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Nobility on the Golden Plains [A Clan Builder / Cultivation Quest]

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[X] Flowing Ivy Elixir (Gold)
[X] Heal a beggar
[X] Suffer from Melancholy
[X] The Poison Phoenix, Zhuge Xin
 
[X] Flowing Ivy Elixir (Gold)
[X] Heal a beggar
[X] Suffer from Melancholy
[X] The Mischievous Twins, Zhuge Huang and Zhuge Zhen

Flowing Ivy Elixir is a good baseline to judge ourselves with, I honestly prefer being sad over being an asshole cultivator type, I'm torn between healing the infirm and paying a debt, and I like the idea of having a pair of little assholes we can try and whip into respectable-ish members of the clan.
 
Sirrocco said:
As far as flaws... personally I went with The Sads because it looked like pretty much every other option made us an asshole, and I didn't want to be an asshole
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Not necessarily? We get to pick a positive so most of them can be tempered.

Grudging can be honorable, Anger with kindness, Deceitful with calmness. To right wrongs with honor is justice, to use anger to pursue kindness is good, to combine deceit with clearness of mind is Machiavellian:V

But melancholy is numbing, it kills motivation and makes us passive. It is cutting our nose to spite our face.
 
Sivantic said:
Not necessarily? We get to pick a positive so most of them can be tempered.

Grudging can be honorable, Anger with kindness, Deceitful with calmness. To right wrongs with honor is justice, to use anger to pursue kindness is good, to combine deceit with clearness of mind is Machiavellian:V

But melancholy is numbing, it kills motivation and makes us passive. It is cutting our nose to spite our face.
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If you seize someone's inn and evict them and their family to the lower city because of a bad batch of wine, then that makes you an asshole, regardless of your other virtues, unless it's clear that this was part of a pattern of malfeasance. There's no real implication that it was part of such a pattern.

If someone bumps into on the street and you respond by crippling them, that makes you an asshole, regardless of your other virtues, unless it's clear that it was deliberately intended as a major provocation. In this case, it seems pretty clear that the provocation was not intended.

If you make a deal with someone with no intention of following through because they don't have the power to make you care so you don't, that makes you an asshole, regardless of your other virtues, especially if they'd done nothing to offend you previously. This guy had pretty clearly not done anything to offend us.

Jumping in front of a fellow cultivator who's trying to make a sale and forcing the merchant to sell it to you instead is, admittedly, only mildly obnoxious. It isn't true asshole behavior. Unfortunately, Selfish conflicts pretty directly with Kind. I wouldn't mind something like Honorable/Selfish. That would be okay. It's just not the one I picked.

The only one that's left is Sad. Now, Sad still leaves us as a little emo with entitlement issues. "Oh, look at how miserable my life is, here in the wealthiest and most powerful family in the fief, with servants at my beck and call. Woe is me!" It's not a good look. It's still way better than the 3 out of 5 that are actively and seriously screwing other people over Just Because.
 
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I just do not believe that someone would make a quest and immediately have in the character creation stage four "gotcha" options and one "good" option. They are all going to be self-destructive in some way. Melencholy is just choosing to be a matyr about it when we do not need to.

This is supposed to be a quest. We do not start with the perfect character, we start with a bad one and develop them into a good one.

Anyway. Vote is pretty much decided, so let us see how this combination colours the narrative.
 
Arcanestomper said:
The woman in silks bows, "Congratulations Master Liang, I knew you would have no trouble." Raising her head you see a rare smile on An Lia's face. Your right hand woman in the management of the medicine hall is normally very serious and calm. But it seems that your achievement of breaking into a new realm has broken through that.

As well it should. As a soldier your position in the medicine hall was always somewhat precarious. Neither your age nor your power was sufficient for such an important position, and the clan elders would float the idea of bringing in an alchemy master every so often. As you were still young and still progressing such suggestions never went anywhere. But it was still uncomfortable.

Now as a full fledged knight you have the power to back up your status. Which means the medicine hall as a whole is on much more solid footing. You can demand a larger budget, hire more alchemists, and provide input on the clan's plans as a respected head. Well to an extent. You are still very young after all.
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Basically Liang was the head due to his specialization but his political situation was precarious due to lacking personal power.

Arcanestomper said:
The journey is relatively uneventful. Your guards were able to repel most of the monster attacks themselves. You were only called upon once to fight off a grain horror. Avoiding its scything claws was a challenge, but a few poisoned strikes to its main body were enough to convince it you weren't worth fighting.

After that you moved into range of the patrols from Fragrant Lotus City. You see several of them riding beasts in your clan colors before you sight the towering walls of the city proper. Feeling the need for a bit of relaxation you decide to wander the city for a few hours before you return to your clan's complex.
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Cultivators have duties to deal with stuff like that.

