Last Light of a Dark Age (Warhammer 29K/Disco Elysium)

30k Legions had horrific attrition rates and we know it was common in the early GC to take what would be seen as Scouts in 40k, put them in heavy gear, throw them at the frontlines, and then feed the flesh/brains of the death to new Recruits and survivors so that they'd immediately inherit some of the skills and memories, and then repeat the cycle.

Multiple Legions went nearly extinct before the rediscovery of their Primarchs. And after that, such practices fell out of favor.

Actually I suppose these Marines would get along pretty well with Illuminatans.

40k Astartes arent considered Battle Brothers until decades of service in the 10th Company, and by the time they are promoted, they are on average some of the most well trained and experienced warriors in the Galaxy.

Different doctrines, and even then the Legions are reliant on their Primarchs being around to provide fresh genetic samples for new geneseed farms. Something that Chapters do not have and have to carefully husband.
Yeah, I think you're thinking of inducti who were space marines in basically name and body alone, which was only done during the HH when numbers of GC veterans were greatly depleted or the legions were bled to the bone and rapidly needed to replenish their numbers or risk permanent inoperability. Also, 30k era Space Marines had more DAOT tech lying around, but I will give you that armor types improved, and more selective recruitment and longer training periods take place in 40k. It's also fair to point out that the type of combat the space marines were trained and equipped to fight in are vastly different between 30k and 40k. I was merely under the impression that 30k Space Marines had better training and arms due to their primarchs still being around and Mars being able to churn out the good stuff.
Edit: Oh, I see you were talking about the Astartes before they received their legion names. Yeah, I would tend to agree that those Astartes paled to 40k ones in most ways.
Edit: Also, Big E had yet to perfect the Astartes creation process super early on during the GC. And Im sure training, equipment, and recruitment all improved when the primarchs came into the picture.
Edit: Although, would you give me that 30k Astartes were taught to be more tactically flexible and less specialized? In 40k you have alot of chapters good at specific things or areas of combat, like urban warfare, and more average at other things working together, whereas in 30k you have Astartes fighting on many different battlefields, having to adopt tactics on the fly/improvise.
 
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They still have flesh on the outside and their food isn't each other and yet they can't put a functioning state structure together for their lives. Skill issue.
I mean depending on how you consider the Juvenant narco-adepts and vivisector-warlords keeping the monstrous tyrants of the techno-barbarian warrior-aristocracy alive, I think you could make a fairly strong case that the polities and empires of Old Terra are also based on a diet of human flesh and blood.
 
They do. A very common theme in Illuminata interstate theory is the "amniotic death spiral" - countries which lose territory are less able to print new soldiers to recover that territory, while those which gain territory can print more and more. This means that it's hard to recover from a loss of territory, and it biases the planet towards totalitarian state structures that distribute resources to maximize their printing rate.

Unless of course some new technology were to appear that made printing more efficient, effective, and portable...that would be really bad for the current state model on Illuminata, because it would rupture the state's monopoly over the means of reproduction!

Thank Origen nothing like that has appeared in any update.
I've never thought that I would ever hear the phrase, "the means of reproduction" in the context of a serious discussion of state power. Even fictional state power.
 
Just begun my reread and already a hit:
EVENT HORIZON: A perfect dark of such potency that the hylic's connection to its core had been cut like a scalpel, like the appendix, long ago. Deemed a detriment to flourishing, and a danger to themselves. A wall of polished silicon built between the hylic soul and the Nothing that it came to find.

LEGACY FLESH: But it cannot dig. Where there should be mud, it finds plains of polished silicon.

<Then where is the sweet song of death I'm searching for? That bespoke requiem of I? That iconic hard goodbye?>

LEGACY FLESH: Gone. Only phantom images remain of the perfect dark. It has been cut out by a scalpel, like the appendix, long ago. Such ideation was deemed a detriment to flourishing.
I can't believe I thought Mom learning occult magic would go badly. She really was built different.
 
30K Marines vs 40K Marines is a bit...

Both of those categories are covering so much ground it's hard to say anything without having to "Yes and, no but, except for when" it into Swiss Cheese.

There were absolutely Legions like the World Eaters and Iron Warriors "Decant that clone teenager, marinate their brain in hypno conditioning and then get them in power armor and to the front lines by this afternoon" but at the same time there were also formations like the III Legions Palatine Blades or the I's Dreadwing that were just lavished with the kind of resources and institutional support that no Chapter is ever going to be able to provide, and yes, in many ways those units were just about the least efficient use imaginable for those resources and institutional support, conceded, a Codex Compliant Marine who has been through the Scouts and Devastator Squads on their way to the Tacticals will be much more versatile in a variety of roles than the 30K hyperspecialized operator, also conceded.

