Tasha Kalina
Society for Active Misunderstanding
- Location
- NRW, Germany
- Pronouns
- She/Her
While I do not disagree with the substance of your post, this bit raises an important question: Where, precisely, are the windows of SV?
2025-AT-08: Staff and Aleksey A E
- Thread starter gman391
- Start date
hghwolf
Bird of contempt
They're in Prague, because SV is LIKE THAT.
Arthur Frayn
Fake God by Occupation, Magician by Inclination
- Location
- Land of Do As You Please
- Pronouns
- They/Him
If you have to ask, you're not ready to know.
- Location
- Europe
- Pronouns
- He/They
I mean, the underlined part is kind of an empty truth. Given that people clearly get banned from SV for doing that, there are necessarily no people doing that on SV anymore. So, of the set of people who have gone through that, only those that don't react that way can possibly still be on SV, because all the others have been banned. Making the entire thing circular reasoning.
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you are looking through one right now
poaw
The opposite of Doja Cat
He wasn't banned for the Nazi patch. He was banned for pretty much everything else. While others might benefit from more runway than he got for various reasons, it should be understood that it is extra.
If someone someone posts exclusively in the N&P forum then an N&P ban isn't meaningfully different from a sitewide ban in terms of their use. It only offers the small possibility of someone finding another interest area, showing themselves to be a good user there and possibly getting their N&P ban lifted down the line. The only problem in this case though is that some of the misconduct happened in other areas using basic site functionality (the PMs). So an N&P ban isn't going to work.
Tithed_Verse
Vainglorious
- Location
- Iowa
- Pronouns
- They/Them
Saying you're going to commit suicide and blaming it on someone specific through PM communication should be bannable.
If I did that I would expect to be banned. If someone else did it I would expect them to be banned. I would not expect someone to be permitted to continue to post on SV unless they had some sort of remarkable 'it will never happen again' defense.
Like, maybe, "I was fed powerful mood altering chemicals against my will, no really, here's the proof." levels of defense.
Everything else only mattered insomuch as it reduced the potential credibility of a 'this isn't my normal behavior pattern and I won't do it again' defense.
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Jemnite
CVN-69 Fella
- Location
- 清源书院
To be honest, with the caveat that I'm not Ukrainian, I don't really quite understand how islamophobia, anti-romani sentiment, or transphobia factor are linked to criticism of Ukraine. Maybe a Ukrainian would be able to shed light on this, but to me these seem like unrelated issues. Maybe they are linked somehow???? But personally I don't see it.
The wishing for the death of another poster and using the threat of suicide to blackmail someone else I can see being exacerbated by the situation but the things is these are not exactly like... victimless? Like if someone told me they wished for me to rot alive and burn from the inside out I... Wouldn't actually care all that much because I'm inured to it already, but for some people these are seriously hurtful and directly targeted words. Even if they have circumstances that lead them to lash out, you can't just let people just do that.
Again, I think people are focusing too much on the bandera thing which moderation staff decided was ultimately only a minor issue. The primary root cause for the ban was use of suicide as emotional blackmail, or in other words, behavior towards other users. The bandera stuff was honestly just tertiary; the points from that had already disappeared by the start of the tribunal.
- Location
- Europe
- Pronouns
- He/They
... sure, but how is that related to what I said? Did you mean to reply to somebody else?
Nervos Belli
Don't think this means you've won!
- Location
- Murica
I was thinking more about the deleted death threat, which was directed at a user who was spouting the Putin line that the war in Ukraine was caused by Ukrainian aggression and Russia trying to protect endangered minorities in Crimea and Donetsk.
It's not that I think Alexey's behavior was acceptable or even that the staff and council made the wrong decision. It's just that normally my reaction to a permaban is either "who?" or "good riddance" and here I find myself disappointed things came to this. That's all my comment was really meant to convey.
Jemnite
CVN-69 Fella
- Location
- 清源书院
That's fair, I just disagree that there are any mitigating circumstances for wishing for the virulent and painful death of any user on the forum to their faces.
Tithed_Verse
Vainglorious
- Location
- Iowa
- Pronouns
- They/Them
More of I think I misunderstood your meaning. My apologies.
