Last Light of a Dark Age (Warhammer 29K/Disco Elysium)

That's loser talk. I know the Answer.

Unification of everyone under a single nation and ideology so that differences in laws, cultures and ideologies can all be subsumed under the new Founding Myth of a Naturally Unified Civilisation LETS GO.
 
That's loser talk. I know the Answer.

Unification of everyone under a single nation and ideology so that differences in laws, cultures and ideologies can all be subsumed under the new Founding Myth of a Naturally Unified Civilisation LETS GO.

Some kinda commonhost of man's progeny or somethin idk we'll figure it out when we get there
 
Yeah, Harmony like all hylics was dealt a very bad hand but has managed to make something incredible out of herself. She could have easily ended up way worse as evidenced by all the loser hylics out there, including Karuna who despite being badass has a loser's mindset. Harmony is a badass who does what she wants and does not let hylic bigotry stop her. She also has incredible people skills, pain tolerance, and lightning-fast reflexes. Harmony literally went from suicide is badass to I'm a badass terror weapon and I refuse to take anymore shit from those above me. And the best part is people don't even know how much of the hylic conditioning she has managed to undo. Conditioning that so so many Kora's don't even know is there. Her growth into becoming a full person has been a joy to watch. The downsides of course is that people suck because they are people with everything that entails. Kora was a person. Most of the progeny? Just sad children who never completed the milestones necessary to grow up.
 
That's loser talk. I know the Answer.

Unification of everyone under a single nation and ideology so that differences in laws, cultures and ideologies can all be subsumed under the new Founding Myth of a Naturally Unified Civilisation LETS GO.
Would some sort of confederation of nations under the light of one sun, a black sun, where all the cultures possessed their own founding myths and ideologies into various pantheons where disputes over laws could be played out in trials before judges who are properly elected from pools of scholars who have spent their entire lives in careful study and debate with genebread warriors acting as enforcers of said laws who keep religious and culture issues to a manageable level be a viable alternative?
 
Also I wouldn't rule out a better, or at least, a freer world just yet. There is something Morow introduced that states have unthinkingly and greedily bought up to help improve their manpower, which is about to shake the entire totalitarian technostate complex and its control over the means of reproduction to its foundations. Woops. Greed is good I guess, I am sure all that is solid won't melt into air this time!
 
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Also I wouldn't rule out a better, or at least, a freer world just yet. There is something Morow introduced that states have unthinkingly and greedily bought up to help improve their manpower, which is about to shake the entire totalitarian technostate complex and its control over the means of reproduction to its foundations. Woops. Greed is good I guess, I am sure all that is solid won't melt into air this time!
Is it the vita-wombs? Cloning vats? A new type of stapling that is cheaper and easier? Implantable cameras that provide positive stimuli for obedience and pain for disobedience? Or is it something like a softer version of the Butcher's Nails? I know I have brought them up in the past but they are one of the few pieces of DAOT that have yet to be revealed.
 
Would some sort of confederation of nations under the light of one sun, a black sun, where all the cultures possessed their own founding myths and ideologies into various pantheons where disputes over laws could be played out in trials before judges who are properly elected from pools of scholars who have spent their entire lives in careful study and debate with genebread warriors acting as enforcers of said laws who keep religious and culture issues to a manageable level be a viable alternative?
The words of a Coward. Half Measures will not save the world's soul.
 
I can smell the lavender Kora hair dye and the utterly atrocious food from here. Your belief that Koinon is the "hopeful," the "brightest light," that Koinon "might" be bad, and that Harmony's deeds are "wicked" is just one interpretation of what has been presented so far. Here's mine. Koinon is a country of cheaters who made pacts with the archenemy and who do not just get to be morally superior and happy after what they have done.
You need to get off the Face Realism boards lol.

I think people see the rhetoric of revolution and a just defensive war and project a lot onto a state that isn't there. You chose not to interact more with Pandora so it's obscured, but even aside from that, this is a country that has been using slaves in every section of its war-machine and has not stopped doing that as the Commonwealth.
I mean that's the problem isn't it, it is a just defensive war and a revolution now, rather than empty (or emptier) rhetoric. Moral ambiguity over who was in the wrong in this conflict died when we shot Hyperion in the face after he offered peace. While war might be hell, and it was a game of atrocity bingo on every side till that point, there was a very real inflection there. A point to step back from the edge and accept an offer made in good faith for peace which was denied and culpability which came with it.

