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Terminus Quest: A CKII Mass Effect Quest
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
You're not really addressing my point, and maybe Uju's.
It's not "the Citadel will abandon us if we declare independence." It's:
"Right now, we have a huge deficit of information on the Citadel, its war effort, and how much territory it holds. Information on this may impact the details of how we declare independence, how we pitch it to various factions remaining within Citadel space, and what we do with our new independent status in our first few decades as an independent nation. Declaring now, rather than waiting a year or two for more information, is likely to heavily precommit us on questions that we might want to think about. Furthermore, it will complicate relations with the Citadel, and it will complicate them in a way we aren't going to have any ability to manage, spin, or keep under control for some time. They might well form a prejudicial opinion of us long before we have a chance to interact with them, for instance."
pbluekan
Somethin's Fucky ...
- Location
- Trumpistan
- Pronouns
- He/Him
[X][TIMING] Veto, you belligerent idiots.
[X][BUOYS] Update the Maps
[X][BUOYS] Reconnaissance Pulse
[X][BUOYS] Reconnaissance Pulse x2
There is at least one occupied jump between us and Citadel space, and the last time we had a map update was over twenty years ago. Twenty years of a losing war. We are well behind enemy lines and I doubt either of us have the strength to push and hold without losing severely on other fronts.
True, we are bigger now, but I doubt we are big enough for the citadel to allow to remain autonomous or semiautonomous after the war is over. That is the concern here.
[X][BUOYS] Update the Maps
[X][BUOYS] Reconnaissance Pulse
[X][BUOYS] Reconnaissance Pulse x2
There is plenty of evidence. Based on what we know of from wiki sources, the Citadel was losing horribly up until the krogan were uplifted and sicced on the rachni. Logically, this means they are on the defensive and are likely losing colonies.
There is at least one occupied jump between us and Citadel space, and the last time we had a map update was over twenty years ago. Twenty years of a losing war. We are well behind enemy lines and I doubt either of us have the strength to push and hold without losing severely on other fronts.
True, we are bigger now, but I doubt we are big enough for the citadel to allow to remain autonomous or semiautonomous after the war is over. That is the concern here.
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- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
Uh... we have a 90% or higher approval rating and an absolute veto. We totally CAN veto this, ESPECIALLY if we pitch it as the same people opposing the veto are already doing in the thread: Namely, that we want at least the faintest clue what is going on in the larger galaxy before we nail our colors to the mast and commit not only to independence, but to the exact terms and conditions on which we will assert independence. And precommitting on the tactics and stance we take. Before even exploring or considering, say, the option of (for instance) playing off the Citadel races against each other to help ensure our bid for independence is relatively stronger.
In canon the rachni weren't dealing with as many holdouts behind their lines because they'd already killed us. Furthermore, we KNOW that Poptart is to some extent rolling for how the Citadel fares against the rachni. You can just assume "lol they are losing," but I don't think that we should treat it as a given that they're losing as hard as you think.
Aside from, y'know, how that's pretty metagamey.
If that's your concern, how is it helping to declare independence faster? The Council won't be more inclined to accept our postwar independence just because we declared it before firing off our beacon, rather than leaving our status ambiguous until full diplomatic communications were established then asserting independence.
pbluekan
Somethin's Fucky ...
- Location
- Trumpistan
- Pronouns
- He/Him
True enough. I'll leave off on that, I try not to metagame if I can help it.
This was more in regards to contacting them at all. I'm generally of the opinion that we should leave off until we have a slightly longer resume to wave.
This isn't true. On both points.
1) It's the first major piece of legislation to reach our desk, not literally the first thing they passed.
I quote:
2) At 95 percent plus popularity, we can afford to eat a couple vetos.
Because if it goes wrong, we WILL be blamed, not the legislature.
The veto is supposed to put brakes on this sort of shit.
Hell, I would be amused to find that they EXPECT us to veto it like a responsible person.
Just like the US Republican party kept passing repeal Obamacare laws while Obama was in office, because they expected him to veto them.
