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Last Light of a Dark Age (Warhammer 29K/Disco Elysium)

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Cetashwayo said:
Schisomachia is in fact a pun on schizomachia, I just didn't want to make it a direct pun since it'd feel a bit distasteful to make it so up-front.
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Yes, yes. Every sentence must contain several layers of deeper meanings to it so that the readers who obsess over each bit of the story can have fun peeling those layers back in preparation for a massive future reveal that shows there were even deeper meanings that were impossible to know without context. It would not be disco if this was not the case.
 
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IronKnightofSilv said:
Valid points one and all. I just think that Morpheos is a very slippery fish and that it is unlikely that a master illusionist would hide himself at the center of his army. Yes, attrition greatly lessens the element of surprise and is a slower approach but there is the possibility given the nature of the wire, his ego, or that his illusions have worked so far that he won't fully discover what it is capable of until it is too late. I will admit that a part of why I switched to this plan was because I like the image of turning a massive dark forest into a trap riddled with indestructible wires when the target has insufficient time to prepare defenses.
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Well it's not that he's hiding himself in the center. It's that ripping the phalanx in half forces Morpheos to decide whether he exposes his forces to getting hammered outside the safety of his nightmare world or directly confronts the witches. Ideally the latter, upon which we hammer him. I wouldn't expect Morpheos to be surprised under Attrition just because there are some legitimately useful strategic objectives you want to knock out under that strategy. No point in letting Koinon artillery hammer the Progeny when we can see where they're hiding them so close under an illusion and effectively retaliate. But doing that even a few times, much less over an extended campaign meant to minimize losses and bleed them out, is probably going to make sure he knows. I've said it before, but I think if we want to actually surprise him in a substantive enough way to get him we have to go faster.

Also yeah, vibes are a big part of this. Part of why I'm voting for this is actually for Sympathy. There's a Lot going on in her head right now I'm sure, and All or Nothing is maybe our best shot of her completely unloading on a Prime Soul without them being able to leverage their specialty to really put her through the worst of it. Give'em the good ol' mother daughter beatdown stress release treatment.
 
Given the revelation that Illusions still partially work on Hylics at this power scale, I am not certain if there isn't already a double layer trap put in what is currently visible, upon which we would have Problems due to difficulty repositioning after committing?
 
Oh, there almost definitely is. But that's the sort of gamble being taken, and it's part of my argument that all or nothing is basically saved by the thread. It's a fine but risky strategy that Morpheos can compensate for if it drives him into the open, except the thread throws an additional loop in. Either way, A Prime Soul is never going to be an easy target. In this case I'm arguing it to take him down as my top priority, mostly because it's cool and would have some interesting fallout for the entire war effort.
 
Ratato said:
If you fail the first time, I'm pretty sure between trees and mass formation you won't get a second time (the enemy gets a vote too)?
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Well, I don't mean so much as "we try again" but between the ability to immediately update the rest of the Progeny's forces we have some more wiggle room then if we were caught off guard in the offensive and no one could determine what was going on quickly or accurately.
 
UmbraofChaos said:
Well, I don't mean so much as "we try again" but between the ability to immediately update the rest of the Progeny's forces we have some more wiggle room then if we were caught off guard in the offensive and no one could determine what was going on quickly or accurately.
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But the rest of their forces cannot do anything against a Prime Soul?

We can do that through Attrition too, it's just that any picture incrementally collected will always be partially out of date, which can be compensated for with competent planners (assuming the Thread does what it is supposed to do).
 
Past Dreams said:
Because where is she getting this info about a void cocoon from? The voices in Elegy are from Illuminata's nanite filled sea, not the prescient infinity of Event Horizon.
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One can begin to imagine the kind of investigations Penitence might have performed on an entire disciplinary copse of hylics organized into a fanatic cultic group.

Typoes should be fixed, thanks.
 
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Ratato said:
But the rest of their forces cannot do anything against a Prime Soul?

We can do that through Attrition too, it's just that any picture incrementally collected will always be partially out of date, which can be compensated for with competent planners (assuming the Thread does what it is supposed to do).
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The Progeny's forces don't need to fight Morpheos. Pushing the phalanx out of his illusions is to open them up to the Progeny, and for all their might the Prime Souls are not doing their war efforts singlehandedly without extensive and comprehensive support.

