2024-AT-07: Staff and Evilchumlee

The guy absolutely was never contrite, as seen by his pattern of 'oh i'm so sorry for being right' that repeated over and over; he made no efforts to improve because he did not see what he was doing as wrong. I am only surprised by how long it took for him to eat a perma, honestly, because the writing was on the wall from pretty much the very first post I remember seeing from him which boiled down to him complaining about women and LGBTQ people being allowed to engage with media.
 
DoobleDeeDooble said:
I can't help but feel this is a bit unfortunate, although definitely the right call. I genuinely think he was trying and just not getting it. But that really wasn't enough. Like was said, this was about what was fair for everyone else here; and waiting for the likely next blowup wouldn't be.

Admittedly I don't think I've seen the worst from him, to get the bead on any genuine bigotry over just some confusion and other thoughts; though part of what I did see was a categorical statement that I among many others are evil for a thing one can't help, so, maybe I just have an unreasonable store of pity for someone asking for it?

Regardless, I hope he can learn elsewhere, and with any luck better than trying to learn here was going.
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He was ladiesman, apparently.

And he posted on over on SB for like 20 years or so.
No human tries at something for 20 years. They succeed or they stop trying long long before then.

He is who he is, and he's going to be as he is, fundamentally, for the rest of his life.
 
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NeremWorld said:
If he didn't do anything worthy of banning, then it doesn't really matter how chuddy they secretly are. They got ejected for breaking the rules.
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Ladiesman was worthy of a ban for years too and it's wild he didn't eat one before.

Maybe because some people really liked caping for one of the forum's designated "I'm not right wing, but (awful bigotry)"
 
I looked up his posting history on Spacebattles. Not going to detail anything, but what I have seen has me convinced another chance would not improve his behavior. There was stuff that, if expressed here, would have expedited the permanent ban.
 
Sotek said:
Okay, now that I have read the tribunal I hope that if ECL does in fact apply to be unbanned in a year, staff remembers his final post in the tribunal before considering leniency.
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To be honest, not knowing about his previous "life" on SB, I was pretty much leaning towards the more lenient 1 year ban. Because he did sound like he was trying to be better and I feel that should be rewarded.

And then came the last post about how SV was a far left haven and everyone not in lockstep with it would get the boot...
Yeah, that changed my mind pretty quickly about how honest he was about "trying to be better".

The thing I find the most curious about it was that that didn't even come in a final "flaming out" post, which you'd expect of you'd just read that summary, but that it was still trying to convince people that he was learning and trying to fit in better and what not. Just a weird, weird thing to write when basically begging for mercy.
 
Absum said:
Also, since it got mentioned in the Tribunal and not edited out, I have to say that I found all the previous Tribunals in which Evilchumlee said they were learning and just needed more time rather awkward in light of them being a SB user that was on there for 20 years before getting permabanned. Like yeah different site and all but that doesn't really inspire confidence in one's ability to learn the rules.
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To be fair, the moderating practices on SB have shifted rather drastically during the last 20 years. Hell, if you read discussions only 6 or 8 years old you're likely to see half of the participants banned. So I suspect it is rather a matter of the climate and rules shifting and Ladiesman not adapting to change. "SB's resident racist" wouldn't have lasted there for 20 years if he had been utterly ill-suited for that environment. But as noted our two sites have become less welcoming to his brand of posting and character of opinion during the last little while.
 
Pawn Lelouch said:
That is how it works in practice but it relies on staff being willing to give you one final chance when you had in essence already blown it. There are people who ask but don't actually get given that chance for example.
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prometheus110 said:
From what I've seen occur with other users, if you aren't completely vile and you're willing to wait awhile post ban, you can talk to the admins about being let back on but a whole host of factors go into whether they agree or not. That said, I don't think there's a solid procedure for doing it since most permabans occur for a reason.
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Squishy said:
A permaban doesn't automatically expire. You can ask for it to be removed, but it's ultimately an act of clemency. Usually we tell people that we'll consider it in a year or two, but there's no hard rule and certainly no guarantee that even if we consider it we'll agree.
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Okay thanks, seems like I did remember right. Maybe I overestimate/overestimated the chances, but that's fine for me as long as the option exists.
 