However Mister Scout To Devastator To Tactical is in a tough spot if he tries to 1v1 for example a Palatine Blade of the Emperor's Children, "While you were learning stealth and how to provide long range support fires I was training in how to win 1v1s."
 
30K Marines vs 40K Marines is a bit...

Both of those categories are covering so much ground it's hard to say anything without having to "Yes and, no but, except for when" it into Swiss Cheese.

There were absolutely Legions like the World Eaters and Iron Warriors "Decant that clone teenager, marinate their brain in hypno conditioning and then get them in power armor and to the front lines by this afternoon" but at the same time there were also formations like the III Legions Palatine Blades or the I's Dreadwing that were just lavished with the kind of resources and institutional support that no Chapter is ever going to be able to provide, and yes, in many ways those units were just about the least efficient use imaginable for those resources and institutional support, conceded, a Codex Compliant Marine who has been through the Scouts and Devastator Squads on their way to the Tacticals will be much more versatile in a variety of roles than the 30K hyperspecialized operator, also conceded.

However Mister Scout To Devastator To Tactical is in a tough spot if he tries to 1v1 for example a Palatine Blade of the Emperor's Children, "While you were learning stealth and how to provide long range support fires I was training in how to win 1v1s."
You forgot the Assault step after Devastator.
 
[X] Lose Control (INTERLACE + INCANDESCENCE - Medium 10 - Roll Twice with 16.67% chance to avoid success on either roll, but if all rolls succeed, suffer worse consequences) {This option is available to you because of BLACKSTAR}.

[X] Reprise. Receive one extra reroll chance with the difficulty set to HEROIC - 15 (72.22% chance to avoid success) Failure will lead to a unique consequence.
 
[X] Fossilize (INTERLACE - Medium 10 - 16.67%Chance to avoid success and preserve axiom) {This option is available to you because of WASHING MACHINE HEART}.
[X] Silence. Accept the psychic damage, and reserve your song for the final confrontation with the dreamshape.
 
Looks to me like voting is dying down. Setting a deadline. Get your votes and discussion in before then!
 
The current vote count is Crash Out-8 votes, Fossilize-11 votes, Lose Control-19 votes, Burn Away-2 votes, Reprise-17 votes, Tonal Fusion-1 votes, Dissonance-12 votes, and Silence-14 votes.
I hope this helps since this is an important vote. I would say that lose control looks like what will end up winning, but silence is close behind Reprise by only 3 votes.
 
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Circling the central mystery, I bring a theory for your eyes:

Roxana's our mirror, her sin is subordination - to have no will of her own.


She has red hair, red like Koshkin.

Oh hey Koshkin is a Crimson King, a Red King.



I don't know the true nature of the relationship between Roxana, Epshestion, and Iskandra but these quotes are rather interesting. Especially with what Karuna told us about her:

Considering that Pandora and Roxana are our mirrors and we were considering the possibility that Harmony'd end up killing Sympathy. What if Roxana does kill Iskandra? Gets a will of her own? We learned that the Emerald Fleece is not as terrible as we feared what if the Giant's Shadow is redefined as well? What if our mirror ends up with power as a Red Queen?
I would like to make an addendum to this theory. With all the egg and basement references I can't believe I missed this:

The Scyr-Republic will Fall.
Kora will Return.
And Koshkin will Transition.

I'm proud of our Red Queen 👑
 
That was a devastating update. Saw Sympathy's death coming, and yet... damn.

[X] Silence. Accept the psychic damage, and reserve your song for the final confrontation with the dreamshape.

I feel like I want to conserve Rhythms for the final confrontation, but I'm deeply unsure which of the Axioms I think is most wise and interesting to put at risk. Burn Away as a post-war direction and reaction for Harmony is deeply compelling, but I'm very hesitant about the corruption of Sunrise Parabellum because this axiom feels deeply important to the choice of thematic direction of "Tomorrow" for the quest's future, and the possibility of Harmony making something new and better on Illuminata once she has overcome the Dreamshape. On the other hand, it's also very easy to see how Wishing Machine Heart's corruption through Fossilize could turn against her in so many ways on an interpersonal level, and that is equally fitting for the point that Harmony has sunken to...

There is Blackstar, which is also important and in some ways even more idiosyncratic. The odds of Lose Control make me very nervous but logically speaking, it might be worthwhile, and salient. Maybe talking myself around to it...
 
