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City Building in Middle-Earth

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[X] Official or not, this is a patricide.
[X] Send three population to settle the Blue Mountains (-16 Gold, +3 Stone, +3 Metal, Farm/Quarry/Mine/Housing):-16 gold, +3 Stone, + 3 Metal, +3 Food
--[X] Empty the mercantile district. -2 Gold/turn
[X] Small Stone Civic District (-5 Gold, -2 Stone, +1 Prestige)
----[X] Establish Houses of Healing (-2 Gold, +2 Prosperity)
--[X] Convert to Stone Housing (-2 Gold, +2 Wood Store, -2 Stone, +1 Prestige)


Special Actions
-[X] Send messengers to Imladris and to the Havens, letting them know of our survival and how we fare now, and asking if they have any new tidings of the Enemy. Thank them for their aid against the Witch King.
-[X] Put together a small picked band of men from our Militia and the Chieftain's retinue. These will be the first of our rangers, and they will roam far and wide watching our borders.
 
Easter said:
It also could be that the mother slept with the victim and the child found out about it(or finally got to a breaking point) and confronted the victim thus the argument and why the mother refuses to talk since she doesn't want to be looked down upon by others.
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This is not the darkest possibility. Not by far. Please draw your own conclusions.

Some quotes regarding the situation:

"By all accounts the Dunedain man was warm and kind to children."

"The woman has borne him no children, and given her recalcitrance it's difficult to establish if they ever actually slept together or not."

"and from the scattered tribe they took wives and the young as spoils, for the people of Arthedain had had lost their own."

"The boy in question was about eight years old"

"There was an altercation the day of the murder that the mother will not be drawn on, only that they were arguing, and the boy stabbed Andreth later in the evening while meals were being prepared."

It is also very interesting that everyone is very tight-lipped about it.

"The boy has a history of being surly and disrespectful" - is he just born that way, or is there a good reason to be so?

There are multiple ways of interpreting these quotes, with responsibility ranging from the boy completely at fault to the man being at fault. Context matters, guys.

@Sayle @Admiral Skippy
 
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BrightFusion said:
This is not the darkest possibility. Not by far. Please draw your own conclusions.

Some quotes regarding the situation:

"By all accounts the Dunedain man was warm and kind to children."

"The woman has borne him no children, and given her recalcitrance it's difficult to establish if they ever actually slept together or not."

"and from the scattered tribe they took wives and the young as spoils, for the people of Arthedain had had lost their own."

"The boy in question was about eight years old"

"There was an altercation the day of the murder that the mother will not be drawn on, only that they were arguing, and the boy stabbed Andreth later in the evening while meals were being prepared."

It is also very interesting that everyone is very tight-lipped about it.

There are multiple ways of interpreting these quotes, with responsibility ranging from the boy completely at fault to the man being at fault. Context matters, guys.

@Sayle
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... so it sounds like you believe the man was abusing the women, and that the child acted in the defense of his mother, despite the fact that it was long after the altercation that the boy killed the man instead of in the middle of it, so no the boy is still at fault.
 
SpeckofStardust said:
... so it sounds like you believe the man was abusing the women, and that the child acted in the defense of his mother, despite the fact that it was long after the altercation that the boy killed the man instead of in the middle of it, so no the boy is still at fault.
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No. I was hinting that it may be possible that the man was abusing the boy, possibly for a long time.

There are some things that are not comfortable to explain, and tbh I didn't feel at ease either when typing my posts regarding this case. I really don't want to be any more explicit regarding sensitive matters; there was a good reason I made my argument entirely using quotes from Sayle. Please draw your own conclusions.

Edit: If it's still not clear enough, I'd put it this way - the boy might be the victim.

[X] Have the boy brought before us. Ask him to recount what happened in his own words and look into his mind as he does.
--[X] Decide our ruling and if any clemency should be given based upon that.
 
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SpeckofStardust said:
... so it sounds like you believe the man was abusing the women, and that the child acted in the defense of his mother, despite the fact that it was long after the altercation that the boy killed the man instead of in the middle of it, so no the boy is still at fault.
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It sounds to me that it's possible that the man was abusing the boy in a way I can't really talk about on this site, it's possible enough that we need to find out anyway.
 
[x] If the boy was not adopted, it is murder.
[X] Send three population to settle the Blue Mountains (-16 Gold, +3 Stone, +3 Metal, Farm/Quarry/Mine/Housing):-16 gold, +3 Stone, + 3 Metal, +3 Food
--[X] Empty the mercantile district. -2 Gold/turn
[X] Small Stone Civic District (-5 Gold, -2 Stone, +1 Prestige)
----[X] Establish Houses of Healing (-2 Gold, +2 Prosperity)
--[X] Convert to Stone Housing (-2 Gold, +2 Wood Store, -2 Stone, +1 Prestige)

@Sayle Can we still trade even if both of our mercantile districts are depopulated/empty?
 