Koinon entered this war to stop the Bronze King from crushing their allies in an unjustified war of aggression born from a diplomatic incident. After Cybaris got an effective out the Bronze King they whirled on Koinon and killed 20% of the population between the march of Titanic footsteps and the depredations of the Green Kora. They experienced basically moral chemotherapy as some of the worst parts of their society literally died and the elite made a genuinely admirable sacrifice for the sake of the nation.
And even putting that aside, I don't know how it can't be expected that the monster of national awakening is also going to birth the monster of national defining, which includes, yes, attempting to draw lines as to who is and who is not part of the nation. Neither should it be a surprise that a culture which buries Koras up to their scalps and farms their hair has not always had an uncomplicated, nuanced view on Koras. They are not an uncontroversial part of the national polity, I am afraid, and these calls are just that - calls. They are signs of how, under pressure, high-minded ideals can immediately come under attack in fear and panic and bubbling bigotries rooted in centuries of conflict.

Your own pessimistic viewpoint on where it leads is your projection as to the infallible power of the Immaculates to ruin everything. You are pessimistic about the ability of Koinon and Koras to co-exist, because they have been killing Koras, and burying them, and slaughtering them, and gassing them, and dropping petriform rockets on them that they promise wasn't their fault. And it is also underlined by the fact you are, in fact, a bigot who barely grasps that Strangers in the Progeny are people deserving of rights, even as you are entirely willing to extend that to foreigners.
While our internal pessimism and Koinon's flaws are be expected its also put in very awkwardly when you have things like "the Immaculates have won too - in breaking the chain between their national Koras and nation, and turning new suspicion, to the mimics who dared to dream they belonged to commonwealth." and we're looking back from the present it comes off less as pessimism and more a description of what has happened. Especially when its being edited in after the fact, drawing the attention to the addition and making it seem more like a correction rather than subjective opinion.

It just seems like an awkward addition, both due to context and history. The deaths of Gorgon and Eleusia are wounds which are months fresh and baked into the formation of the national mythos. Koinon got its shit beaten in so hard that the elite sacrificed themselves and the nation pledged itself to manmade gods in perpetuity along with the ideals that made them up. So its weird for this sudden panic (boiling over from older concerns or not) to develop in a people who have already been savaged so much, even if it reveals that the Prime Souls aren't a complete auto-win button. If it doesn't result in anything substantial then its a question of why it was edited into the original text, if it does then its pretty illogical given the recent history.

Koinon are a horrific slave state based upon centuries of imperialistic ambitions, assimilation and worse. They're doing the equivalent of the Red Army's mass slaughter, rape and theft of Germany and the Axis powers high off of revenge and feelings of righteousness even as they commit atrocities. But that doesn't mean that some evils make sense for them to commit in context.
In many ways, the story of the three warring states is the story of rise, apex, and fall. Koinon appears rising - and so its idealism is clearest, and its negative features can be obscured, written off as somehow unconnected, because its ideology seems so attractive and magnetic at the literal birth of a founding myth.
I'm not sure this tracks though? The idealism of Koinon shined brightest and clearest when they were at their worst and doom came for them and liberty was being offered to all as incentive as they died for the hope of it. We had several updates describing their societal reformation, the changes capped off with a literal historical rewriting and penning of a new social contract. More wounded than ever before even as through the Prime Souls they rose to a dominating strategic position, but still in that moment offered peace.

The national rebirth they have done was an acceptance of the sins of the past and an absolution willingly paid for in blood and breath. They didn't accept all their sins, but damn if it wasn't a change for the better.
But these narratives obscure the rot that is inherent in all Empires, that were there in the beginning and are there at the end. No state is your salvation, and no culture or people are beyond redemption.
I mean...Chaos. In 40k its entirely possible to damn a society such that daemons are going to be feasting on you forever, and even if you're a conscientious objector you might end up having to put your soul in a stone to avoid being eaten. Collective guilt is magic, sad to say, and for groups like the Eldar only the possibly doomed hope of Ynnead remains as a hope for peace in death. Even species that haven't accidentally birthed a Chaos God can find their societies so taken over by it and be damned irrevocably, as we so recently nearly were. The state can be salvation from corruption irreversible, even as its a self-destructive diseased leviathan of fascist intolerance and hate, so long as you abandon hope in an age which has abandoned it.