The current vote count is Crash Out-8 votes, Fossilize-11 votes, Lose Control-19 votes, Burn Away-2 votes, Reprise-17 votes, Tonal Fusion-1 votes, Dissonance-12 votes, and Silence-14 votes.
I hope this helps since this is an important vote. I would say that lose control looks like what will end up winning, but silence is close behind Reprise by only 3 votes.

On the state of the votes, I still hold that it would be a better play to preserve Rhythms' strength for our final confrontation with the shape. It would make for a wonderful surprise, and is a guaranteed, if unknown, benefit for the future. I like murky unknowns. The actual "Reprise" option only gives us a percent chance of avoiding a bad outcome in the past.

However, I also think that disregarding the possibility of concrete future benefits and holding out hope for a percent chance of being able to avert the immediate crisis is super in character for Harm. So, really, while my vote is still for "Silence," I don't feel compelled to convince people to switch from "Reprise" to "Silence" if the former is what tickles their fancy.
 
Harmony losing control while in Cube Malachite - a city she hates and wished was destroyed - is one of those things where I presume the results to be horrific but it was always going to end horrifically. I mean she did kill herself eighteen years ago even if today she'll be reborn. Just need an iconic hard goodbye.
 
Harmony losing control while in Cube Malachite - a city she hates and wished was destroyed - is one of those things where I presume the results to be horrific but it was always going to end horrifically. I mean she did kill herself eighteen years ago even if today she'll be reborn. Just need an iconic hard goodbye.
I would love Harmony to go full brutal honestly on all the Koras and tell them every truth they try desperately to avoid to a degree they question what it means to be Kora for one of their own to be capable of thinking and expressing such strong feelings. Imagine Harmony saying that the Porgeny doesn't want you to know this, but you can just stop being Kora. Such drama potential.
 
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Harmony losing control while in Cube Malachite - a city she hates and wished was destroyed - is one of those things where I presume the results to be horrific but it was always going to end horrifically. I mean she did kill herself eighteen years ago even if today she'll be reborn. Just need an iconic hard goodbye.
If the final arc just before her reawakening doesn't end with the Immaculates taken down a peg, or forcibly reduced to the size of a peg, I'll be a little disappointed, not gonna lie.

Actually, I kinda wonder what Faith's whole deal was. The political angle of it kinda escapes me. She seems to be the most... compassionate of the ruling Immaculates? Amidst the Immaculates, she was able to think in ways most similar to Koinon, gathering political support and creating the material conditions necessary to actually defeat Koinon through a proper war. The Immaculates' rejection of her is probably also their own undoing because she served as the only hope the state had to retain any amount of genuine loyalty from its constituents.

At the same time, Mom obviously doesn't trust her in the slightest, despite her being the only one who seemed to have a cool head during the meeting. Is she dangerous because she is lying about her compassion, or is she dangerous because she is truthful---and that earnestness and ideological conviction makes, or made, her one of the most powerful forces in that room?

Either way, I don't see the Progeny, in its current form, surviving the conclusion of the war. Not with a big fucking army that just saw their leaders sacrifice their fellow selves out of spite in a series of tactics that did not even succeed in defeating the enemy. Their general, the first and the best Kora-self amongst them, has been martyred, and their Sister of Supreme Mercy, who's starting to be seen as a God in her own right, is being kept in unlawful detention by those same leaders. All of those Kora-selves will be going home angry, spiteful, and with a ton of weapons, experience in military tactics, and connections to other disaffected soldiers.

In short,

RHYTHMS:
"The Neva flows
A new wind blows
And soon it will be Spring.

The leaves unfold
The Tsar lies cold
A Revolution is a simple thing...
"

NOOSPHERE: This passage is taken from a song from the Anastasia Broadway musical (Flaherty et al., 2017), and a cursory analysis of sociological trends circa that time period indicates that anyone who references such material is a complete dork.
 
If the final arc just before her reawakening doesn't end with the Immaculates taken down a peg, or forcibly reduced to the size of a peg, I'll be a little disappointed, not gonna lie.
Oh yeah, writing seems on the wall for them. They're the last thing I could see Harmony focusing on and they have a lot of weak points to make their fall unsatisfyingly quick for her.
Actually, I kinda wonder what Faith's whole deal was. The political angle of it kinda escapes me. She seems to be the most... compassionate of the ruling Immaculates? Amidst the Immaculates, she was able to think in ways most similar to Koinon, gathering political support and creating the material conditions necessary to actually defeat Koinon through a proper war. The Immaculates' rejection of her is probably also their own undoing because she served as the only hope the state had to retain any amount of genuine loyalty from its constituents.

