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Knight of Wessex (A Written World Quest)

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TehChron said:
Well, hopefully we'll unlock Severance 3 before it becomes an issue and we can all have a good laugh about the silliness of this conversation later
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For clarity, higher levels of Severance do 100% include new understandings of how it works and what it can do. Whether that will make you want additional Finales in it I can't say, but it does expand in what kinds of effects it can do.

Nepcalibur said:
Okay question out of left field, but could one use there sin for a final, the main sin im talking about here being wrath?

like making our self really angry or something.
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No, all Rotes are Prayers, you cannot intentionally use sins in that context.
 
TehChron said:
That's not a competition. Surely I don't have to explain how one and one make two, right?
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Surely you have to understand order of priorities right? That learning a 3rd finale in a single style is harder than the first two, and that we're still at what's effectively the entry level of what Severance- WoG one of the scariest styles around, can do?

It is a competition, in what we grab first, and what we use our relatively limited Severance slots on- a competition where we have to hedge against the simple fact Severance is much cooler and stronger than we can see at our relatively low skill in it.
 
AeonIlluminate said:
We don't have a way of defining it, as its from the weird Style that spits out weird effects at each breakpoint. It's like me asking you what you're going to do with the thing inside this box i've given you, but you have to tell me before you look in the box, and im going to give you an extra box every now and then, and then getting annoyed when you can't tell me what you're gonna do.
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Ill ask you if you're fucking with me before dropping the box and walking off

Karugus said:
Surely you have to understand order of priorities right? That learning a 3rd finale in a single style is harder than the first two, and that we're still at what's effectively the entry level of what Severance- WoG one of the scariest styles around, can do?
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If you can't even define what your priority is then you don't really have a leg to stand on there. It's just a vague feeling, a preference.

I'll gladly recognize and accede to that when its confessed to, but trying to dress it up as something more coherent than it actually is is poor form on your end. No one's interested in snake oil peddling, just admit you're arguing based on vibes instead of pretending its something else.
 
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Nepcalibur said:
So what your saying is there's a chance one can trigger there sin/virtue accidently for something in combat.

Sorry if I'm not understanding.

Edit: Like could a rote trigger off of sin being triggered?
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It wouldn't be a good Prayer if you were asking God to help you Sin, would it?

That's something you'd ask the Devil, and that's, uh, not a good thing.
 
TehChron said:
If you can't even define what your priority is then you don't really have a leg to stand on there. It's just a vague feeling, a preference.

I'll gladly recognize and accede to that when its confessed to, but trying to dress it up as something more coherent than it actually is is poor form on your end. No one's interested in snake oil peddling, just admit you're arguing based on vibes instead of dressing it up as something else.
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Whether you actually think it's worth waiting for that information on Severance is a judgment call, but it's not snake oil to vibes-based to say 'We don't have all the information, we might want a different Finale for Severance. We do have all the information for Hordebreaker and know that we don't want or need more than a Lance-Charge. Therefore, we should get a Lance Charge as part of Hordebreaker since it doesn't use a slot we might want for something else later.'...that's a preference, but so's everything here, and that's a risk minimization strategy that is not really very vibes based.

Nepcalibur said:
So what your saying is there's a chance one can trigger there sin/virtue accidently for something for combat.

Sorry if I'm not understanding.
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You can certainly use a Finale in anger and that might have additional effects in theory.
 
DeadmanwalkingXI said:
Whether you actually think it's worth waiting for that information on Severance is a judgment call, but it's not snake oil to vibes-based to say 'We don't have all the information, we might want a different Finale for Severance. We do have all the information for Hordebreaker and know that we don't want or need more than a Lance-Charge. Therefore, we should get a Lance Charge as part of Hordebreaker since it doesn't use a slot we might want for something else later.'...that's a preference, but so's everything here, and that's a risk minimization strategy that is not really very vibes based.
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Okay, but what other players, collectively, are saying is that "it IS okay to eat the penalties for training it up as a Finale for Hordebreaker" while also saying that "Its NOT okay to eat the penalties for training it up as a Finale for Severance". And that is internally consistent...How?

Do Severance Finales just cost more to train or something? Either way we're not getting practice in on it without having massed combat to use it on to get it up to Refined in the first place.

So where's the opportunity cost here? What's being saved, exactly?
 
TehChron said:
Okay, but what other players, collectively, are saying is that "it IS okay to eat the penalties for training it up as a Finale for Hordebreaker" while also saying that "Its NOT okay to eat the penalties for training it up as a Finale for Severance". And that is internally consistent...How?