Thankfully we live in 30k on the Last Light instead of that awful place then. :V

Just as its possible for a state to be the damnation of those within its possible for it to be salvation, a project which holds against the Hydra and the innumerable threats of the world and seeks accord with others. That's not to say Koinon is there, it has a long long long way to go with all the flaws they have. But for the first time since the fall of Carnosa there's hope for a state that leads to the liberation of all rather than the chains of subservience.
 
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The words of a Coward. Half Measures will not save the world's soul.
Jokes on you. I literally just pulled from the Confederation of Light that went on to reform the Adeptus Ministorum with only minor changes to fit in with Illuminata. It's fine for different cultures to have different gods so long as that faith is not something abhorrent like chaos or against the faithful. Then the templars and the zealots get involved.
 
It just seems like an awkward addition, both due to context and history. The deaths of Gorgon and Eleusia are wounds which are months fresh and baked into the formation of the national mythos. Koinon got its shit beaten in so hard that the elite sacrificed themselves and the nation pledged itself to manmade gods in perpetuity along with the ideals that made them up. So its weird for this sudden panic (boiling over from older concenrs or not) to develop in a people who have already been savaged so much, even if it reveals that the Prime Souls aren't a complete auto-win button. If it doesn't result in anything substantial then its a question of why it was edited into the original text, if it does then its pretty illogical given the recent history.

Why is it weird? Being an idealistic revolution swollen with fresh power while still being stuck in a desperate war for national survival is something we have seen many times in history and it has rarely insulated minorities from panic and terror, much less hateful rhetoric. Battlefield difficulties tend to make that stuff worse, not better. I frankly think it's a bit fantastical that there weren't at least some riots and vigilantism about it! Though Koinon like most of Illuminata is insanely totalitarian in a way that complicates social action.

I don't see how the addition of mysterious blood-plant magic using the bodies of their incredibly visually distinct kin and tech is going to make anyone calmer about things. People are very illogical in wartime.
 
Why is it weird? Being an idealistic revolution swollen with fresh power while still being stuck in a desperate war for national survival is something we have seen many times in history and it has rarely insulated minorities from panic and terror, much less hateful rhetoric. Battlefield difficulties tend to make that stuff worse, not better. I frankly think it's a bit fantastical that there weren't at least some riots and vigilantism about it! Though Koinon like most of Illuminata is insanely totalitarian in a way that complicates social action.

I don't see how the addition of mysterious blood-plant magic using the bodies of their incredibly visually distinct kin and tech is going to make anyone calmer about things. People are very illogical in wartime.
Because Koinon is literally built off the blood of its martyrs and the reclamation of a common purpose, the Commonwealth moreso than the earlier Scry-Republic. You're completely right that looking for 5th columns is common after battlefield reversals, and looking for scapegoats is a practice as old as humanity itself. But the Lavendar Koras have been singled out for atrocities during this war, the army which was heavily comprised of them got wiped and the daughter of the nation was a Kora. It would make sense if the somewhat toxic nature of Elusia being held up as a model Kora who put her state first before her faith was strengthened, but the reaction that was edited in makes less sense.

That and like I said its a bit strange to have Koinon freak out after a battlefield loss, even if they might be drunk off the intoxication of their recent victories. Koinon got its shit kicked in massively to the extent that the massive scars are apparent on the maps, they drunk their fill of defeat and are currently in post-Stalingrad vengeance rampage. One defeat as a result of Koran witchcraft resulting in unrest and blaming the Lavendar Koras doesn't make that much sense when you're dealing with a state that has already gotten its teeth kicked in and is currently winning the war more broadly. Besides the fact that Koinon is psychic and mysterious blood-plant magic is like...Tuesday on this planet even if the Green Kora take it to whole new levels.
honestly pretty much all of the societies involved in the war seem pretty bad.
Yes. This is Warhammer.
 