At the same time, Mom obviously doesn't trust her in the slightest, despite her being the only one who seemed to have a cool head during the meeting. Is she dangerous because she is lying about her compassion, or is she dangerous because she is truthful---and that earnestness and ideological conviction makes, or made, her one of the most powerful forces in that room?
Faith was definitely the Immaculate with the most reasonable chance of continuing to have power other than Penitence after the war but the hints of a potential relationship between them makes my skin crawl even if it's certainly not damning evidence and might only be felt by Penitence. The Conclave are a group that started out worshipping Kora after all so I don't think I'm in the wrong to side eye any connections one of them had to the two sisters patterned off Kora's soul.
I think the big problem that the Conclave have is that Plan Enslave Kora As A Goddess And Rule Her Empire Forever is the type of plan that doesn't have many retirement options. They both don't seem to consider the rest of the Progeny as real sisters of the sisterhood and shaped their entire society to worship Kora which means they can't promote anyone to Kora's Jailers even if they wanted to. So they just kinda check out when they don't want to rule and I can only imagine that this has gotten worse as they've gotten older and have lost the Immaculates most invested in being in charge. Such are the trials and tribulations of being an immortal psychic vampire witch.
Either way, I don't see the Progeny, in its current form, surviving the conclusion of the war. Not with a big fucking army that just saw their leaders sacrifice their fellow selves out of spite in a series of tactics that did not even succeed in defeating the enemy. Their general, the first and the best Kora-self amongst them, has been martyred, and their Sister of Supreme Mercy, who's starting to be seen as a God in her own right, is being kept in unlawful detention by those same leaders. All of those Kora-selves will be going home angry, spiteful, and with a ton of weapons, experience in military tactics, and connections to other disaffected soldiers.
If the Immaculates play this smart then Harmony should be coming to Malachite to be the guest of honor for Supreme Sympathy's massive state funeral with the sudden public reappearance of Immaculate Faith - Didn't you all love Immaculate Faith? She's in charge now! *puppeteering Faith's head to nod excitedly* isn't it so sad the New Remari died Koras? Let's put her in second only to Kora so supreme she was.
If they aren't then yeah you're right but don't forget Penitence is around to be Roman General'd into leadership! With a bunch of blank bodyguards to hide from the Conclave's witchcraft. Or she could do the most treasonous thing of all - have a public breakdown over her sister dying and emotionally destabilize the Progeny.
Considering what we know of the Conclave I think they're too vengeful to do the smart thing. Harmony defied them to their faces they need to see her humbled sinful hylic that she is.
 
I think it is relevant to remember what was most important to Penitence.

EVENT HORIZON: Her elder sister still loves her. Never stopped loving her. And everything she did, everything, she did for her.

The Immaculates can want a lot of things, but at the end of the day the one true leash they had on Penitence would only ever be Sympathy. Penitence ruined herself so Sympathy could make it past their conditioning with her humanity intact, destroyed herself and committed herself to the cause for Sympathy's sake. Well, she also somehow got into some fucked up relationship with Immaculate Faith. But that also really just adds more fuel to the fire in regard to what exactly Penitence may be willing to do.

When it comes down to it, all Penny ever had was her younger sister. The Immaculates' remaining superweapon no longer has no means left by which they can meaningfully compel her besides force, and the only unquestionably good thing she has left in the world is gone. It's going to be interesting to see how that ends up developing.
 
I think it is relevant to remember what was most important to Penitence.


The Immaculates can want a lot of things, but at the end of the day the one true leash they had on Penitence would only ever be Sympathy. Penitence ruined herself so Sympathy could make it past their conditioning with her humanity intact, destroyed herself and committed herself to the cause for Sympathy's sake. Well, she also somehow got into some fucked up relationship with Immaculate Faith. But that also really just adds more fuel to the fire in regard to what exactly Penitence may be willing to do.

When it comes down to it, all Penny ever had was her younger sister. The Immaculates' remaining superweapon no longer has no means left by which they can meaningfully compel her besides force, and the only unquestionably good thing she has left in the world is gone. It's going to be interesting to see how that ends up developing.
Nothing brings people together like a death in the family? Auntie may be evil but she's a lesser one.
 
Nothing brings people together like a death in the family? Auntie may be evil but she's a lesser one.
In a lot of ways, ever since the war turned sour and Fairh made her play even, the Immaculates have been in a nasty position. The fact that happened at all is indicative of the various nodes in their hold over the Progeny cracking. They reasserted control, yes, but Sympathy was straight up purging their people, asserting control over the deployment of Kora blood magic, and largely used her power to force the Immaculates to the table. Their position is a lot more fragile than Harmony will ever evaluate in the midst of her depressive spiral, and one of their superweapons is now without a leash. With the shift in printing as well, we could be looking at radical restructuring in the Progeny.
 
