In Victory's Shadow - A Barbarian Warlord Quest

In one of my favourite games Conquest of elysium 5. The barbarian faction speaks to their ancestors via rituals and rites and even summons them into the world via magic to aid in conquest.

So with our necromancer build we can still be a big fight war chief with the ability and skills perhaps to speak to our ancestor spirits and ask them for advice and help.

By *not* having necomancy as a focus we are still a powerful war chef with the bonus fun of minor to moderate necromancy

Ancestor worship is cool especially if you can speak to them! Gives me a dreamtime vibe which I love.
 
Adhoc vote count started by LucidProp on Sep 9, 2024 at 8:53 PM, finished with 77 posts and 33 votes.

  • [X] Plan: Chosen of Hora
    -[X] [Youth] ... taught to lead by your father.
    -[X] [Weakness] ... too blunt.
    -[X] [Achievement] ... slaying a Stallo.
    -[X] [Patron] ... Hora, the smith and warrior.
    -[X] [Action] ... to move south.
    [X] Plan: Paved with Bones
    -[X] [Youth] ... a shaman's apprentice.
    - [X] [Weakness] ... too trusting.
    -[X] [Achievement] ... slaying a Stallo.
    -[X] [Patron] ... Jabme Akka, the lady of the dead.
    -[X] [Action] ... to move south.
    [X] Plan: Action and Secrets
    -[X] [Youth] ... a shaman's apprentice.
    -[X] [Weakness] ... bad with money.
    -[X] [Achievement] ... the daring raid in the south.
    -[X] [Patron] ... Vuovdaisit, the master of the forest.
    -[X] [Action] ... to move south.
    [X] Plan: Favors the Bold
    -[X] [Youth] ... taught to lead by your father.
    - [X] [Weakness] ... too trusting.
    -[X] [Achievement] ... slaying a Stallo.
    - [X] [Patron] ... Lihkku Akka, the lady of luck and fate.
    -[X] [Action] ... to move south.
    [X] Plan: Warrior of Honor and Power
    -[X] [Youth] ... taught to lead by your father.
    - [X] [Weakness] ... too trusting.
    -[X] [Achievement] ... brokering peace with another tribe.
    -[X] [Patron] ... Beaivi, the goddess of the sun.
    -[X] [Action] ... to move south.
    [X] Plan Witch-Queen
    -[X] [Youth] ... a shaman's apprentice.
    -[X] [Weakness] ... too blunt.
    -[X] [Achievement] ... brokering peace with another tribe.
    -[X] [Patron] ... Jabme Akka, the lady of the dead.
    -[X] [Action] ... to move south.
    [X] Plan Cool Plan Name
    [X] [Youth] ... a shaman's apprentice.
    [X] [Weakness] ... too blunt.
    [X] [Achievement] ... slaying a Stallo.
    [X] [Patron] ... Beaivi, the goddess of the sun.
    [X] [Action] ... to move north.
    [x] Plan: Taught to Lead, not to Read
    -[X] [Youth] ... taught to lead by your father.
    - [X] [Weakness] ... too trusting.
    -[X] [Achievement] ... brokering peace with another tribe.
    -[X] [Patron] ... Beaivi, the goddess of the sun.
    -[x] [Action] ... to stay and gather strength.


Vote wise, we're at 16 for Chosen of Hora, 12 for Paved with Bones, and 7 for Action and Secrets.

I really do believe that Chosen of Hora offers a much less interesting playstyle, as it leans into the traditional tropes of a brave barbarian warrior who says things like it is instead of playing word games like the weak, civilized southerners. It's a classic trope for a reason, but I do think we can go with something much more flavorful with the world building details offered to us.

Paved with Bones upbringing has us interact with the spiritual side of our people by being a apprentice who's learned enough to be curious about the world around her, and since both plans are going South to continue the raid, that potentially also means interacting with the priests and spiritual beliefs of the Southerners. As pointed out by others, it would be very interesting to learn how ancestor worship and honoring the dead works when we have a goddess of necromancy as part of our people's pantheon.

Playstyle wise, Paved with Bones also offers a interesting twist to the brave barbarian warlord trope, as our ability to kill things real good serves another purpose beyond just defeating the enemy in front of us and proving we're the meanest warlord of them all. It synergizes with our apprenticeship to sorcery and our worship of the goddess of the dead who patronizes necromancy.

The more we kill in her name, the greater the potential to being rewarded for it until we come to a point where bringing the Khan and his lieutenants back becomes possible. It was noted that the heroes killed the big name necromancers to prevent this scenario, so I think this is a really interesting overarching goal for our character to take, more than just uniting the horde again through the traditional means of success in warfare at the very least.
 
I really do believe that Chosen of Hora offers a much less interesting playstyle, as it leans into the traditional tropes of a brave barbarian warrior who says things like it is instead of playing word games like the weak, civilized southerners. It's a classic trope for a reason, but I do think we can go with something much more flavorful with the world building details offered to us.
I think this is a rather deceptive/uncharitable read, grabbing onto a single point (blunt) to discredt a plan by just ignoring everything else.