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Because Koinon is literally built off the blood of its martyrs and the reclamation of a common purpose, the Commonwealth moreso than the earlier Scry-Republic. You're completely right that looking for 5th columns is common after battlefield reversals, and looking for scapegoats is a practice as old as humanity itself. But the Lavendar Koras have been singled out for atrocities during this war, the army which was heavily comprised of them got wiped and the daughter of the nation was a Kora. It would make sense if the somewhat toxic nature of Elusia being held up as a model Kora who put her state first before her faith was strengthened, but the reaction that was edited in makes less sense.

That and like I said its a bit strange to have Koinon freak out after a battlefield loss, even if they might be drunk off the intoxication of their recent victories. Koinon got its shit kicked in massively to the extent that the massive scars are apparent on the maps, they drunk their fill of defeat and are currently in post-Stalingrad vengeance rampage. One defeat as a result of Koran witchcraft resulting in unrest and blaming the Lavendar Koras doesn't make that much sense when you're dealing with a state that has already gotten its teeth kicked in and is currently winning the war more broadly. Besides the fact that Koinon is psychic and mysterious blood-plant magic is like...Tuesday on this planet even if the Green Kora take it to whole new levels.
Yeah so just want to mention that Koinon probably hates the Progeny more than pretty much any other faction given the amount of bad blood between them, combined with their belief that their victory was assured thanks to all their sacrifices and the birth of the prime souls, it's incredibly easy to turn against strangers, pun intended, who look like the people attacking you. After all, it does not take much to fall into old patterns of behavior even when trying to be a "better" type of nation and people. People don't make smart decisions when their beliefs in their own superiority are challenged and tend to lash out at easy targets.
 
[X] The Caprices. Gods, in a human shape. Ever-passionate, ever-spiteful monsters, too-caring, too-interested, their hands on the lathe of fate, their intentions malice, evil, cruelty. The Immaculates, the Prime Souls, the Titans.

[X] Our Sister of Supreme Mercy. This is an idealization of your axiom The Witch they Wanted, reframed as a protection of the weak against the strong.

[X] Attrition. Slow, measured. Inflict the greatest material damage for fewest lives lost. Use your Night Witches sparingly, leveraging your immunity to illusion, target ammunition dumps, ballista batteries - tighten a vice around Phalanx Hypnos that will expose him. Then your strong reserve of Night Witches will strike, and end him.

[X] Don't use the Auratic Thread.
 
Besides the fact that Koinon is psychic and mysterious blood-plant magic is like...Tuesday on this planet even if the Green Kora take it to whole new levels.

I think the use of a Power Word by the Progeny is probably in the top tier of shocking reversals in the war, slightly shy of the ascension/suns gambit pileup but ahead of almost everything else except maybe some of Morow's choices or the deployment of petriform. It's not a normal level of power with a little extra, it's extremely cursed.
 
Harmony was in full battle armor the while time so i think he couldn't see her eyebrows at all lol.

She wasn't wearing a helmet, that would be a bit too silly.

If it doesn't result in anything substantial then its a question of why it was edited into the original text, if it does then its pretty illogical given the recent history.

Okay, that I agree with and have edited it to make it clearer there was opposition and that it wasn't a foregone conclusion.

Red Army's mass slaughter, rape and theft of Germany and the Axis powers

They are a lot less admirable than the Red Army, to be quite honest. The Red Army were never slavers and did not use mass slavery to support their armies. I think people are a bit too attached to the Red Army analogy when we're talking much more about MegaAthens here.

an absolution willingly paid for in blood and breath.

This is not an uncomplicated idea which deserves to go without actual interrogation, though maybe not by a Cogitation 1 character.

A point to step back from the edge and accept an offer made in good faith for peace which was denied and culpability which came with it.

While the offer appears to have been genuine we should always consider whether a state drawing inspiration from the Roman Republic would not also use the tactic the Roman Republic did which is make a big moral song and dance about how it has never fought an offensive war by creating circumstances by which their enemies are always the aggressor. Even if Hyperion was genuine were Morpheos and Theia? What do you actually know about them? You are drawing a large number of conclusions on the marrow memory of someone who has never had a single conversation with a person from Koinon they weren't fighting, except a single Kora infantry soldier.