Some of this stuff I did not know about ECL, and though I somewhat understood where he was coming from on issues regarding CNC, a lot of what the tribunal outlined is clearly inexcusable, particularly the homophobic, transphobic, and Islamophobic comments. An apology is great, but without follow-through it is meaningless.
 
Absum said:
Maybe I overestimate/overestimated the chances, but that's fine for me as long as the option exists.
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Entirely off the top of my head I think the success ratio of people asking to be unbanned after a year or two is maybe 50%? Of course it's a very small sample size, some were banned again, very many never asked to be unbanned, etc.
 
stratigo said:
Ladiesman was worthy of a ban for years too and it's wild he didn't eat one before.

Maybe because some people really liked caping for one of the forum's designated "I'm not right wing, but (awful bigotry)"
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This doesn't really hold up, and was kind of irrelevant to what I said anyways. He really hadn't gotten any free Second Chances in tribunals here, the moment he hit the threshold he was ejected and had largely just built up small amounts of points until then (until he started getting them a lot all at once, which prompted his removal).

He absolutely deserved to lose that tribunal, and so he did.
 
All the above being said, I do feel a little sad to see a permaban handed out to someone who's probably not malicious, just utterly socially inept and bereft of any sort of verbal filter. Being so dense he practically has his own event horizon was not a lifestyle choice on his part, you know?
 
Jake said:
All the above being said, I do feel a little sad to see a permaban handed out to someone who's probably not malicious, just utterly socially inept and bereft of any sort of verbal filter. Being so dense he practically has his own event horizon was not a lifestyle choice on his part, you know?
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Ladiesman was a bigot.

There's not ifs or buts about it. He was a bigot. That's not socially inept, that's malice.
 
stratigo said:
Ladiesman was a bigot.

There's not ifs or buts about it. He was a bigot. That's not socially inept, that's malice.
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Even if we take out his behavior from SB, this was someone I had a very thin line of patience with in spite of having little direct interaction with him. His conduct in the settler colonization discussion thread was the final straw for me, AND even still I held my tongue and just disagreed with everything he had wrote as opposed to lashing out (okay a little bit, but I guess it passed the rules threshold).
 
Ladiesman technique was to say something pretty bad and then go "Oh I didn't know how bad it was. Don't hurt me. UwU, I am just a smoll bean" and it is frustrating how often that worked.
 
One of Chum's early posts on SV was
Evilchumlee said:
I don't think there's an inherent problem with live action adaptations... there's just a problem with media today.

Media in general seems more interested in virtue signaling diversity quotas and making political messages where they didn't need to be.

I do think these tend to get made by people who don't particularly care about the source material. It's a job to them, and they're "artists", so they do whatever they want with it.
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and from there it wasn't hard to predict where he would end up. Chum tried to maintain this "oh gosh oh golly I don't mean to be bad" demeanor but in the end it doesn't much matter whether he was hiding his power level in order to toe the line or this was genuinely his personality because frankly, sufficiently advanced incompetence is indistinguishable from malice.

Others have mentioned he has a long record on SB; I only know him from SV but what he posted here was more than casually hateful enough to get shitcanned. I'm a bit disappointed in the counselors who tried to compromise with a 1-year ban - I know some SVers really like to offer second chances but this user's posting was routinely beyond the pale of acceptable for SV.
 
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Honestly, seeing the last three tribunals, I'm not surprised that this happened. That's three strikes right there in a 1 year. If you get three strikes in a year, you are basically screwed, especially when you get over 100 points within a year.

I honestly thought the guy had to be one of those guys who have never been in a debate with someone having a different opinion than them, I really did, but the fact that he had been on SB for 20 years, with the exact same behavior? Yeah, that convinced me the guy is full of shit with the way he acts. "I'm sorry" no you are not.
 