Arcanestomper said:
The first person you go see is of course your mother. Your conversation is brief. Despite your achievement it seems that there is something bothering her. She doesn't discuss it, but you get the impression that there is something going on in the province that she needs to deal with. She dismisses you with the news that there will be a celebratory feast later.
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Wonder what's going on with her.

DiscordOxymoron said:
[X] Flowing Ivy Elixir (Gold)
[X] Heal a beggar
[X] Suffer from Melancholy

Karmic Combination! Of sorts. Kind but Sad, and common Wood Healing Pill since, well, it is Wood Qi.

[X] The Poison Phoenix, Zhuge Xin

It's... Rare to have a rival that is treated like a Phoenix, which in cultivator settings literally mean geniuses and the likes, so obviously picking this one. She poisons? We heal! Simplicity!

Thankfully we don't have to do Plan Votes for this one, though I am curious on what we will end up with...
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The healer clashing with the poisoner is fitting.

DiscordOxymoron said:
I mean, having the Flowing Ivy Pill means our Mortal Population wouldn't bite the dust. Same with going for Kindness. The reason for Sadness is because of Karmic balance of how fleeting life is despite cultivating to have better life? Aka a potential philosopher of sorts whilst also potentially being a painter? Not to mention it synergizes with our Wood Qi. @_@;
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Kindness and helping out people does work well narratively.

DeadmanwalkingXI said:
[X] Flowing Ivy Elixir (Gold)
[X] Heal a beggar
[X] Suffer from Melancholy
[X] The Poison Phoenix, Zhuge Xin

Yeah, this seems reasonable. I am also tempted by the White Blooded Qi Pill, for sale as well as our own use, but Flowing Ivy Elixir is a good choice as well.

For weaknesses, I actually really don't like this one but I hate all the others more because of how petty they are. I wouldn't mind a flaw like selfishness, anger, vindictiveness, or being deceitful if it was less extreme and petty. Like...even by xianxia standards the stuff on those flaws is some petty hateful bullshit. Deceitfulness is probably the least so, but even on that one actually following through on our promise costs us basically nothing so we're conning someone just to con them, not for any actual purpose. And all the rest are mostly much worse.

Like 'I once destroyed an entire family' level of vindictiveness would be fine if the family actually did something real to provoke it, but crippling people for bumping into you is some crazy shit. Or murdering someone in a fit of rage after an actual insult, sure, I could see that...making someone homeless for accidentally serving you a bad drink? That's legitimately insane even by most cultivation setting standards.

All of them feel like there is no lower bounds, like any tiny little thing will set our protagonist off. All of them will have our protagonist committing atrocities over a cookie. It's wild.
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Most cultivators are assholes not being like that is good.

DeadmanwalkingXI said:
They mostly make a kind of ridiculous number of enemies. That's a huge hindrance in practice. Many of them are likely to actively alienate even our closest allies in short order given how extreme they are.
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Sivantic said:
Enemies? Yes, but a ridiculous amount? Hardly. We are not at the capital and the town depends on our clan for survival. Being Deceitful hurts when you are bad at it.

Deceitful, the one that I am voting, especially can be a good one. This is Xianxia, everyone lies, everyone has schemes. Being good at social manipulation, is not a bad thing, particularly because we can temper it with good traits, like kind or calm.

Melancholy is lethargy, apathy, sadness. It is this constant battle to do something, killer to cultivation where you need to focus for long periods of time and need that self-motivation.
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Cultivators being assholes is expected.

Sirrocco said:
Ah! And here we have one of the benefits of the Barony pick shining through. Knight-tier is actually seen as an entirely reasonable level of cultivation to hold for someone running something like the Barony's Medicine Hall.

As for the vote?

[X] Bundle of Stinky Herbs (Gold)

...because I feel like we should lean into our family's Spirit Beast specialization at least some.

[x] Heal a beggar
[x] Suffer from Melancholy

"Kind but sad" does feel pretty healerish. Past that... well, sad is literally the only one of those personal flaws that isn't casually ruining things for others in an obnoxious Young Master sort of way. I don't want to be that kind of Young Master.

[X] The Poison Phoenix, Zhuge Xin

I like the idea that the core of our rivalry is that she's disappointed in us and feels like we should be working harder. It offers a nice little space for rapprochement later, if we can step up.
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Maybe if the MC becomes badass enough she'll stop being annoyed.

[X] Flowing Ivy Elixir (Gold)

Leaning into the healing specialty is good.

[X] Heal a beggar
[X] Suffer from Melancholy

Having a nice cultivator who isn't an asshole is interesting.

