter 7 of Infernals (one of the chapters which actually exists), as one of the differences between the two. It is in a book.


And the Ink Monkeys are developer-approved. They're as canon as anything else.

A basic resistance charm (stackable) that grants Sta+3 as Bashing/Lethal Soak as compared to the base book Oak Body Technique (just an extra health level or levels)? And you could stack them together easily.


I'm sure the Ink Monkeys are working on things (and they sound interesting at times) but unless they were actually willing to print it into a book, I'll take it with a grain of salt.
Yep. Because core Ox Body Technique sucks. There are few Charms which are more waste of XP than the core Solar Ox Body, and one of them is the Sidereal one, which gives you a single -0 health level. It's too weak, and other charms shouldn't be dragged down by it.
 
Eh, from what I've read, I will probably never allow anything from Ink Monkeys into my game. I'm already overloaded with possible cheese without web-blog writing on top of it. Actual Errata I'm cool with.
 
arthurh3535 said:
We'll have to agree to disagree here (on 'fixing' Abyssal Exaltation), because a lot of what I just read on the Ink Monkey blog site isn't 'better' IMO. The idea that Autochtonian can't reverse what the Neverborn did smacks of 'no you can't. nyah' sort of rules.


A basic resistance charm (stackable) that grants Sta+3 as Bashing/Lethal Soak as compared to the base book Oak Body Technique (just an extra health level or levels)? And you could stack them together easily.


I'm sure the Ink Monkeys are working on things (and they sound interesting at times) but unless they were actually willing to print it into a book, I'll take it with a grain of salt.
I share no love for the Ink Monkeys. However the Abyssal Exaltations thing is not an Ink Monkey's thing. It is specifically a thing mostly published in the book (the relevant rules were cut for space, but they were written by the books author).


If you want to change them, that's cool. Nobody stops you from doing what you want in your campaign.


Anyway, this whole discussion is rather tangental and unimportant to the fic.


---------------

Epsilon
 
EarthScorpion said:
Yep. Because core Ox Body Technique sucks. There are few Charms which are more waste of XP than the core Solar Ox Body, and one of them is the Sidereal one, which gives you a single -0 health level. It's too weak, and other charms shouldn't be dragged down by it.
To be fair, the Sidereal Ox-Body isn't designed to help you survive hits. If you get hit as a Sidereal you are Doing It Wrong. Sidereal Ox-Body is kind of like the Sidereal version of Immanent Solar Glory since it is designed to grant them the ability to use more than one Prayer-Strip Charm (which almost invariably cost a hl to use) without getting penalized.


--------------

Epsilon
 
EarthScorpion said:
What, you mean "instead of getting the NPC to do it with a magic wand, you actually have to earn your redemption, or actually put a lot of time and effort into redeeming your Abyssal friend"? Yeah, not letting the NPC do stuff, and making it a challenge for the PCs to solve is so bad.


Incidentally, "Abyssals can only redeem when Exalts, Infernals can only be turned into Solars with access to Charms" is in Chapter 7 of Infernals (one of the chapters which actually exists), as one of the differences between the two. It is in a book.


And the Ink Monkeys are developer-approved. They're as canon as anything else.




Yep. Because core Ox Body Technique sucks. There are few Charms which are more waste of XP than the core Solar Ox Body, and one of them is the Sidereal one, which gives you a single -0 health level. It's too weak, and other charms shouldn't be dragged down by it.
Eh, I hate power inflation. Oak Body wasn't really that bad, it's just been superseded by newer, better 'bigger' things.

I do see where they hid the rules on 'free Abyssal exalted' (in a magic item listing, natch, not the section dealing with the Exaltation creation) They become free after a month of inhabiting its dead body, which means its sitting right there where some Solar can actually *study* it.

The rules for actually breaking a Monstrance are cool though.
 
Plus, Abyssal Redemption guidelines Are in the official errata now.


I've long since decided that all these people saying 'INK MONKEYS SUCK BECAUSE THEY DO', are just doing the same thing that happens whenever DnD changes editions, they bitch and whine because they don't want to encorporate anything new, so they find the flimsiest excuses to deny it (Such as the traditional 'It's not in a paid-for book, therefore it's just fan-additions!', regardless of the official okay from the devs that's in their manifesto)


It's people like you that ruin my fun in Exalted, and that makes me sad :(
 
Eh, Abyssal Redemption never changed - they had guideline for it back in first edition, and it always was that a Abyssal could redeem himself (probably dying doing it - they kept the option of surviving it open for PC, but strongly suggested that if it wasn't a scarifice your life selflessly moment, you hadn't done enough to earn your return to solarness), but no other force could restore a Abyssal shard to being a solar shard.
 
Alectai said:
I've long since decided that all these people saying 'INK MONKEYS SUCK BECAUSE THEY DO', are just doing the same thing that happens whenever DnD changes editions, they bitch and whine because they don't want to encorporate anything new, so they find the flimsiest excuses to deny it (Such as the traditional 'It's not in a paid-for book, therefore it's just fan-additions!', regardless of the official okay from the devs that's in their manifesto)
I hate the majority of the Ink Monkey's stuff and its not because of the reason you state above. I basically think most of it is overpowered nonsense and that the Ink Monkey's are engaged in an endless power inflation spiral.


---------------

Epsilon
 
Back to the topic at hand, Louise is only two Charm Purchases and one point of essence away from Hell-Walker Technique. If she has any desire to visit Malfeas in person, it wouldn't be difficult for her to do so.
Her Coadjutor might just push her in that direction.
 
Back
Top