More or less on the fence, but i rather have Mira ride on the wave of popularity a bit longer and shown as working with the assembly by passing the very first bill. The future problems will be future problems after we have worked out our immediate problems.
Veto a popular bill that is the first might send the wrong signal to our population and fuel the challengers to our leadership.
1)The canon Citadel has never forced people to join it, or indeed to stay members.
The Batarians broke off relations with minimal fuss.
The only time we see force used is when they expel nations, like the Quarians and the Krogan.
2)We live in the Attican Traverse, the border between the Terminus and the Citadel.
Where the Citadel avoids pushing into to avoid raising military tensions.
No, our claim to independence lies in self-determination.
We could up and vote a referendum to secede in peacetime and it would still be legal as long as it had popular support.
The Council does not coerce people into staying; it's a cross between the UN, NATO and EU, it's not a federation.
Do recall that named independent asari colonies are a thing in canon.
If they come help again, they could easily play it to their people as 'We put in so much effort to save them but the ungrateful bastards are trying to secede' and build up support to put down the rebellion. They probably wouldn't succeed because of war-weariness, but why give them the ammo? I'm also not convinced we actually need the Citadel's help.
The Citadel Council is a cross between the UN, NATO and EU.
It's not the Imperium of Man, or even the USA.
It is composed of sovereign nations who can agree and disagree, join and leave as they choose.
That's why mutual signatories to the Citadel conventions can still fight each other, like when the Batarians bombarded a salarian colony world, and got into planetary skirmishes with other nations.
Seriously, the Citadel didn't choose to implement military intervention to stop slavery in Batarian territory.
The Asari literally got in the way to stop the Turians from tearing the Systems Alliance a new orifice after Shanxi.
Why would they go to war to force someone else to join?
Adhoc vote count started by uju32 on Jan 10, 2018 at 10:02 PM, finished with 7876 posts and 41 votes.
[X][BUOYS] Update the Maps: You can't count on a brief call to give you all the information you'll need to direct your breakout efforts. Ping the Rachni comms network for a detailed update on what exactly their held space is presently. Updates galaxy map to accurately reflect the present state of Rachni-held relays.
[X][BUOYS] Update the Maps: You can't count on a brief call to give you all the information you'll need to direct your breakout efforts. Ping the Rachni comms network for a detailed update on what exactly their held space is presently. Updates galaxy map to accurately reflect the present state of Rachni-held relays.
[X][BUOYS] Update the Maps: You can't count on a brief call to give you all the information you'll need to direct your breakout efforts. Ping the Rachni comms network for a detailed update on what exactly their held space is presently. Updates galaxy map to accurately reflect the present state of Rachni-held relays.
[X][BUOYS] Update the Maps: You can't count on a brief call to give you all the information you'll need to direct your breakout efforts. Ping the Rachni comms network for a detailed update on what exactly their held space is presently. Updates galaxy map to accurately reflect the present state of Rachni-held relays.
[X][BUOYS] Update the Maps: You can't count on a brief call to give you all the information you'll need to direct your breakout efforts. Ping the Rachni comms network for a detailed update on what exactly their held space is presently. Updates galaxy map to accurately reflect the present state of Rachni-held relays.
[X][BUOYS] Update the Maps: You can't count on a brief call to give you all the information you'll need to direct your breakout efforts. Ping the Rachni comms network for a detailed update on what exactly their held space is presently. Updates galaxy map to accurately reflect the present state of Rachni-held relays.
Vetoing this now and sending a distress signal are just going to hurt our chances at maintaining independence. Let's say the Citadel actually does help us. How is that a good thing? Our claim to independence relies on the fact that the Citadel abandoned Virmire. If they come help again, they could easily play it to their people as 'We put in so much effort to save them but the ungrateful bastards are trying to secede' and build up support to put down the rebellion. They probably wouldn't succeed because of war-weariness, but why give them the ammo? I'm also not convinced we actually need the Citadel's help.
Realistically, many years, probably decades, will pass between the distress signal and the time at which Citadel and Virmire forces first link up and we can plausibly say that the Citadel has 'rescued' Virmire.
There will be ample time to put up a declaration of independence between now and then.