[X] The Poison Phoenix, Zhuge Xin

The idea of the person who full embraces cultivator lifestyle due to being a prodigy clashing with the kind healer who dislikes cultivator lifestyle/cruelty is very interesting.
 
Sivantic said:
I just do not believe that someone would make a quest and immediately have in the character creation stage four "gotcha" options and one "good" option. They are all going to be self-destructive in some way. Melencholy is just choosing to be a matyr about it when we do not need to.

This is supposed to be a quest. We do not start with the perfect character, we start with a bad one and develop them into a good one.

Anyway. Vote is pretty much decided, so let us see how this combination colours the narrative.
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I do not pretend that there is "gotcha" or "good", here. I believe that it would be entirely possible for us to play through as an asshole and do just fine for ourselves. I just don't want to be that guy.

Also, we have our older sister who wants to kick our ass until we stop being all pathetic and sorry and sadsack all the time and making her look bad by association. There are paths out of that pit, too.
 
DeadmanwalkingXI said:
[X] Flowing Ivy Elixir (Gold)
[X] Heal a beggar
[X] Suffer from Melancholy
[X] The Poison Phoenix, Zhuge Xin

Yeah, this seems reasonable. I am also tempted by the White Blooded Qi Pill, for sale as well as our own use, but Flowing Ivy Elixir is a good choice as well.

For weaknesses, I actually really don't like this one but I hate all the others more because of how petty they are. I wouldn't mind a flaw like selfishness, anger, vindictiveness, or being deceitful if it was less extreme and petty. Like...even by xianxia standards the stuff on those flaws is some petty hateful bullshit. Deceitfulness is probably the least so, but even on that one actually following through on our promise costs us basically nothing so we're conning someone just to con them, not for any actual purpose. And all the rest are mostly much worse.

Like 'I once destroyed an entire family' level of vindictiveness would be fine if the family actually did something real to provoke it, but crippling people for bumping into you is some crazy shit. Or murdering someone in a fit of rage after an actual insult, sure, I could see that...making someone homeless for accidentally serving you a bad drink? That's legitimately insane even by most cultivation setting standards.

All of them feel like there is no lower bounds, like any tiny little thing will set our protagonist off. All of them will have our protagonist committing atrocities over a cookie. It's wild.
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They wouldn't be that bad in play, but I did want to showcase that they are in fact serious flaws for the MC. And by extension sadness is just as bad as the others. It will leave the MC depressed and unable to take positive actions sometimes. Basically I am taking a page from CK3. You'll be able to do what you want most of the time, but you'll build up stress that will eventually require you to vent somehow. The choice of negative here directs how you'll be doing that venting. Either a little bit regularly or a lot all at once.

In these instances the MC was feeling very pressured up until their breakthrough, and is now taking the opportunity to release some stress when the environment is safe and their position is secure.

SeaTheTree said:
Will the other siblings other than the winner of the vote exist but not as rivals but as NPCs?
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Yes, all the siblings will exist regardless of the vote.
 
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Sirrocco said:
I do not pretend that there is "gotcha" or "good", here. I believe that it would be entirely possible for us to play through as an asshole and do just fine for ourselves. I just don't want to be that guy.

Also, we have our older sister who wants to kick our ass until we stop being all pathetic and sorry and sadsack all the time and making her look bad by association. There are paths out of that pit, too.
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Not wanting to be that guy is good, it is the whole point of a story. But starting out as an asshole makes for a better story than starting as someone boring. I do not think anyone plans on staying as a jerk.

As far as I can tell, she is disgusted with us, nothing that says she is invested in improving us. All it says is that she is our least favorite person.
 
[X] Bundle of Stinky Herbs (Gold)
[X] The Mischievous Twins, Zhuge Huang and Zhuge Zhen

I know that both of these options will lose but just had to anyways.
 
Sivantic said:
I just do not believe that someone would make a quest and immediately have in the character creation stage four "gotcha" options and one "good" option. They are all going to be self-destructive in some way. Melencholy is just choosing to be a matyr about it when we do not need to.
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I'm not saying melancholy is better from a mechanical perspective. I was saying it was less egregiously unpleasant and petty. I think all are equally bad in one way or another, but I'd rather be depressed than psychotic, even if both have equal mechanical penalties.

Sirrocco said:
I do not pretend that there is "gotcha" or "good", here. I believe that it would be entirely possible for us to play through as an asshole and do just fine for ourselves. I just don't want to be that guy.

Also, we have our older sister who wants to kick our ass until we stop being all pathetic and sorry and sadsack all the time and making her look bad by association. There are paths out of that pit, too.
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Yeah, this is a big part of it. Melancholy is bad, but it's not 'this is a shit person, I don't want to play as them'.