Canon says they were fighting a losing war for a century, not that they were losing horribly.
Nothing indicates loss of any core worlds, or anything other than early colonies; Virmire was never colonized in canon.
The salarians remained capable of literally uplifting the krogan, after first moving them to a new world, in the middle of said war.
They basically built an entire nation then turned them loose.
That is not the behavior of a nation strapped for resources in the middle of a major war.
The Citadel are not the Borg. They do not assimilate people willy nilly. Look at the entirety of the Terminus systems for an example.
Independent asari colonies were a thing in canon; the Batarians annexed at least one of them, Esan, in 1913.
The Quarians didn't have many worlds either, and were kicked out after the geth rebellion.
Furthermore, we're literally situated in the Attican Traverse, the buffer area between the Terminus and the Citadel.
Of all the places for independence, this is it.
The Citadel is not going to strongarm us here; if anything, they are more likely to want a deniable catspaw who can do things they'd like but don't want to be caught doing.
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- Location
- the Moon
- Pronouns
- He/Him
I'm voting Veto because it has a better chance of pissing off the Lystheni and won't immediately impact us either way.
We swore up and down we were unaffiliated with the council, but now that they look like they're trying to stab us in the back... we have no choice but to keep our options open
We swore up and down we were unaffiliated with the council, but now that they look like they're trying to stab us in the back... we have no choice but to keep our options open
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You might want to edit your vote to be in a straight line.
As it is, it won't count.
While I do agree with your vote, it behooves me to point out that we don't know if they are trying to stab us in the back. Yet.
If there was a nation next door with the equivalent of multiple aircraft carriers and nuclear missile submarines, I'd be investing in my military too.
- Location
- Third planet from the star named Sol
- Pronouns
- He/They
@PoptartProdigy I've seen a few people claim that the declaration of independence is the first thing the Assembly voted on, and I find myself skeptical, although I don't doubt it's the first thing that's had such unanimous support behind it from the legislators. What are the circumstances around this bill? How far into the Assembly's life did it take for this bill to get proposed, and how many legislators have talked long and hard about it?
for now though.
[X][TIMING] Veto, you belligerent idiots.
for now though.
[X][TIMING] Veto, you belligerent idiots.
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
What, longer than "hi, we're a heavily fortified enclave behind enemy lines that you left for dead a full salarian lifetime ago, who have several capital ships and have seized or are in the process of seizing multiple star clusters from the rachni?"
If that isn't going to get their attention in a constructive way and earn a bit of respect, nothing will.
- Location
- Canada
[X][TIMING] Veto, you belligerent idiots.
[X][BUOYS] General Distress Call
[X][BUOYS] Update the Maps
[X][BUOYS] Reconnaissance Pulse
[X][BUOYS] General Distress Call
[X][BUOYS] Update the Maps
[X][BUOYS] Reconnaissance Pulse
Woohoo.
Check out our cash reserves. Might be able to afford a little ambition for once.
- Coupled with the diceroll of 93 on the background, I'm becoming pretty nervous on the silence on the military front. Maybe the Batarians got murked?
At least we pulled 20k/turn off the Kepler Verge system.
And speaking of the Kepler Verge campaign: Lol
- Free Movement seems to have increased the baseline income rate of mines by 50%.
SO30 would have been producing 15,000 under the old rules as a HQ mine, but is now producing 22,000.
We may be able to increase the FDO's budget next turn.
I'm beginning to suspect the FDO has ambitions on becoming a Cabinet level ministry, or at least agency, in it's own right.
-Sneaky Lystheni are sneaky. At least that navy isn't completely unknown anymore.
And we can invest in fortifications to match, in the event they go craycray.
-The Comm Buoy Action is pending.
And I'm waiting to see what our new Hero can pull off; barring a botch, he is likely to roll high enough to apply his rolls to all three Comm Buoy actions.
Assuming they are rolled separately.
- Location
- Australia
[X][TIMING] Pass. Virmire First.