Hell, I wouldn't object so strongly to declaring independence next year- I just want to be able to look at the map of what Citadel space does and does not control, as it is likely to influence how we think about and plan around our independence.
I'm a bit confused why people think asking for help is apparently a bad idea.
I mean, it's not like our fleets are in a position to use any recon data we get. Unless we're doing better than 2/3 strength for our main fleet and 3/4ths for our singular raid fleet?
[X][BUOYS] Update the Maps: You can't count on a brief call to give you all the information you'll need to direct your breakout efforts. Ping the Rachni comms network for a detailed update on what exactly their held space is presently. Updates galaxy map to accurately reflect the present state of Rachni-held relays.
2) There are LOTS of people who may support us, but do not want a formal break with the Citadel, at least not yet.
We have at least one in our own Cabinet as our chief of staff. If the Assembly vote is represenative of the population, that's 1 in 4 people.
Pissing them off is also a consideration, especially in a war where we're putting all hands on deck just to keep up.
As you said, Virmire is de facto independent, with it's own military, government and foreign policy.
Why do we need to antagonize the quiet voters just so we can change names and flags? Let sleeping dogs lie until we know more about the state of the galaxy and the Council.
..? I can't believe I'm seeing this here. You do not satisfy the "quiet voters" by ignoring the majority to satisfy a minority. There are more "quiet voters" in the majority group than the minority anyway! I'm telling you now, more people will complain about vetoing independence than letting it go through, if complaints are what you're worried about. If we want more information, then we can do a referendum afterwards, but I swear that vetoing the first major thing to cross our desk, something near-every Virminian has wanted since being abandoned, is a very bad idea. Especially when it's been pointed out that the Council doesn't force people to join or rejoin the Citadel.
..? I can't believe I'm seeing this here. You do not satisfy the "quiet voters" by ignoring the majority to satisfy a minority. There are more "quiet voters" in the majority group than the minority anyway! I'm telling you now, more people will complain about vetoing independence than letting it go through, if complaints are what you're worried about.
The majority do not care. Have no reason to, or at least trust us enough to follow our PC's lead.
They have an elected government, an increasingly powerful military, even an independent foreign policy. The shipyards are rolling out capital ships.
They are establishing their first colony in the next couple years. For all intents and purposes, they are de facto independent.
It's of note that not a single political candidate stood for independence as part of their electoral platform in a field that literally included a pacifist who wanted to make friends with the Rachni.
The minority OTOH includes some of the oldest and most influential people in the nation. Asari, Volus, Batarians. Highly skilled immigrants who we lack the capacity to train. People who grew up in Citadel space, and consider themselves Citadel citizens. Who moved here in that understanding.
They do not have any place to go in the middle of a war.
Declaring independence is a material change for them. Will put some of them in mind to return to the Citadel if we ever regain regular contact, establishing a brain drain and economic impact. Some of them might be persuaded, but rushing shit like this in literally the first year of the Assembly is the worst way to go about it, and to convince them their concerns will be ignored.
We have run roughshod over interest groups in the past, but principally when we were cleaning out corruption because Existential Threat.
It has caused us future problems, to the point where we see our PC regretting stuff in her diary; it's the proximate reason why we even have a Legislature.
This is worse, because this is entirely avoidable.
Will we be aiming at eventual, legal independence? Yes.
But there is literally no reason to do it now without a LOT more information than we currently have.
And I'd prefer more public debate.
If we want more information, then we can do a referendum afterwards, but I swear that vetoing the first major thing to cross our desk, something near-every Virminian has wanted since being abandoned, is a very bad idea. Especially when it's been pointed out that the Council doesn't force people to join or rejoin the Citadel.
[X][BUOYS] Update the Maps: You can't count on a brief call to give you all the information you'll need to direct your breakout efforts. Ping the Rachni comms network for a detailed update on what exactly their held space is presently. Updates galaxy map to accurately reflect the present state of Rachni-held relays.
The majority do not care. Have no reason to.
They have an elected government, a military, even an independent foreign policy. The shipyards are rolling out capital ships.
They are establishing their first colony in the next couple years. For all intents and purposes, they are de facto independent.