Do Severance Finales just cost more to train or something? Either way we're not getting practice in on it without having massed combat to use it on to get it up to Refined in the first place.

So where's the opportunity cost here? What's being saved, exactly?
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Alectai said:
There are no rules penalties for learning a second Finale in a single Style, but the third and subsequent ones will become more mechanically difficult.
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There are absolutely opportunity costs because the more Finales we have in a style the harder it is to learn more in it.

I think it's fair to say Severance is really damn awesome. And we'd like to learn quite a few Finales for it- especially as we learn more and it's capable of more. For instance, a finale designed to eat away at Hama or other magic might be viable later on. For all we know high-end Severance can be made much more capable of truly killing Norse. Unique capabilities that our Devil slaying magical kungfu can do as opposed to just our more mundane army slaying magical kungfu. Now I'll admit I initially thought Superlative Counter was taking up one of those and that Hard Fall finales weren't separate, but the basic premise still holds.

And yeah- I think we'll develop far fewer Hordebreaker finales than we will Severance finales in general.
 
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TehChron said:
Okay, but what other players, collectively, are saying is that "it IS okay to eat the penalties for training it up as a Finale for Hordebreaker" while also saying that "Its NOT okay to eat the penalties for training it up as a Finale for Severance". And that is internally consistent...How?

Do Severance Finales just cost more to train or something? Either way we're not getting practice in on it without having massed combat to use it on to get it up to Refined in the first place.

So where's the opportunity cost here? What's being saved, exactly?
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That after adding the Finale to Severance new tiers of Severance has us creating a Finale that we want more.
Each Martial Style has penalties to learn Finale's past the first 2. Would suck to have both Severance first 2 slots used up if the above happens.
 
TehChron said:
Okay, but what the other players, collectively, are saying is that "it IS okay to eat the penalties for training it up as a Finale for Hordebreaker" while also saying that "Its NOT okay to eat the penalties for training it up as a Finale for Severance". And that is internally consistent...How?

Do Severance Finales just cost more to train or something? Either way we're not getting practice in on it without having massed combat to use it on to get it up to Refined in the first place.

So where's the opportunity cost here? What's being saved, exactly?
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As I understand it, the logic is that you already know how broad Hordebreaker is and want about equivalent numbers of Finales for it and Severance. Or maybe even fewer in Hordebreaker...I don't think everyone is sold on any Hordebreaker Finales at all except for the Lance Charge one if it's Hordebreaker.

Severance, meanwhile, is going to get broader, which they assume will also expand the number of Finales you might want from it, which is already as high or higher than the number they want from Hordbreaker.

That's a perfectly coherent chain of logic. It's making a bet that Severance getting broader will also make the number of Finales you want increase, and making the judgment call that you don't want very many from Hordebreaker in the first place, and you can disagree with both of those if you want, but it's not making any more assumptions than the counter-position of wanting more Hordebreaker Finales and thinking Severance getting broader will not make you want more Finales out of it.

Which is to say, I'm not saying the argument is right in some objective sense or in my position as QM, I'm saying it is a coherent logical argument with no more assumptions than any other position. It's a sensible argument that is not primarily vibes based beyond the degree that any argument about this sort of thing is based on personal preferences.
 
TehChron said:
Okay, but what other players, collectively, are saying is that "it IS okay to eat the penalties for training it up as a Finale for Hordebreaker" while also saying that "Its NOT okay to eat the penalties for training it up as a Finale for Severance". And that is internally consistent...How?
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Hordebreaker, between Charge, Sacred Circle, and Embrace the Void covers everything we want Finale-wise from Hordebreaker. Its a morale shatter, and a mass-attack + survive the counterfire on the mass attack. That finishes out at 3 Finales in Hordebreaker, so we only ever pay to train one Finale at increased prices, and Embrace the Void is only one we will need after we have Sacred Circle. We can probably afford the increased cost by then. However, with Severance, we have Severing Stroke. Then, if we put Charge there, we start paying increasing penalties for each Finale we want that takes advantage of anything weird Severance comes up with, and its probably gonna spit out a ton of weird stuff to use for Finale insparation. Stepping every single one of those down one on the Training penalties is massive.
TehChron said:
Do Severance Finales just cost more to train or something? Either way we're not getting practice in on it without having massed combat to use it on to get it up to Refined in the first place.
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Severance Finales don't cost anything more to train at base, we are probably gonna just want more of them. We should be able to get Charge to Refined by just smashing into a rock, like we can with Severing Stroke or Super GKB.
 