- Location
- Bay Area, California
That is,.in fact, why people are focusing on it, because they strongly disagree with moderation staff about that being a minor issue.
Several of his hateful posts were hateful but not, I think, quite auto-ban by themselves (though the pattern maybe shoulda gotten him got earlier) but the straight-up "you were so mean you forced me to proclaim my allegiance to Nazis" thing seems actually pretty severe! Like it should have been worth enough points to impede posting, at least! It is kind of worrying that staff disagreed!
And that, to me, is a key part of tribunal commentary; the community weighing in with our thoughts about the severity of actions so that staff can potentially take that feedback.
Like, the anti-Roma racism post was bad, but if it got 50 or 100 points, which is what it seems to have gotten, that seems right? There's less to say about it, so people are talking about it less.
Disclaimer: For the record, I don't actually agree with his action of buying the patch knowing that it's an Nazi symbol
The problem though ... is that's not what he actually said. Replicating the text of exactly what was said - spoiler boxed:
There's absolutely zero in there about him saying that he actually believes in the Nazi ideology - rather he bought it because he wanted to piss off people - and that was the basis for the points he ate.
The "bought Nazi merch means he must be a Nazi" is a conclusion that people jumped to. Which, to be fair, I can see why they would jump to that conclusion - I disagree with them, but still can see why they make the leap.
What I worry about - hence why I posting this knowing that I will take some flak - is that I don't want the standard for a auto-ban lowered to the level that various posters appear to be demanding it to be. Sure, give them points for their actions, and if that takes them over the threshold, let them go to tribunal and defend themselves. If they have an egregious history of this stuff, it will all come out and the right outcome will happen.
The problem though ... is that's not what he actually said. Replicating the text of exactly what was said - spoiler boxed:
P.S. By the way, I personally bought a patch with a black sun after a discussion in this thread. And I'm proud that this information will piss off many assholes who think that people should be disposed of in frontal attacks for wearing symbols. Fuck anyone who says that the defining factor of nahuism is symbols and not actions. Consider this my protest, assholes (I know that I will be banned, but I don't care now).
There's absolutely zero in there about him saying that he actually believes in the Nazi ideology - rather he bought it because he wanted to piss off people - and that was the basis for the points he ate.
The "bought Nazi merch means he must be a Nazi" is a conclusion that people jumped to. Which, to be fair, I can see why they would jump to that conclusion - I disagree with them, but still can see why they make the leap.
What I worry about - hence why I posting this knowing that I will take some flak - is that I don't want the standard for a auto-ban lowered to the level that various posters appear to be demanding it to be. Sure, give them points for their actions, and if that takes them over the threshold, let them go to tribunal and defend themselves. If they have an egregious history of this stuff, it will all come out and the right outcome will happen.
- Location
- Bay Area, California
I mean, strictly speaking he said he bought it, and also is proud that buying it will piss people off, he didn't actually say that he bought it to piss people off.
And I'm not even saying that's necessarily an instant-ban level of offense, but like... more than 25 points, please? Openly admitting to buying and wearing Nazi paraphernalia should be an action that impedes your posting on SV.
And I'm not even saying that's necessarily an instant-ban level of offense, but like... more than 25 points, please? Openly admitting to buying and wearing Nazi paraphernalia should be an action that impedes your posting on SV.
Morganite
Happiness is a large book.
- Location
- Dynamis - Firefly Alley
Would it have made much of a difference if it had been more? I'm looking at the timeline @imya t'loak posted, and it seems like he just didn't do much of anything for nearly two years after that. He clearly still doesn't think he did anything wrong, but I don't think increasing the points then would have changed things much now, and as for other people doing the same thing... have there even been any? It just doesn't seem like this is an ongoing problem that needs some sort of specific patch.
-Morgan.
- Location
- Bay Area, California
In the grand scheme of things, probably not. But on the other hand, pushback early might have stopped him in a way that late pushback after the pattern of behavior set in was unable to, and it helped contribute to a vibe of distrust of staff among people who felt that they were engaging in a certain amount of Nazi apologetics to avoid infracting him. 🤷♂️
Meanwhile, again, most of his other actions are just ... they're bad, they were deemed bad, he got hit about the right amount and the mob saw enough blood to be sated and then he got banned and the mob is sated once again. There's less to say about them, it's not like anyone is going to defend them, and they're by and large (except the suicide-threat PM) are not quite sole-instant-ban material.