[X][BUOYS] General Distress Call:
[X][BUOYS] Update the Maps:
[X][BUOYS] Reconnaissance Pulse:
Since most of the people voting veto are voting it because they want to delay our independence until we have more information from the Citadel side, I have a couple extra things to point out. First of all, one General Distress Call doesn't give us enough time to get detailed information on the Citadel battle fronts. Even if we used two GDCs I'm still unsure we'd have enough time to find out what you people want to know, or that whoever we contact would both have that knowledge and the willingness to share it. (Then again, this is speculation.) Second of all, Virmire already sees itself as independent and this vote is to make it official. Even if we could somehow delay our decision making for later, I don't see the benefit of pissing off the people we've sworn to serve by doing so when they'll still want independence no matter what we find out.
[X][BUOYS] General Distress Call:
[X][BUOYS] Update the Maps:
[X][BUOYS] Reconnaissance Pulse:
Since most of the people voting veto are voting it because they want to delay our independence until we have more information from the Citadel side, I have a couple extra things to point out. First of all, one General Distress Call doesn't give us enough time to get detailed information on the Citadel battle fronts. Even if we used two GDCs I'm still unsure we'd have enough time to find out what you people want to know, or that whoever we contact would both have that knowledge and the willingness to share it. (Then again, this is speculation.) Second of all, Virmire already sees itself as independent and this vote is to make it official. Even if we could somehow delay our decision making for later, I don't see the benefit of pissing off the people we've sworn to serve by doing so when they'll still want independence no matter what we find out.
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
Given their current responsibility for all the colonies, this ambition isn't entirely unreasonable on their part. It's a big job.
At a bare minimum, I want to wait until we know which clusters the rachni hold. Maybe no more, but that much at least.
It'd also be nice to, y'know, talk about this, in-game and out-of-game, and get a bit of a sense for the terms on which a proposed declaration of independence looks, and how people view our cobelligerent status for the duration of the war.
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It should be pointed out that The Citadel will be helping us whether they know about us or not. They will be fighting the war to the best of their ability because their own survival is at stake. Knowing we exist might be nice for them but it isn't going to affect their strategic situation. They cannot reach us. They cannot coordinate with us. All they could do is send a message along the lines of 'We are also still alive.' Possibly with 'We expect your back taxes when this is over.' tacked on.
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
The Citadel might specifically do things knowing we're around that they wouldn't otherwise do. For instance, they might exert more pressure along the specific 'tramline' that we're in a position to harass from the rear. Or conversely they might exert more pressure on other fronts in hopes of the rachni thinning out the forces between them and us, so that a breakout becomes possible.
1) GDC does not give us info on battlefronts.
That's from the Reconnaissance Pulse, and the Maps update.
2) There are LOTS of people who may support us, but do not want a formal break with the Citadel, at least not yet.
We have at least one in our own Cabinet as our chief of staff. If the Assembly vote is represenative of the population, that's 1 in 4 people.
Pissing them off is also a consideration, especially in a war where we're putting all hands on deck just to keep up.
As you said, Virmire is de facto independent, with it's own military, government and foreign policy.
Why do we need to antagonize the quiet voters just so we can change names and flags? Let sleeping dogs lie until we know more about the state of the galaxy and the Council.
True.
- Location
- United States
Vetoing this now and sending a distress signal are just going to hurt our chances at maintaining independence. Let's say the Citadel actually does help us. How is that a good thing? Our claim to independence relies on the fact that the Citadel abandoned Virmire. If they come help again, they could easily play it to their people as 'We put in so much effort to save them but the ungrateful bastards are trying to secede' and build up support to put down the rebellion. They probably wouldn't succeed because of war-weariness, but why give them the ammo? I'm also not convinced we actually need the Citadel's help.
- Location
- the Moon
- Pronouns
- He/Him
We don't all die horrible, chitinous deaths at the hands of the rachini. Let's not forget, one of their queens already has beef with us.
As you can tell, I disagree that we don't need the citadel