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BrightFusion said:
This is not the darkest possibility. Not by far. Please draw your own conclusions.

Some quotes regarding the situation:

"By all accounts the Dunedain man was warm and kind to children."

"The woman has borne him no children, and given her recalcitrance it's difficult to establish if they ever actually slept together or not."

"and from the scattered tribe they took wives and the young as spoils, for the people of Arthedain had had lost their own."

"The boy in question was about eight years old"

"There was an altercation the day of the murder that the mother will not be drawn on, only that they were arguing, and the boy stabbed Andreth later in the evening while meals were being prepared."

It is also very interesting that everyone is very tight-lipped about it.

"The boy has a history of being surly and disrespectful" - is he just born that way, or is there a good reason to be so?

There are multiple ways of interpreting these quotes, with responsibility ranging from the boy completely at fault to the man being at fault. Context matters, guys.

@Sayle @Admiral Skippy
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That was my take as well, hence why I wanted to be sure about this. Events are suspicious, specially given the age of the child and, therefore I think we need to have better insight before we decide one way or the other
 
This is why I think it really might be a good idea to look into the boy's mind and find out what his motive was, and if there were extenuating circumstances. We don't want to execute a child for defending his mother and killing a man by accident. On further thought it may have been an overreach to try to use it to determine whether this is patricide or not -that's more a legal question- but there's no reason not to for informing our ruling. It can't really hurt, you know?

So I would urge everyone to add this:
--[X] Have the boy brought before us, and ask him to give his account of events. Look into his mind as he does, and use this to inform our ruling, and whether any clemency should be given for one so young.

To their vote.
 
I'd put it this way - I do not know of any legal system that would pronounce judgement before the full facts of a case are known and reasonable attempts have been made to gather information. If that's how Arnor's laws work, their kingdom's decline is not surprising at all.

We do not have info to decide either way, but the way I am seeing it suggests that. After all:

1. Why would the boy choose to attack the man on that particular day?
2. What made him so angry that he had to kill the man? Most people don't kill on a whim - there must be a reason.
3. Why the secrecy behind the motives? We literally know nothing about the context of this case.

@Admiral Skippy I think it's possible that the boy was abused himself, rather than his mother. If the killing was in self-defense, I don't see any reason to bring charges against him.

Right of self-defense - Wikipedia

At any case, this is just the worst case scenario - but we really need to know more info about the case. Hence I'll stick to my vote supporting Admiral Skippy:

[X] Have the boy brought before us. Ask him to recount what happened in his own words and look into his mind as he does.
--[X] Decide our ruling and if any clemency should be given based upon that.
 
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[x] If the boy was not adopted, it is murder.
[X] Send three population to settle the Blue Mountains (-16 Gold, +3 Stone, +3 Metal, Farm/Quarry/Mine/Housing):-16 gold, +3 Stone, + 3 Metal, +3 Food
--[X] Empty the mercantile district. -2 Gold/turn
[X] Small Stone Civic District (-5 Gold, -2 Stone, +1 Prestige)
----[X] Establish Houses of Healing (-2 Gold, +2 Prosperity)
--[X] Convert to Stone Housing (-2 Gold, +2 Wood Store, -2 Stone, +1 Prestige)
 
[X] Have the boy brought before us. Ask him to recount what happened in his own words and look into his mind as he does.
--[X] Decide our ruling and if any clemency should be given based upon that.
 
[X] Have the boy brought before us. Ask him to recount what happened in his own words and look into his mind as he does.
--[X] Decide our ruling and if any clemency should be given based upon that.
 
[X] Have the boy brought before us. Ask him to recount what happened in his own words and look into his mind as he does.
--[X] Decide our ruling and if any clemency should be given based upon that.
[X] Send three Population to settle the Blue Mountains (-16 Gold, +3 Stone, +3 Metal, Farm/Quarry/Mine/Housing):-16 gold, +3 Stone, + 3 Metal, +3 Food
--[X] Empty the mercantile district. -2 Gold/turn
[X] Small Stone Civic District (-5 Gold, -2 Stone, +1 Prestige)
----[X] Establish Houses of Healing (-2 Gold, +2 Prosperity)
--[X] Convert to Stone Housing (-2 Gold, +2 Wood Store, -2 Stone, +1 Prestige)

Special Actions
-[X] Send messengers to Imladris and to the Havens, letting them know of our survival and how we fare now, and asking if they have any new tidings of the Enemy. Thank them for their aid against the Witch King.
-[X] Put together a small picked band of men from our Militia and the Chieftain's retinue. These will be the first of our rangers, and they will roam far and wide watching our borders.
 