The flavor is missing not because it's inheritly absent, but because you're not engaging to the same depth with a plan you don't like.
 
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I think this is a rather deceptive/uncharitable read, grabbing onto a single point (blunt) to discredt a plan by just ignoring everything else.
Not at all. Let's look at the choices made for Chosen of Hora.

You've already covered Blunt, so I won't speak on it much, so let's look at the other choices:

[] [Youth] ... taught to lead by your father.
Before your own ascension, your father had been chief and perhaps one of the best the Sakka Jostil had in living memory. It was unusual for the child of a previous chief to be picked by the tribe to lead them, as the people saw it as one family seizing power from the tribe at large, though his certainty that you would make a fine leader one day helped you greatly. You always tried to live up to his hopes, valuing his lessons on how to lead and argue instead of relying on the strength of your arm to force your will onto others.
Skills: Leadership+, Diplomacy+

[] [Achievement] ... slaying a Stallo.
After one of the harshest winters you had witnessed, a Stallo had been spotted near your tribe's grazing lands. The bloodthirsty giant gave no sign that he would return to the frozen mountains and its haggard appearance made it clear that it was maddened by hunger. While most wanted to simply leave the area for other pastures, you argued that slaying the beast was easier than finding new grounds for your herds. With a spear in hand and some bold archers to distract it, you faced the creature and returned with its skull in hand to your people.
Skills: Prowess+, Warcraft+

[] [Patron] ... Hora, the smith and warrior.
Maker of tools and slayer of monsters. Hora is rarely depicted without his two iron hammers, which summon lightning and thunder when struck together and which felled many fell creatures. After a Stallo tried to steal his hammers to weaken him, he slew the creature and made an unbreakable rope from his beard to tie his hammers to himself. You had always striven to become a great warrior like him and like many of his followers, you wear a necklace made of hair with two iron hammers woven to it.

[] [Action] ... to move south.
You needed provisions for the winter and preferably some coin to show for all the troubles that joining the Khan had brought you. Both were plenty in the south. You just had to be ready to fight for them.

Here we see a build that's focused on warfare and leadership. We move south, because war is what we're good at, our chosen patron god is the god of warriors and killing things real good, our achievement is also about killing things good and following the example of our chosen god, and our upbringing is about knowing how to take leadership.

That is in fact, the mix for the traditional barbarian warlord whose strengths rely mainly on how good they are at war and killing things. Note that diplomacy isn't actually a strength of ours here, since the chosen weakness nullifies the diplomacy bonus.

It's min-maxed to be all about taking leadership through warfare, and I find that to be rather boring as a character concept since it doesn't meaningfully engage with the world beyond the basics of being a steppe tribe. It would be one thing if we were an artisan or something to give some spice to the character. All in all, I don't believe my interpretation to be uncharitable. Chosen of Hora is all about being good at war and combat and that's the main means that will be used to achieve the goal of reunifying the horde since it's what she's good at.
 
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I don't think we need to devalue each other's plans in an attempt to win voters. I think both play styles will be fun even if I perfer the story implications of the ancestor speaking necromancer and we won't be locked into one play style forever.

Subcommands, advisors and allies will help shore up our weaknesses. Blessing and magic. I'm pretty sure we'll need to hire a spy for both plans anyway for example due to our horrible intrigue.

Let's be civil.
 
> The game is framed as playing a barbarian warlord

> Players take on all of the barbarian warlord skills and lean into being a barbarian warlord

…..yes.

I'm personally voting as I do because I dislike necromancy. Nothing very deep.

Nonetheless, it strikes me as very very imminently reasonable to desire a good Leadership and Warcrafts score.

Relying on lieutenants to supplement learning and sorcery checks strikes this one as far, far safer than relying on others for leadership.

Warlords who specialise in leading armies are surely quite common, and I would posit that's for excellent reason!
 
> The game is framed as playing a barbarian warlord

> Players take on all of the barbarian warlord skills and lean into being a barbarian warlord

…..yes.
Like I said before, it's a common trope for a reason. I just believe we can do better than just another barbarian warlord that's good at fighting. There are hundreds of those already, and while we can still be good at fighting and war (Paved with Bones still has Prowess+++ and Warcraft++), we can give it a little spice and be somewhat unique to distinguish ourselves from the hundred other necromancer lords and barbarian warchiefs out there.

Besides, necromancy does have some benefits to fighting and war. While we won't be raising regiments of skeletons immediately, just having some pack mules that don't tire, guards that don't need sleep and can't be bribed and will raise the alarm, and even scouts such as undead birds and such would be invaluable for being a warlord.
 
Like I said before, it's a common trope for a reason. I just believe we can do better than just another barbarian warlord that's good at fighting. There are hundreds of those already, and while we can still be good at fighting and war (Paved with Bones still has Prowess+++ and Warcraft++), we can give it a little spice and be somewhat unique to distinguish ourselves from the hundred other necromancer lords and barbarian warchiefs out there.

My greatest concern is the lack of Leadership

Sorcery, Learning, Diplomacy, Prowess, even Intrigue and Warcraft can be delegated to varying degrees

It seems dire indeed to do the same about the skill about being in charge!