And yeah, the thread has potential uses for all approaches. My argument for All or Nothing has consistently been a matter of using a shorter time frame to maximize the period in which Koinon will be least prepared and aware of the shift the wires provide to kill Morpheos. You absolutely still get information either way, but I highly doubt the guy is going to see the Progeny consistently start targeting down his forces and advances usually covered under illusions over a sustained, grueling setup and not put everything together.
 
UmbraofChaos said:
but I highly doubt the guy is going to see the Progeny consistently start targeting down his forces and advances usually covered under illusions over a sustained, grueling setup and not put everything together.
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Fair, but what can he do about that, beyond booking it, trying to out-attrition us, or committing for a decisive battle? (This is a genuine question btw)
 
[X] Our Sister of Supreme Candor. This is an idealization of your axiom Washing Machine Heart, reframed as a stance of extreme commitment to truth.
 
Had a big rant written up earlier after reading through the discussion, but after thinking on it more I'm just going to condense some of my thoughts before I sleep.

I don't think Attrition is necessarily the "safe" or easy plan. It reads to me as a methodical poke and bait comp meant to ambush him, to borrow gaming terms. We poke at Morphy until he is revealed or decides to engage to beat the poke, at either point we descend on or counter engage him with the Night Witches we have in store. I think it itself is also a risky plan that relies on high execution(and anyone who's played strategy/competitive games knows how hard it is to actually execute methodical plans in real time, though succeeding is rewarding), which can be helped by the thread.

There was some discussion on it, but I think Sympathy is a big part of the plans and needs to be considered. Either to attack in a blitz or to form her own plans with attrition.

I think we should be careful seeing the Thread as a silver bullet. It's a resource we can use, and while there would be less time to adapt in a frontal assault to it, it doesn't mean Morphy won't figure something out while everyone is in the danger zone. Alternatively, knowing your opponent has something and some counters doesn't mean it's nullified, it's another factor he has to consider and spend time countering. Mental stacking in fighting game terms.

I think in Attrition, we will have more Night Witches to fight him. For All-or-Nothing, we will likely have more support from other forces. Both plans I think are laser focused in locating and destroying him, and I think both can work despite me favoring Attrition. I don't think it was said only one plan could succeed too.

Guh, I feel there was one more thought I had but I forgor. Making game analogies when discussing how to kill god while lying down on my bed in the dark typing on my phone is a trip.
 
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Ratato said:
Fair, but what can he do about that, beyond booking it, trying to out-attrition us, or committing for a decisive battle? (This is a genuine question btw)
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Well, it's an open-ended question. I'm speculating, but I am also fairly sure that given time Morpheos can absolutely create countermeasures. It's definitely going to have an impact 100%, especially strategically as we get to nip away at a lot of the unsafe setups Koinon has courtesy of Morpheos' illusions as a safety blanket. But when we drop the whole pack on his head I'm certain he'll have had a good amount of time to consider what he wants to do regarding the thread. I don't necessarily think it'll cost us especially or lose us the battle, but I think if he knows the chance of actually killing him drops significantly.

Stilling said:
I don't think Attrition is necessarily the "safe" or easy plan. It reads to me as a methodical poke and bait comp meant to ambush him, to borrow gaming terms. We poke at Morphy until he is revealed or decides to engage to beat the poke, at either point we descend on or counter engage him with the Night Witches we have in store. I think it itself is also a risky plan that relies on high execution(and anyone who's played strategy/competitive games knows how hard it is to actually execute methodical plans in real time, though succeeding is rewarding), which can be helped by the thread.
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Oh yeah, none of these plans are easy for sure. But I think it isn't unfair to consider it safe in a sense, in that it explicitly conserves the most lives possible and maximizes relative impact. Strategically Attrition is probably the most effective choice. We can pick off the soft assets that Morpheos is protecting without the cover of his illusions, coordinate with other forces using the string on top of that for bigger targets too. But I am less interested in a strategic victory against Koinon that preserves the most we can, primarily because when it comes down to it I want to ensure Morpheos won't get away. That he will have the least warning, that when Sympathy swings the hammer down on his head it won't be expected, that he won't simply retreat knowing from the start he could seriously lose this fight.