TehChron said:
Do Severance Finales just cost more to train or something? Either way we're not getting practice in on it without having massed combat to use it on to get it up to Refined in the first place.
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Oh right, as a QM I can confirm that barring another Counter-Finale you should be able to train additional Finales outside of combat by attacking a rock or something, and that would include this one. You probably do need people to help for this one specifically, but they'd be people targeted by the morale break rather than the people getting lanced. So that's much more doable during downtime...you don't need a real battle.

You need to spend the Zeal, but needing an actual person/fight was a specific thing regarding the Counter-Finale.
 
So the Void Counter-Counter Finale is definitely something we won't be touching for a while considering it involve countering multiple Finales at once. That actually does make Reaper's March a bit more attractive considering Sacred Circle without Void seems really risky.
 
I think I would prefer training Embracing The Void first if it comes to that tbh, don't want mechanical penalties on the "not dying from multiple Finales" Finale of all things that would occur if Sacred Circle goes well?
 
Ratato said:
I think I would prefer training Embracing The Void first if it comes to that tbh, don't want mechanical penalties on the "not dying from multiple Finales" Finale of all things that would occur if Sacred Circle goes well?
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Probably the main reason we can cram in the second Finale before the enemy finales hit us is because Embrace the Void as something like "Must be used straight after/at the same time as Sacred Circle, and therefore gets enough Priority to fire off first and win any contests of which finale has more Priority for whether the enemy finales get through. Meaning we'd have to do Sacred Circle first, as without it we couldn't get Embracing the Void
 
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The assumption is that you train both together...they're sort of a combo piece. They count as separate Finales in terms of learning them for Training, but they probably only count as one for purposes of increasing Hordebreaker Finale training costs...it's assumed you'll learn both so they don't stretch the definition of the Style the way multiple Finales usually do.
 
DeadmanwalkingXI said:
by attacking a rock or something,
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I'll note that you should be wary of how you go about training certain Finales. Training a big laser beam by firing it into the ocean is pretty nifty, until you piss Godzilla off in the process.

The Things That Dwell in the Deep are very real and very much should not be disturbed. The things that surface whenever it storms at sea are bad enough without their big brothers getting involved
 
Alectai said:
[ ] Put in an order for a shipment of Bornholm Shale–this is a Stone Foundation Material that will count as a Resilience material, raising your Damage Reduction by 10 for the cost of 2 Stone Slots. (2 Wealth now–2 more by the time you leave, for 4 total)
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Just to make sure I understand this, the Shale will still be available after the Tournament, right?

I can't imagine why it wouldn't be -it's locally sourced after all-, but unlike the other options it isn't stated. At the same time, I imagine it will cost at least 5 Wealth at that point. Otherwise what is the point of putting a down payment in now?
 
[X] Plan: Fully Furbished Temple
[X] Plan Hold my rock

Damn, I definitely want that rock. The Damage Reduction is so good for Audrey's "fuck your damage!" Gorilla Build, and the Decorations are great too, especially the Nail. Like. The guy selling it has no fucking clue how much of a killing he could make off it in Christian lands.
 
Omegahugger said:
I can't imagine why it wouldn't be -it's locally sourced after all-, but unlike the other options it isn't stated. At the same time, I imagine it will cost at least 5 Wealth at that point. Otherwise what is the point of putting a down payment in now?
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It explicitly was said to cost 4 total if we try and pick it up after the tournament. Since its still just a bunch of uncut locally sourced rock.
 
I do not understand the appeal of the proposed Finale & even if their was no restriction on Martial Style Finale slots I still would not think we should take the time to train it.

For one the restrictions seem to require a lot of set up; enemy must be ensnared, enemy must be in a state of fear, must not be seen; & all the other proposed restrictions for Heart Rending Charge. So very situational compared to Superlative Counter, Severing Stroke, or even Sacred Circle, which each have simple but strong restrictions that make them effective in short & long term usage. Sacred Circle also implies that mass combat Finales are weaker than single targets & suffer from being easily countered by mid-tier armies with large amounts of people who can use Finales, which is why you need Embracing the Void for it to be usable. The fear effect also relies on commanders not having anything to protect or restore morale among their troops. A fear inducing light prayer may be sensible.

[X] Plan Charge It!
 
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