I know that Harmony herself is so exhausted and battle-damaged she has gotten used to it at this point, but deploying a hidden defense array which can rout an entire offensive army and spread targeted curses among the enemy using networked blood sacrifices is not Tuesday on Illuminata and I don't think it's an enormous surprise that it causes a mass panic. The revelation a country has a Prime Soul in their pocket they've been keeping for just such an occasion, when this was assumed to be the uncomplicated end of the war and triumph, is in fact going to cause panic.

Maybe I will add a small edit clarifying this, but I think Karuna's reaction speaks to the general reaction of non-Progeny civilians to what the Progeny just did.

The state can be salvation from corruption irreversible

Every single Hydra-possessed character in Red Sun was a major figure in their respective states, and used state power in order to get into the position they needed to be.
 
Pros: Harmony's dystopia will probably have a very righteous and moralistic state sec that will be capable of extreme violence in the name of "good" and "protection"

Cons: When they die their copses will make for delicious fillings in the state-sanctioned BORGR dole.

Edit: Now I really want a sandwich, dammit.
 
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This is not an uncomplicated idea which deserves to go without actual interrogation, though maybe not by a Cogitation 1 character.
Harmony is a woman of focus, commitment, and sheer fucking will. A blood-drenched super soldier capable of flaying any creature with nothing but her tongue and her sword. A master manipulator. A sun in waiting. A girl boss. A problem solver. A hot body. A drone and blade singer. An excellent dancer. A cunning linguist. A survivor who will do anything to stay alive bar betraying the one person who loves her. What she is not is a philosopher. She hates those.
 
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Yes. This is Warhammer.

Right, but they were also, IIRC, the first ones to start chucking chaos shit around, among other atrocities. I didn't really get the impression that they were much better than the progeny domestically either. The progeny is basically like, clone girl dark mirror IoM, but Kionon struck me as basically New Crobazon style liberals. They're doing liberalism but in the most evil way possible.

Edit: If this is one of the world wars, they seem more like Britain or France than they do the Soviets. Pressing people into service to fight, with the promise that maybe after the war they get rights.
 
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Right, but they were also, IIRC, the first ones to start chucking chaos shit around, among other atrocities. I didn't really get the impression that they were much better than the progeny domestically either. The progeny is basically like, clone girl dark mirror IoM, but Kionon struck me as basically New Crobazon style liberals. They're doing liberalism but in the most evil way possible.

Edit: If this is one of the world wars, they seem more like Britain or France than they do the Soviets. Pressing people into service to fight, with the promise that maybe after the war they get rights.
I mean, a closer analogy though still pretty far is to France circa 1792, complete with new cults, Haiti, and a Second Revolution-though no Terror yet.
 
Okay, that I agree with and have edited it to make it clearer there was opposition and that it wasn't a foregone conclusion.
I'm glad, it might just be my interpretation of the text but I feel like there's a particular style of horror and atrocity that Koinon should be going for atm in order to fit with their very real ideals and national rebirth. Their hypocrisies might still be many, but I didn't feel like the edit entirely fit.

They are a lot less admirable than the Red Army, to be quite honest. The Red Army were never slavers and did not use mass slavery to support their armies. I think people are a bit too attached to the Red Army analogy when we're talking much more about MegaAthens here.
I mean the Red Army literally had the gulags as forced labor camps where hundreds of thousands of prisoners (Polish, German ect.) were sent to die. But I wouldn't be surprised if they were worse/less admirable than the Red Army given their open acceptance of slavery.
While the offer appears to have been genuine we should always consider whether a state drawing inspiration from the Roman Republic would not also use the tactic the Roman Republic did which is make a big moral song and dance about how it has never fought an offensive war by creating circumstances by which their enemies are always the aggressor. Even if Hyperion was genuine were Morpheos and Theia? What do you actually know about them? You are drawing a large number of conclusions on the marrow memory of someone who has never had a single conversation with a person from Koinon they weren't fighting, except a single Kora infantry soldie
I'm personally just taking it at face value that after the near damnation of the world, and the show of faith that was their first plea to the gods, they were sincere tbh. There's a certain point where you take a look around and see how screwed things are and realize 'holy shit maybe we should stop' and it seemed like the three Prime Souls had hit that limit after months of war, almost being devoured by daemons and global damnation. Even the rank and file of the till then victorious Cordial seemed like they were ready to call it quits.