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In a lot of ways, ever since the war turned sour and Fairh made her play even, the Immaculates have been in a nasty position. The fact that happened at all is indicative of the various nodes in their hold over the Progeny cracking. They reasserted control, yes, but Sympathy was straight up purging their people, asserting control over the deployment of Kora blood magic, and largely used her power to force the Immaculates to the table. Their position is a lot more fragile than Harmony will ever evaluate in the midst of her depressive spiral, and one of their superweapons is now without a leash. With the shift in printing as well, we could be looking at radical restructuring in the Progeny.

One has to wonder when looking at how Sympathy's death parallels Remari's whether it's going to be a pivotal to the Progeny as Remari's was to Kora. If the only one above the Conclave in Progeny theology is Kora and all of Progeny tradition is based around trying to be Kora - well who says a copy has to be inferior to the original?

This is pretty farfetched though because Penitence could just purge the Conclave and replace them the regular way. It's not like they're immortal psychic vampire witches or anything you can just do the normal mental conditioning that just so happens to leave every composition of the Conclave with identical personalities except for the two Outsider Immaculates. Otherwise it would mean that there might quite literally be only one Immaculate at the end. Good thing there isn't any skeletons in the Conclave's closet like, say, as a pure hypothetical, a still alive and enslaved Kora. In a society where Minds aren't allowed to cry lest they destabilize the psyche of those selves connected to them any existential revelation on that level could threaten immediate civilizational collapse - and staring that down the barrel might cause someone who already lost their most important person in the world (who selflessly sacrificed herself to save the Progeny) to take drastic action.

Possibly the type of action that gets your face plastered onto the update with dramatic titles underneath it.
 
It's not like they're immortal psychic vampire witches or anything
Amusingly, I assume the Immaculate Discord is just composed primarily of seething over the war at this point. Oh, if only we were in our prime we would have had this solved before breakfast. If Kora hadn't betrayed us then Koinon would have been dust centuries ago. Now lesser selves threaten to set them on fire and a conceited, wizened infant juiced on souls hundreds of years their junior actually did it. Rough few years. The ingratitude is palpable, really! There would not be a Progeny if not for them!

Anyways uh, no bad blood, right Penitence? We've got the future of the Progeny to look out for! Sympathy would not want the sisterhood to tear itself apart in schism!
 
[X] Silence. Accept the psychic damage, and reserve your song for the final confrontation with the dreamshape.
 
Amusingly, I assume the Immaculate Discord is just composed primarily of seething over the war at this point. Oh, if only we were in our prime we would have had this solved before breakfast. If Kora hadn't betrayed us then Koinon would have been dust centuries ago. Now lesser selves threaten to set them on fire and a conceited, wizened infant juiced on souls hundreds of years their junior actually did it. Rough few years. The ingratitude is palpable, really! There would not be a Progeny if not for them!

Anyways uh, no bad blood, right Penitence? We've got the future of the Progeny to look out for! Sympathy would not want the sisterhood to tear itself apart in schism!
Kora was seen as a shirker and a traitor until she took Cube Malachite, when the sheer politics of the thing meant the wishes of Remari's pacifist followers was put aside for the new Cube-Empress's hegemony and her willingness to endorse gnosis in the bounds of her empire so long as they played ball.

False, because Kora is alive. Entombed, a living martyr. The strands of her ever-growing hair extending to the roots of the tree, psychically connected to the whole of the Progeny by the memory wafers you've been eating all your lives. Her contorted, immortal body entwined in golden thorns inscribed with Asoryani runes, and her soul sealed inside the very first and most exalted sarcophagus that the Immaculates ever built. Their gift, and their punishment, for Kora. For rejecting them.

Before the final battle, she had planned to replace them, to liquidate them - the Emerald Koras who had been her super-soldiers, sacking the temples of their cults of her as Goddess, rejecting their love of her, treating them as things.


More and more I am getting the sense that the Immaculates were around before Kora was, and they latched on to Kora/Remari's cause only because she some how actually managed to succeed in doing something they wanted, and by endorsing Gnosis the new Immaculates could have more leeway to do things they wanted to do anyway.

This raises a few questions, if already raised in update 12. Were they different colored Kora's, and if so, what happened to the colors other then Green and Purple? Did the other castes just get subsumed into Green and then the Immaculates created a new hierarchy? We know the Immaculates have a life transfer process, but was that going before the time of Kora? And what happened to all the people Remari freed/wanted to free? I am sure she would have disliked the facetax given it creates a technology enabled caste system.
 
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