Stilling said:
I think we should be careful seeing the Thread as a silver bullet. It's a resource we can use, and while there would be less time to adapt in a frontal assault to it, it doesn't mean Morphy won't figure something out while everyone is in the danger zone. Alternatively, knowing your opponent has something and some counters doesn't mean it's nullified, it's another factor he has to consider and spend time countering. Mental stacking in fighting game terms.
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He definitely can! But frankly I'd be more concerned giving him more time to think through counters and solutions than otherwise in terms of killing him. The thread isn't a flexible tool in terms of applicability. It does one thing, which is tied to the hylics which are already prime targets because of their null fields and capacity to see through most conventional illusions. Morpheos' goal when he realizes it doesn't actually change; if he snaps the tip of the spear then all approaches fail. I personally think all of them can work, just with different consequences. The question is how fast and effectively he can compensate for it. If he gets full on hammered by a first strike from Sympathy who can finally hit him accurately, how fast can he adjust? How quick can he change to meet the moment, as the witches descend on him with the utmost aggression? He'll pull something, but will it be enough? I think the fighting game comparison is more apt in All or Nothing, actually. If you have the full grace of time to consider these advantages, you can consider a game plan and approach even if you can't nullify it.

When it comes down to it, I think Attrition offers the highest chance for a strategic victory that will force Morpheos back. But it has little that will leave him unprepared for the advantages the thread gives us, as we will have leveraged those advantages to strike at Koinon's hidden targets and minimize our casualties. If it comes down to it, I think Morpheos will have the time to consider the options and seriously have taking the defeat on the table.

All or Nothing is a risk, and I am certain that it is gambling more with the lives of Koras both hylic and otherwise than Attrition, but I am willing to accept the blame and cost of those to try and seriously lock Morpheos down. I don't want him to have the time to consider all the advantages at our disposal and have the thought "I may need to retreat to protect myself" until he's in the thick of it and it very may well be too late.

I think all approaches can lead to victory, but I don't think victory and killing Morpheos are one and the same here.
 
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I think it should be considered that unlike witch-queens of old the Prime Souls have intentionally attached themselves to their armies as force multipliers, rather than independent forces in and of themselves. Wreck their armies and they are in a much worse position. Even Hyperion cannot sustain himself against fire forever - the sheer spectacle of the Red Sun and your personal horror let you forget that he had an entire phalanx behind him in support. They have different strategies - Theia tends to use her range and foresight to strike from range and manipulate the entire battlefield like a conductor. Morpheos requires his phalanx to exploit his illusions to work properly. And Hyperion leads from the vanguard, clearing space that his phalanx can exploit while drawing fire.

You getting so close to Theia was not because the Night Witches are so amazing or she's so weak, but more because the Root Command broke her phalanx and left her vulnerable to massed attack. You are exceedingly dangerous but it's also an object lesson that on Illuminata even Prime Souls are not invincible.
 
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Yeah, this mostly matches what I thought. Attrition feels very strategically effective. Whittling down his forces and out of position assets protected by his illusions, preserving our own, preparing for the vital push. The Prime Souls are not armies of one. But it's not like Morpheos will be unaware or suddenly surprised that he is taking casualties. He'll be able to consider and weigh the costs of continuing this push. That he retreat may be fully on the table at that point.

And I really, really want to maximize our shot of killing him more than anything else.
 
I have enjoyed the discourse of Attrition vs. All-Out-Assault but we are operating on very little information and are in the dark as much as if not more so than Morpheos. Regardless of the plan I expect a large number of witches to die, some of them due to Sympathy's attacks, and in part due to Morpheos pulling out all the stops. QM encouraged us to think tactfully about our options and about which plan would pair best with the threat and the wire augment, which was my focus. The hotwire enhances timing and reactions so I think that if/when Morpheos tries to flee, we have a more than decent shot of knowing when the jig is up, and then Harmony can dogpile him. It should be noted that Morpheos unlike Theia can't see the future, so if he can try and guess what the thread will do it does not mean he can do anything effective about it. Also, the all-out-assault plan seems to be built on more assumptions than the attrition plan. Just saying.
 