Kuja said:
One of Chum's early posts on SV was

and from there it wasn't hard to predict where he would end up. Chum tried to maintain this "oh gosh oh golly I don't mean to be bad" demeanor but in the end it doesn't much matter whether he was hiding his power level in order to toe the line or this was genuinely his personality because frankly, sufficiently advanced incompetence is indistinguishable from malice.

Others have mentioned he has a long record on SB; I only know him from SV but what he posted here was more than casually hateful enough to get shitcanned. I'm a bit disappointed in the counselors who tried to compromise with a 1-year ban - I know some SVers really like to offer second chances but this user's posting was routinely beyond the pale of acceptable for SV.
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Yeah I mean, a permaban is basically a one-year ban if they try to appeal it. And he should have to appeal it because of how his argument in every tribunal was "I'm sorry... but I was also right."
 
Kuja said:
I'm a bit disappointed in the counselors who tried to compromise with a 1-year ban - I know some SVers really like to offer second chances but this user's posting was routinely beyond the pale of acceptable for SV.
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Speaking up purely for those councilors out personal regard, while Evilchumlee's comments were unacceptable, I do not fault them for offering a second after he has experienced serious consequences, namely at least a one year ban. All of them fully appreciate the vulnerability of certain groups here on SV and I would even go as so far to point that most of them were at the forefront of the anti-fascist set that Squishy and Ford led in response to the far-right chat clique that was operating on Spacebattles at the time. I would say they have proven many over times that they are not soft on bigotry on online platforms, so giving them some forbearance would be wise.
 
stratigo said:
Ladiesman technique was to say something pretty bad and then go "Oh I didn't know how bad it was. Don't hurt me. UwU, I am just a smoll bean" and it is frustrating how often that worked.
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Truly wild how often people fell for the "😳👉👈 all I did was say I love Superman and that making him Jewish would mean he's not normal" act.

Dude was a genuine throwback, not at all shocked to see he had a twenty+ record of saying the same dopey reactionary shit. He was like a living fossil throwback to the bad old days of 2003, and who clumsily and obviously tried to disguise their dumbass views as them simply phrasing "I love role playing as fascists because I secretly want to be one" poorly.

In the words of Lizzo, bye bitch
 
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Arthur Frayn said:
Truly wild how often people fell for the "😳👉👈 all I did was say I love Superman and that making him Jewish would mean he's not normal" act.

Dude was a genuine throwback, not at all shocked to see he had a twenty+ record of saying the same dopey reactionary shit. He was like a living fossil throwback to the bad old days of 2003, and who clumsily and obviously tried to disguise their dumbass views as them simply phrasing "I love role playing as fascists because I secretly want to be one" poorly.

In the words of Lizzo, bye bitch
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It is worth noting that some of us have not actually been here that long and are not steeped in the personal back histories of every user, so we would not know.
 
I mean, I didn't know chumlee was ladiesman until this tribunal. So I didn't have a profile of his posting history built in my head. But shit man, after just briefly interacting, it became clear he was a bigot poorly trying to obfuscate his bigotry.
 
stratigo said:
I mean, I didn't know chumlee was ladiesman until this tribunal. So I didn't have a profile of his posting history built in my head. But shit man, after just briefly interacting, it became clear he was a bigot poorly trying to obfuscate his bigotry.
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To emphasize my point, I did not know who Ladiesman even was, nor did at least an entire SV-adjacent server I was in. Some Spacebattles and Wordsmiths folks filled in the blanks thankfully, but there was a very much "missing step" affair here.
 
Wow, I just realized ECL was Ladiesman and not some impressionable user who stumbled upon SV and.ultimately failed to fit in. Needless to say I expected him to receive a Permanent Ban and hope he can find some other community that would accept him and the problems he would bring.

Squishy said:
A permaban doesn't automatically expire. You can ask for it to be removed, but it's ultimately an act of clemency. Usually we tell people that we'll consider it in a year or two, but there's no hard rule and certainly no guarantee that even if we consider it we'll agree.
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I always though Permanent Bans are well...permanent. I mean it's a shame when a forum lose another long time user because they can't abide by the rules. But the rules exist to create civil discourse and prevent a revolving door of troublemakers coming back after they caused a mess.
 
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