It's beyond obvious this wasn't the common attitude of Koinon though, the Prime Soul's offer was a rejection of the bloodthirst which had elevated them as I believe was spelled out in the text.
I think the use of a Power Word by the Progeny is probably in the top tier of shocking reversals in the war, slightly shy of the ascension/suns gambit pileup but ahead of almost everything else except maybe some of Morow's choices or the deployment of petriform. It's not a normal level of power with a little extra, it's extremely cursed.
I know that Harmony herself is so exhausted and battle-damaged she has gotten used to it at this point, but deploying a hidden defense array which can rout an entire offensive army and spread targeted curses among the enemy using networked blood sacrifices is not Tuesday on Illuminata and I don't think it's an enormous surprise that it causes a mass panic. The revelation a country has a Prime Soul in their pocket they've been keeping for just such an occasion, when this was assumed to be the uncomplicated end of the war and triumph, is in fact going to cause panic.

Maybe I will add a small edit clarifying this, but I think Karuna's reaction speaks to the general reaction of non-Progeny civilians to what the Progeny just did.
I was mostly being a bit flippant there given the state of antroculture and literally eating the dead about blood plant magic. This was obviously a pretty big moment, but the Green Kora being tree witches that enjoy using blood isn't particularly new. I think the international reaction was shown pretty well, apologies if that wasn't clear.
Every single Hydra-possessed character in Red Sun was a major figure in their respective states, and used state power in order to get into the position they needed to be.
Yes, but the Hydra uses everything as a corruption vector. Collective action can be suborned as sure as individuals might be, but individual action can't beat Chaos even if it can be incredibly important. Though on the flipside there is always the chance of individuals from Chaos infiltrated/subverted societies escaping.
Right, but they were also, IIRC, the first ones to start chucking chaos shit around, among other atrocities. I didn't really get the impression that they were much better than the progeny domestically either. The progeny is basically like, clone girl dark mirror IoM, but Kionon struck me as basically New Crobazon style liberals. They're doing liberalism but in the most evil way possible.

Edit: If this is one of the world wars, they seem more like Britain or France than they do the Soviets. Pressing people into service to fight, with the promise that maybe after the war they get rights.
...um, ok I think it might be a good time to step back from the historical comparisons since you've reached the point where you're trying to talk about the relative virtues of Stalinist Soviet Union. While its fine to try and debate the relative merits of fictional totalitarian governments I'm really not comfortable going there.

To desperately change the subject we don't know who was the very first one to start chucking Chaos shit around even if the Petriform gas was the first hint of its arrival, and until recently Koinon never had the chance to perform atrocities on civilian populations because we were too busy murdering 20% of them.

Again this is Warhammer, everyone is the bad guy. Which kinda undermines my argument earlier about states having the potential to bring salvation but we're in 30k on the last light, hope has yet to completely die.
 
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There is never just one analogy, and the danger with analogies is you get a bit more focused on what the analogy means to you than what the state actually is.

A paragraph edit on some of the state reactions (will not be doing many more except for correction).

Karuna's personal condemnation reflects that of Monad, and other states. Tetras is most critical, and the Connection cuts relations with the Progeny over the mass-death of strangers in some of the bramble-walls, villages simply buried alive under hedges. The Bronze King is silent, but his retainers criticize the 'wild abandon of all sense by the Self-State', and the 'deployment of a cosmic crime to battle another, a most unwise and unright practice'. Mister Morow is silent, save for a comment that 'techno-states so easily spend every last life that they can manage while never wondering if the survivors might not retain their vote of confidence'. Of all states, it is the neutral Skywatch that is most supportive, with Highfleet Verge stating that 'a country which has seen every loss of territory to the Scry-Republic end with the mass-burial of millions of selves in hair-harvest will fight to the death. End the harvest or reap what is sown.'
 
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