It's of note that not a single political candidate stood for independence as part of their electoral platform in a field that literally included a pacifist who wanted to make friends with the Rachni.
The minority OTOH includes some of the oldest and most influential people in the nation. Asari, Volus, Batarians. Highly skilled immigrants.
People who grew up in Citadel space, and consider themselves Citadel citizens. Who moved here in that understanding.
They do not have any place to go in the middle of a war.
Declaring independence is a material change for them.
Some of them might be persuaded, but rushing shit like this in literally the first year of the Assembly is the worst way to go about it, and to convince them their concerns will be ignored.
We have run roughshod over interest groups in the past, but principally when we were cleaning out corruption because Existential Threat.
It has caused us future problems, to the point where we see our PC regretting stuff in her diary; it's the proximate reason why we even have a Legislature.
This is worse, because this is entirely avoidable.
Will we be aiming at eventual, legal independence? Yes.
But there is literally no reason to do it now without a LOT more information than we currently have.
And I'd prefer more public debate.
So what you're saying is, we're already an independent nation in every way that actually matters except that we've just never really gotten around to formalizing the fact we're a colony that makes colonies and is therefore not a colony. None of our current salarian population (~44% tot. pop.) was alive when we still had contact with the Citadel and most of our batarian population (~27% tot. pop.) that remember life before the war were malcontents in the Hegemony. The volus (~12%) don't seem terribly upset about us doing our own thing. The only race that has issues over breaking off are the asari (~17% tot. pop.) ranging from matriarchs that think Virmirean independence is a fad to maidens that believe it is the way forward.
Whether you like it or not, by your own admission Virmire is essentially its own nation. We might as well formalize this and make sure to dot the i's and cross the t's. Going off your last post about the Citadel's stance on independence and joining, they probably will grumble about mining rights and sharing Prothean relics but will otherwise let Virmirean independence pass without issue. After that, we can negotiate a military alliance or at least an NAP with the Citadel (If we decide to form our own faction) and wartime trading measures. Once the war ends, we renegotiate pretty much everything to be a fully independent member nation of the Citadel with the ability to have a large standing military as a key point.
[X][TIMING] Veto, you belligerent idiots.
[X][BUOYS] General Distress Call
[X][BUOYS] Update the Maps
[X][BUOYS] Reconnaissance Pulse
We can call a referendum.
We can first establish international chops by fucking up Rachni, then, with political leverage and Rachni on backfoot thanks to us (and we will milk the political hell out of any backslide they suffer because of us if we want to go independent) declare independence.
There are other angles too.
Declaring Independence while asking for help and not even having a single dreadnought to back it up while the whole galaxy is in the existential war against ostensibly common enemy is just ridiculous and premature as all hell.
So what you're saying is, we're already an independent nation in every way that actually matters except that we've just never really gotten around to formalizing the fact we're a colony that makes colonies and is therefore not a colony.
None of our current salarian population (~44% tot. pop.) was alive when we still had contact with the Citadel and most of our batarian population (~27% tot. pop.) that remember life before the war were malcontents in the Hegemony. The volus (~12%) don't seem terribly upset about us doing our own thing. The only race that has issues over breaking off are the asari (~17% tot. pop.) ranging from matriarchs that think Virmirean independence is a fad to maidens that believe it is the way forward.
None of this is true though.
The only adults who don't remember life as Citadel citizens are salarians. Batarians live to 150, Volus to 250, asari to a thousand.
Some of the batarians we got are malcontents, but some aren't; this is not the Batarian Hegemony of the 2100s.
Like I pointed out earlier, of all the people who stood for election last time, none of them had Virmire independence as an electoral issue. And we had an Asari standing for office on the platform of making friends with the Rachni.
Declaring independence just isn't something that's a pressing issue for most Virmireans; the status quo is just fine as is.
If we're going to change a comfortable status quo, we need to be damn sure we have all our ducks in a row in advance.
Not winging it while trying to avoid becoming dinner.
Quite the opposite.
We are functionally independent and have been for at least fifteen years, so public declarations only get us a fancy new flag, and a bunch of new obligations.
Before actually declaring independence, we want to know what state current international relations is in.
