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Behind the Serpent Throne (CK2)

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Merchants are the lowest class. Why would a reform that helps them appeal to nobles?
 
Bakkasama said:
Merchants are the lowest class. Why would a reform that helps them appeal to nobles?
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Because it means wealthier nobles with more luxuries.
Got to spin it in a way that benefits them.
Random Member said:
They do feel threatened, hence the whole moon talk. But that's also one of the points of the military reform action, to assuage their fear and convince them of "the lack of threat of the military, or rather their capacity to be controlled".
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Yes, which is why I doubt it somewhat since recent events would make it hard to consider that the military can be easily corralled.
 
veekie said:
Yes, which is why I doubt it somewhat since recent events would make it hard to consider that the military can be easily corralled.
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Be that as it may, if we don't pick that option they're still going to feel threatened by the military and thus by us as well. And I have confidence in Kiralo's bullshitting skills that he can lessen those fears. It is a major concern of them, otherwise they wouldn't spend half their time implying Kiralo is the moon that they fear.
 
[] The necessity and virtue of the agricultural reforms, even to the extent that they seem designed to aid the merchant.

Going by my limited knowledge of Chinese thought, the merchants are considered the lowest class, so arguing that the reforms benefit the merchants seems misguided. If we want agricultural reforms, we should stress the benefit to the farmers, who are much more respectable (at least in theory.)

[X] The usefulness of military reforms, and the lack of threat of the military, or rather their capacity to be controlled.

This sounds useful, as it is adresses their fears and supports a reform that is of particular interest to Kiralo.

[] The importance and justice of centralization and bureaucratization, and its lack of danger for these men and their interests.

Arguing that scholar-officials are best suited to provide justice should also go well with a group of scholars.

[X] The filial piety of Kiralo towards his father, and the possibility of rewards stretching even beyond whatever time the Gods choose for Kuojah to pass beyond the stream of life.

Filial piety is an important virtue and establishing Kiralo as heir to Kuojah may help preserve some of the influence that Kuojah has acquired.

I am undecided between the last three, but for now I will vote like this.
 
Gingganz said:
[] The necessity and virtue of the agricultural reforms, even to the extent that they seem designed to aid the merchant.

Going by my limited knowledge of Chinese thought, the merchants are considered the lowest class, so arguing that the reforms benefit the merchants seems misguided. If we want agricultural reforms, we should stress the benefit to the farmers, who are much more respectable (at least in theory.)
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Playing devil's advocate here, but the way it is worded implies that Kiralo won't argue that the reforms benefiting merchants is a good thing but rather that they are needed for a variety of reasons and because of that they should still support them, despite the fact that it might help merchants.
 
Random Member said:
Playing devil's advocate here, but the way it is worded implies that Kiralo won't argue that the reforms benefiting merchants is a good thing but rather that they are needed for a variety of reasons and because of that they should still support them, despite the fact that it might help merchants.
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One thing to note is that in choosing this argument, you do get to learn a bit more about the specifics/details of the reforms. Which is a sort of grey area? Like, Kiralo obviously knows all of it, but short of some sort of info-dump, I'm not sure how to give more than generalities unless more than generalities matter. So in one sense, any of the first three options leads to explication of policy.
 
Random Member said:
Playing devil's advocate here, but the way it is worded implies that Kiralo won't argue that the reforms benefiting merchants is a good thing but rather that they are needed for a variety of reasons and because of that they should still support them, despite the fact that it might help merchants.
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Well, but why mention them at all? It is not as if being a merchant is some unclean and despicable profession, so it is certainly not an inherent flaw if the reforms benefit the merchants.
 
Inserted tally
Adhoc vote count started by Gingganz on Sep 16, 2017 at 2:56 PM, finished with 15 posts and 5 votes.
  • [X] The filial piety of Kiralo towards his father, and the possibility of rewards stretching even beyond whatever time the Gods choose for Kuojah to pass beyond the stream of life.
    [X] The usefulness of military reforms, and the lack of threat of the military, or rather their capacity to be controlled.
    [X] The necessity and virtue of the agricultural reforms, even to the extent that they seem designed to aid the merchant.
    [X] The importance and justice of centralization and bureaucratization, and its lack of danger for these men and their interests.
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[x] The necessity and virtue of the agricultural reforms, even to the extent that they seem designed to aid the merchant.


[x] The importance and justice of centralization and bureaucratization, and its lack of danger for these men and their interests.
 
Alright, since the military option isn't all that popular, I'll switch my vote.
Deathbybunnies said:
This seems like the important one, given their specific concerns?
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The Laurent said:
It's not their only concern. But it is the one that they bring up first, certainly. Or perhaps second.
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This makes me think they care more about the centralization than the agricultural reforms, so:

[X] The importance and justice of centralization and bureaucratization, and its lack of danger for these men and their interests.
[X] The filial piety of Kiralo towards his father, and the possibility of rewards stretching even beyond whatever time the Gods choose for Kuojah to pass beyond the stream of life.
 
Indecisive flip-flopper:

[X] The importance and justice of centralization and bureaucratization, and its lack of danger for these men and their interests.
[X] The filial piety of Kiralo towards his father, and the possibility of rewards stretching even beyond whatever time the Gods choose for Kuojah to pass beyond the stream of life.
 
[X] The necessity and virtue of the agricultural reforms, even to the extent that they seem designed to aid the merchant.
[X] The filial piety of Kiralo towards his father, and the possibility of rewards stretching even beyond whatever time the Gods choose for Kuojah to pass beyond the stream of life.
 
[x] The necessity and virtue of the agricultural reforms, even to the extent that they seem designed to aid the merchant.


[X] The filial piety of Kiralo towards his father, and the possibility of rewards stretching even beyond whatever time the Gods choose for Kuojah to pass beyond the stream of life.
 
Let me make one last-ditch attempt to argue for centralization.
The Laurent said:
They were afraid that this was overreach. There was a traditionalism that feared that too much Imperial interference in noble affairs was a mistake, from a practical perspective. Not a matter of the Emperor being in any way inferior to them, but in the difficulties and limitations of the world and of propriety, for the nobility had a purpose.
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Centralization in general is one of their biggest concerns. The agricultural reforms are no doubt also a concern for them, but their concern for centralization is the one they bring up first, after their concerns about the military, so it's likely to be higher on their list. If we can convince them that it's really not a problem, they will be much less opposed to the reforms in general while simply convincing them on the agricultural reforms will still leave them unconvinced on the rest. And if we pick agricultural reforms along with filial piety, which is the most-voted option currently, we are basically ignoring what I think are their two biggest concerns, the military and centralization.
 
[X] The importance and justice of centralization and bureaucratization, and its lack of danger for these men and their interests.
[X] The filial piety of Kiralo towards his father, and the possibility of rewards stretching even beyond whatever time the Gods choose for Kuojah to pass beyond the stream of life.
 
[x] The necessity and virtue of the agricultural reforms, even to the extent that they seem designed to aid the merchant.


[X] The filial piety of Kiralo towards his father, and the possibility of rewards stretching even beyond whatever time the Gods choose for Kuojah to pass beyond the stream of life.
 
Thank you for your votes. Though, unfortunately, it's still tied.
Adhoc vote count started by The Laurent on Sep 17, 2017 at 7:53 PM, finished with 30 posts and 10 votes.
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[X] The necessity and virtue of the agricultural reforms, even to the extent that they seem designed to aid the merchant.

Tie breaker, then? I'm not convinced the extra efficiency of a central government is the way to go.
 
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