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UmbraofChaos said:
When it comes down to it, I think Attrition offers the highest chance for a strategic victory that will force Morpheos back. But it has little that will leave him unprepared for the advantages the thread gives us, as we will have leveraged those advantages to strike at Koinon's hidden targets and minimize our casualties. If it comes down to it, I think Morpheos will have the time to consider the options and seriously have taking the defeat on the table. I think all approaches can lead to victory, but I don't think victory and killing Morpheos are one and the same here.
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The all-out-assault plan seems like the kind of plan Koinon would expect given the progeny's track record in this war. Yes, Morpheos will not know about the thread, but he will have knowledge of the witches' capabilities from prior encounters, such as with Theia, and would be prepared for a desperate assault.
Edit: Would Morpheos expect a slower more attrition based plan from a group of hylic speed specialists given the information at his disposal? I think not. That too could be an element of surprise.
Edit: Anyways, I don't think QM would only put in a single plan combination option that would lead to Morpheos's death. Not much we can do now besides wait to see how the cards will fall. Harmony was capable of almost slaying a prime soul before the wire upgrade, so who knows how strong and her prime squad will be now.
 
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IronKnightofSilv said:
The all-out-assault plan seems like the kind of plan Koinon would expect given the progeny's track record in this war. Yes, Morpheos will not know about the thread, but he will have knowledge of the witches' capabilities from prior encounters, such as with Theia, and would be prepared for a desperate assault.
Edit: Would Morpheos expect a slower more attrition based plan from a group of hylic speed specialists given the information at his disposal? I think not. That too could be an element of surprise.
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Oh, the tactic itself is not in and of itself surprising. I mentioned that a post or three back. If we didn't have the thread and were trying to force Morpheos out, a total assault that either devastates his forces as they're pushed out his nightmare world or forces Morpheos to confront the witches openly is probably the most conventional setup. The thread is what I'm betting on here, an unexpected upset as even if directly confronting the witches the Progeny forces can engage with the phalanx and Sympathy with Morpheos without going in blind.

Attrition is potentially a surprising strategy but not fundamentally I think. The Progeny just showed they can blood magic up an entire horror landscape of their own out of fallen Koras. Leaning in to that makes sense. But it's going to take place over sufficient time that I doubt the hylics being able to paint targets for the Progeny is going to go unnoticed, which is the surprise I indicate. If we do Attrition I'd even say it'd be foolish if they didn't know, as Morpheos is absolutely covering his forces with them and it'd be a severe loss if we weren't ripping through illusion covered assets and supply lines with the support of the Progeny. Like before, I do thing Attrition is very strategically sound.
 
UmbraofChaos said:
Oh, the tactic itself is not in and of itself surprising. I mentioned that a post or three back. If we didn't have the thread and were trying to force Morpheos out, a total assault that either devastates his forces as they're pushed out his nightmare world or forces Morpheos to confront the witches openly is probably the most conventional setup. The thread is what I'm betting on here, an unexpected upset as even if directly confronting the witches the Progeny forces can engage with the phalanx and Sympathy with Morpheos without going in blind.

Attrition is potentially a surprising strategy but not fundamentally I think. The Progeny just showed they can blood magic up an entire horror landscape of their own out of fallen Koras. Leaning in to that makes sense. But it's going to take place over sufficient time that I doubt the hylics being able to paint targets for the Progeny is going to go unnoticed, which is the surprise I indicate. If we do Attrition I'd even say it'd be foolish if they didn't know, as Morpheos is absolutely covering his forces with them and it'd be a severe loss if we weren't ripping through illusion covered assets and supply lines with the support of the Progeny. Like before, I do thing Attrition is very strategically sound.
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Understood. Both plans are capable of slaying Morpheos, and I see your points about getting Sympathy the data she needs, but the plans diametrically oppose each other. One is slower, targets hard targets, is tactical, gives away more of the thread's capabilities, and takes longer to give Sypmathy a view of the actual battlefield. The other is faster, higher risk of failure, targets bodies and the enemy directly, and preserves the element of surprise via the thread and Sympathy's ability to get involved. However, I'm not banking on it as the "safer" option, there is no safe option, but how I think it is the option that pairs best with the thread. See The Illusions of Phalanx Hypnos allow it to hide dispositions, place artillery and logistics far closer to the front than would be safe without them - strip away the cloud of mirrors, and it could be devastating. If we could strip the phalanx of its anti-air ability that could mean Sympathy can get involved quicker as well. For all we know both plans could result in Morpheos's death.
 
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