Arcanestomper said:
They wouldn't be that bad in play, but I did want to showcase that they are in fact serious flaws for the MC. And by extension sadness is just as bad as the others. It will leave the MC depressed and unable to take positive actions sometimes. Basically I am taking a page from CK3. You'll be able to do what you want most of the time, but you'll build up stress that will eventually require you to vent somehow. The choice of negative here directs how you'll be doing that venting. Either a little bit regularly or a lot all at once.

In these instances the MC was feeling very pressured up until their breakthrough, and is now taking the opportunity to release some stress when the environment is safe and their position is secure.
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Fair enough, I suppose, but I think you seriously overshot there. They come off as 'this is too extreme to function in society and makes the protagonist completely unsympathetic'. Which doesn't sound fun.

Like, I sincerely would have voted for anger problems or grudge-holding over depression in most circumstances if it was just the flaws themselves, but the examples were so extreme and petty that didn't seem viable in a way that didn't make me want to quit the quest due to the protagonist being even worse than the villains of a lot of xianxia. Someone can have a temper and be sympathetic, the example version of anger? Too petty and severe to be a sympathetic protagonist in any way. Ditto grudge-holding and deceitful.
 
DeadmanwalkingXI said:
Like, I sincerely would have voted for anger problems or grudge-holding over depression in most circumstances if it was just the flaws themselves, but the examples were so extreme and petty that didn't seem viable in a way that didn't make me want to quit the quest due to the protagonist being even worse than the villains of a lot of xianxia. Someone can have a temper and be sympathetic, the example version of anger? Too petty and severe to be a sympathetic protagonist in any way. Ditto grudge-holding and deceitful.
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Yeah, @Arcanestomper? Pretty much this. The fact that they were basically all punching down, and generally doing so in a way that did serious and lasting injury to those punched down upon... yeah. If you want there to be real choice between them, there needs to be at least *some* level of moral equivalence, rather than having a whole bunch of variations of "this is the stuff that Young Masters do so that you know that it is appropriate to hate them" plus one of being all emo and writing sad poetry about how hard it is to be an entitled rich boy.

Given the fact that you've basically said that it's not possible for us to escape our flaw - it's more like a WoD vice - that's especially the case.
 
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DeadmanwalkingXI said:
Fair enough, I suppose, but I think you seriously overshot there. They come off as 'this is too extreme to function in society and makes the protagonist completely unsympathetic'. Which doesn't sound fun.

Like, I sincerely would have voted for anger problems or grudge-holding over depression in most circumstances if it was just the flaws themselves, but the examples were so extreme and petty that didn't seem viable in a way that didn't make me want to quit the quest due to the protagonist being even worse than the villains of a lot of xianxia. Someone can have a temper and be sympathetic, the example version of anger? Too petty and severe to be a sympathetic protagonist in any way. Ditto grudge-holding and deceitful.
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Sirrocco said:
Yeah, @Arcanestomper? Pretty much this. The fact that they were basically all punching down, and generally doing so in a way that did serious and lasting injury to those punched down upon... yeah. If you want there to be real choice between them, there needs to be at least *some* level of moral equivalence, rather than having a whole bunch of variations of "this is the stuff that Young Masters do so that you know that it is appropriate to hate them" plus one of being all emo and writing sad poetry about how hard it is to be an entitled rich boy.

Given the fact that you've basically said that it's not possible for us to escape our flaw - it's more like a WoD vice - that's especially the case.
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That's fair. I was a bit groggy when I wrote them so I didn't put as much description into them as I could have. Too late now I suppose. The vote seems to be pretty well locked in. I'll leave the vote open for the rest of the day, but I'll start on the next update.

To be clear I am writing the quest from the perspective of a Xianxia Young Master. The MC is not a moral paragon.
 
[X] White Blooded Qi Pill (Gold)
[X] Heal a beggar
[X] Suffer from Melancholy
[X] The Mischievous Twins, Zhuge Huang and Zhuge Zhen
 
Arcanestomper said:
That's fair. I was a bit groggy when I wrote them so I didn't put as much description into them as I could have. Too late now I suppose. The vote seems to be pretty well locked in. I'll leave the vote open for the rest of the day, but I'll start on the next update.

To be clear I am writing the quest from the perspective of a Xianxia Young Master. The MC is not a moral paragon.
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Cultivators and Young Masters don't tend to be good people. Maybe it might be possible if they get sufficiently humbled but this is a young master who while not a prodigy is a talented hard worker who become the Head of a Medicine Hall through his abilities. He's prideful in his status and skills.
 
I don't think the deceitful and selfish options were that bad, but the grudgeful and angry options had him ruining someone's life over a minor annoyance. I'm fine with playing an arrogant noble type character, but I wouldn't want to play someone that callous.
 
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