[X] Have the boy brought before us. Ask him to recount what happened in his own words and look into his mind as he does.
--[X] Decide our ruling and if any clemency should be given based upon that.
 
[X] Have the boy brought before us. Ask him to recount what happened in his own words and look into his mind as he does.
--[X] Decide our ruling and if any clemency should be given based upon that.
[X] Send three Population to settle the Blue Mountains (-16 Gold, +3 Stone, +3 Metal, Farm/Quarry/Mine/Housing):-16 gold, +3 Stone, + 3 Metal, +3 Food
--[X] Empty the mercantile district. -2 Gold/turn
[X] Small Stone Civic District (-5 Gold, -2 Stone, +1 Prestige)
----[X] Establish Houses of Healing (-2 Gold, +2 Prosperity)
--[X] Convert to Stone Housing (-2 Gold, +2 Wood Store, -2 Stone, +1 Prestige)

Special Actions
-[X] Send messengers to Imladris and to the Havens, letting them know of our survival and how we fare now, and asking if they have any new tidings of the Enemy. Thank them for their aid against the Witch King.
-[X] Put together a small picked band of men from our Militia and the Chieftain's retinue. These will be the first of our rangers, and they will roam far and wide watching our borders.
 
[X] If the boy was not adopted, it is murder.
[X] Have the boy brought before us. Ask him to recount what happened in his own words and look into his mind as he does.
--[X] Decide our ruling and if any clemency should be given based upon that.
[x] Send two population to settle the Blue Mountains (-14 Gold, +3 Stone, Pasture/Quarry/Housing)
--[x] Establish Woodworker's Quarter (-2 Gold, -2 Taxes, 2 Lebethron Converted to 2 Hardwood per turn)
Special Actions
-[X] Send messengers to Imladris and to the Havens, letting them know of our survival and how we fare now, and asking if they have any new tidings of the Enemy. Thank them for their aid against the Witch King.
-[X] Put together a small picked band of men from our Militia and the Chieftain's retinue. These will be the first of our rangers, and they will roam far and wide watching our borders.
 
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Judgement
  • Threadmarks
    • The boy was wild and had to be held by the arms before the Chief, his hands bound. When his account was demanded by the steward he said nothing, and his gaze was one of hatred. When the guards disciplined him Arvedui raised a hand, and demanded the child speak. "Wulf son of Hilda," he said. "By your words your fate will be sealed: speak." So the boy spoke and from his clumsy tongue he wove a tale of barbarians who stole him from his home and a man who beat him when he refused to respect him. He spoke of his mother who ever grieved for his father and endured the attentions of a foreigner, and cried when she thought he could not hear. He did his duty as a son and protected his mother from a cruel man.

    At this there was a great disquiet among the gathered men, who had not heard such a thing before, but still others went still and angry at the slight at Andreth, who had been their comrade. Arvedui listened silently, and when the boy finished his story stepped forward and the Lord of the Dunedain took the boy's chin in his hand to peer into his eyes. There he stood for many moments, and a shadow passed over his face like a storm over the sun. He stepped back then and ordered the child's bonds be cut, and they were. "Son of Hilda," he said, "you have shed the blood of my kin, and the penalty for that is death. There are those who say that it was the act of a son killing a father, and in truth Andreth of Fornost Erain took you into his home as though you were his son, and had he died by any other means what was his would have been yours. Yet you slew him with intention, and that desire you had kept it your heart many years."

    Here he stood to his full height. "Hatred has shorn you of kindness," Arvedui said. "Were this all you would have had some measure of pity, but that hatred has made you cunning and sly, and it has strangled all things good in you. Go now from this place and perish in the woods that bore you." Then the boy let out a cry and threw his arm over his face as though some great pain struck him, and he fled at once. When the guards moved to stop him the chieftain put out his hand. "Let him go," he said. "He will trouble man no more, and perhaps his spirit will find peace in the place of his forefathers."

    [ ] New population should fill empty districts if they are available.
    [ ] Stop timeskips to assign new population.
    Adhoc vote count started by Sayle on Apr 28, 2017 at 3:42 AM, finished with 503 posts and 14 votes.
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  • Threadmarks
    • ...huh. damn. So either arvedui is mad biased or andreth was mostly innocent
     
    Thanks guys, exile the barbarian into the woods despite him performing murder because he could have mitigating circumstances. Bah.
     
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