If there are defence treaties that we can get in on, or financial aid we can source while nominally a Citadel planet that are barred to non-members, we want in.
Trade tariffs. Export restrictions. Diplomacy. All this stuff needs to be in order prior to any declarations, not after.
I would like to avoid anything like the RL clusterfucks we've seen.
Going off your last post about the Citadel's stance on independence and joining, they probably will grumble about mining rights and sharing Prothean relics but will otherwise let Virmirean independence pass without issue.
Yes, I fully expect them to let us go without issue, barring negotiations about possibly external debt.
That still means immediate paperwork and bottlenecks.
Trade relations. Export restrictions on weaponry and industrial gear. IP rights. Citizenship and migration rights. Travel restrictions.
The Doha Round of the WTO has been going on and off since 2001.
And that only represents a couple billion people.
After that, we can negotiate a military alliance or at least an NAP with the Citadel (If we decide to form our own faction) and wartime trading measures.
The last time you want to start renegotiating military alliances and treaties is when you are literally in the middle of a war.
The more so when we are explicitly the smaller, weaker side in the deal, and the side with the weaker negotiating hand, who will explicitly die without getting external reinforcements, and for whom it's more pressing.
Recall exactly what our negotiations with the lystheni are like, and the fact that we could have squeezed them, but forbear to.
The Citadel comparatively outclass us much more than we outclass the lystheni, and they could squeeze us by accident.
Adhoc vote count started by uju32 on Jan 11, 2018 at 4:05 AM, finished with 7897 posts and 54 votes.
[X][BUOYS] Update the Maps: You can't count on a brief call to give you all the information you'll need to direct your breakout efforts. Ping the Rachni comms network for a detailed update on what exactly their held space is presently. Updates galaxy map to accurately reflect the present state of Rachni-held relays.
Like, independence per se is not a bad thing, but:
What do we get from it?
What do we get from proclaiming it here and now?
What do we lose from not going independent here and now?
What do we lose from going independent here and now?
My answers are, pretty much:
Financial and decision-making freedom.
Absolutely fucking nothing since we already have factual freedom.
Nothing.
We lose loyalty of pro-Citadel Asari and other longer-living species; also we lose sane diplomatic posture when issuing a General Distress Call.
All in all, in vacuum Independence sounds cool, but in practice right now it's a useless waste of time which will lead to a variety of internal and external complications.
This isn't true. They ordered abandonment of colonies they couldn't defend; that means evacuation.
We're a planet of six billion(five billion then); evacuation was not possible.
Then the Council left you all to die. This somewhat soured things, particularly given that the Council's insistence right up to the moment their fleets pulled out of Attican Beta and the Rachni blew the comm buoys was that everything was perfectly fine, no need to even mobilize those expensive-looking warships you have there. Your first indication that you'd been abandoned was a comms blackout and a Rachni fleet pouring through the relay. As a side note, you can't imagine that this was popular with the Citadel's military if they were even aware of it until it happened.
No, our claim to independence lies in self-determination.
We could up and vote a referendum to secede in peacetime and it would still be legal as long as it had popular support.
The Council does not coerce people into staying; it's a cross between the UN, NATO and EU, it's not a federation.
Especially given that under Citadel law, there is no provision for your independence. Technically speaking, they would be well within their legal rights to take you in hand, should you make a fuss.
2)We live in the Attican Traverse, the border between the Terminus and the Citadel.
Where the Citadel avoids pushing into to avoid raising military tensions.
The Terminus you're talking about is not yet exist.
Right now it's just a bunch of colonies that were abandoned by the Citadel (just like us) and lucky enough to not draw the Rachni attention (unlike us).
It's possible that the Citadel tried to reintegrate them back after the war, and only Krogan Rebellions stop them.
I don't believe in it. Even if they didn't care yesterday, tomorrow they will find out that their Prime Minister refused to formally declare something obvious for the majority of our population.
But if you're correct, by the same token minority shouldn't care about our Declaration. From their standpoint of extremely long-lived species we're already independent in all except the name and that's mean nothing. The war will end soon enough, the Citadel will return its status of galactic superpower, and Virmire will be reintegrated.