Kingcrusader
The King of the Crusades
- Location
- Tennessee
There is actually a name for that type of reason (well, more of argument than reason anyway). It's called the Argumentum ad populum, or appealing to the people. It basically means that a thing is true or correct if the majority of people believe it to be true, or agree with it. It's a fallacy, basically.
Edit: also, yeah, late response, sorry.
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I definitely concede that he didn't explicitly state that he bought it specifically to anger people - it's only rather heavily implied.
I'm not sure where idea that he only ate 25 points comes from? The mod box indicates that he got hit for Rule 2 *and* 3, so I would guess that would be 50 points min. I don't think that anyone from Staff has commented exactly how many points that the infraction received - although, tbh, I could have missed that.
Looking at their post history:
* Dec 30, 2022 - Previous Post
* Jan 31, 2023 - Nazi Patch Post
* May 4th, 2023 - Next Post
Was he suspended during that entire time? No idea, but there is no evidence that he did post so he might have been been suspended for a while. Looking up the rules and guessing that the points from the previous incident were still on his record, that would put him at either 75 points (3 day ban) or 100 points (7 day ban).
Arthur Frayn
Fake God by Occupation, Magician by Inclination
- Location
- Land of Do As You Please
- Pronouns
- They/Him
"Yes he proudly bought a Nazi patch because it was a Nazi patch and yes he spouted right-wing rhetoric and yes he was an assclown all around, but I don't think it's fair to say he supported the Nazis."
Seriously? Do users need to start a thread called "Let's Read: the Protocols of the Elders of Zion" or something? Why are you going to the mat nitpicking whether or not a guy who did Nazi shit is technically a Nazi or not? I mean, holy shit, "Now, now, let's not jump to conclusions" is a hell of a take when the user in question literally bought Nazi paraphernalia.
Seriously? Do users need to start a thread called "Let's Read: the Protocols of the Elders of Zion" or something? Why are you going to the mat nitpicking whether or not a guy who did Nazi shit is technically a Nazi or not? I mean, holy shit, "Now, now, let's not jump to conclusions" is a hell of a take when the user in question literally bought Nazi paraphernalia.
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- Location
- Bay Area, California
Because people were pissed at the time and looked at his account and did not see it being suspended at the time, that's where the idea came from.
People can be really dumb, and as the saying goes "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." Do I think he is a Nazi? I don't know, because I didn't go through his posting history. Was he a Nazi? From what I read, probably. Is there a chance that his isn't? Yeah, he might just be really very dumb.
Does any of this questions matter? No, at a point stupidity becomes malice. I do hope he was just dumb and stressed, and he will get the help he needs. Which isn't SV.
- Location
- Europe
- Pronouns
- He/They
I'm with you on all of that, except the underlined part. That has all sorts of problematic implications, not the least of which is that people below a certain level of intelligence are inherently malicious. There is a reason that even a system as simple as D&D alignment put everybody below intelligence 3 at Neutral, rather than Chaotic Evil. Otherwise, you'd assert that effectively all animals are evil/malicious, the severely mentally handicapped are, and so on, when they are clearly not.
Tithed_Verse
Vainglorious
- Location
- Iowa
- Pronouns
- They/Them
Eh. There's stupidity and there's <i>stupidity</i>.
Most 'stupids' don't attempt to engage in smart things and don't cause smart types of harm. You would not expect a bear to start reciting nazi apologia at you, you'd expect it to maul you.
Likewise, if a parrot starts reciting nazi apologia you'd blame it's owner.
The problem is we use the word 'stupidity' to mean so very many things, and not all of them are even slightly related to one another.
It means people who are unworthy of respect. It means creatures that are incapable of fooling a human into thinking they're human for whatever reason. It means people with mental challanges and illnesses. It means people with no challenges nor illnesses who make poor choices. It can mean people who are incapable of living on their own and caring for themselves.
Stupidity is simply too broad of a term.
Kingcrusader
The King of the Crusades
- Location
- Tennessee
This only works if you just personally believe that is what liamliam meant. You cant assume every statement made by a person to mean what you think they mean, because you will then be accusing someone of something.