It seems a Necromancers had far less incentive and means to contest us than a secondary chieftain…
 
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My greatest concern is the lack of Leadership

Sorcery, Learning, Diplomacy, Prowess, even Intrigue and Warcraft can be delegated to varying degrees

It seems dire indeed to do the same about the skill about being in charge!
Leadership is important, that's true, however, we aren't terrible at leadership with Paved with Bones. We're around average with it so it's not like we're rolling 3d2s with Leadership. You'd have a point if we had a Leadership malus, but that's not really the case. We don't exactly have a lack of leadership here.

The difference between Paved with Bones Leadership and Chosen of Hora is a 3d4 vs a 3d6. It's not an insurmountable gap, especially when our right to rule in both plans will mainly be because of our high Prowess and Warcraft which are our best stats and will be put to incredible use down South where we'll be fighting lots.
 
The same logic applies to Learning and Sorcery if reversed. I still value Leadership more.
I'm not disputing that leadership is important, just the fact that we aren't exactly lacking for it in Paved with Bones like your initial claim said.

According to the GM, our upbringing also plays a part into our character's personality. In the case of a Shaman's Apprentice, they'll be more spiritual and erudite than the protege background, which is important if we're going to be using necromancy as part of the build since those are two traits we want for improving our ability with the dead. It'll bring us closer to our chosen patron god too thanks to our prior education in religious matters.
 
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I'm personally voting as I do because I dislike necromancy. Nothing very deep.
In an argument focused on originality, it's kinda funny that the alternative is necromancy, the eternal default setting for evil magic.

Here we see a build that's focused on warfare and leadership. We move south, because war is what we're good at, our chosen patron god is the god of warriors and killing things real good, our achievement is also about killing things good and following the example of our chosen god, and our upbringing is about knowing how to take leadership.

That is in fact, the mix for the traditional barbarian warlord whose strengths rely mainly on how good they are at war and killing things. Note that diplomacy isn't actually a strength of ours here, since the chosen weakness nullifies the diplomacy bonus.

It's min-maxed to be all about taking leadership through warfare, and I find that to be rather boring as a character concept since it doesn't meaningfully engage with the world beyond the basics of being a steppe tribe. It would be one thing if we were an artisan or something to give some spice to the character. All in all, I don't believe my interpretation to be uncharitable. Chosen of Hora is all about being good at war and combat and that's the main means that will be used to achieve the goal of reunifying the horde since it's what she's good at.
Yeah, and I think that's uncharitable because you're aiming for the most generic interpretation possible.

We're are a presumptive heir in a system that doesn't do inheritance, groomed for leadership , yet not particularly good at it.
Our story mimics that of the Gods, so you could easily cast this a prophtt character, relying on faith to shore up powr, or someone seeeking o reform the khanate into a more traditional monarchy.

Plenty of options that aren't defalt barbarian.
 
In an argument focused on originality, it's kinda funny that the alternative is necromancy, the eternal default setting for evil magic.
You'd have a point if we were just a necromancer that necromances for the sake of it, but we aren't. Our desire to raise the dead has a purpose beyond just cackling evilly atop a throne of bones, and our path to getting good at it is also pretty unconventional since rather than just studying to spite the natural order like every other lich, it's a form of worship for a deity that's responsible for both funerary rites and necromancy and our main way to express that is by being good at killing things ourselves.

Considering the cultural context around Jabme Akka, as someone to be feared to be respected in equal measure, we clearly aren't defaulting to an evil necromancer with delusions of godhood.
Yeah, and I think that's uncharitable because you're aiming for the most generic interpretation possible.

We're are a presumptive heir in a system that doesn't do inheritance, groomed for leadership , yet not particularly good at it.
Our story mimics that of the Gods, so you could easily cast this a prophtt character, relying on faith to shore up powr, or someone seeeking o reform the khanate into a more traditional monarchy.

Plenty of options that aren't defalt barbarian.
Chosen of Hora is in fact, pretty good at leadership considering its Leadership is ranked at Skilled. In addition, mimicking the story of a warrior-god is part and parcel of the traditional barbarian warlord, since it's ultimately about proving how good you are at killing things to both the people and your god in a society that values exactly that.

I'd argue that the reliance on faith to shore up power and leadership is closer to what Paved with Bones is doing, since Shaman's Apprentice is explicitly the more spiritual option and is only average at leadership, while seeking to reform the Khanate into a more traditional monarchy is a long-term goal any build could have and isn't exclusive to Chosen of Hora.
 
I really do believe that Chosen of Hora offers a much less interesting playstyle, as it leans into the traditional tropes of a brave barbarian warrior who says things like it is instead of playing word games like the weak, civilized southerners. It's a classic trope for a reason, but I do think we can go with something much more flavorful with the world building details offered to us.
I think that's very unfair. There's plenty of warriors to play a warrior nomad beyond traditional barbarian stuff. Like I do believe it is very important to note that it is not min-maxed at all

Chosen of Hora
Prowess: Expert (3d10)
Warcraft: Proficient (3d8)
Trade: Novice (3d4)
Administration: Novice (3d4)
Leadership: Skilled (3d6)
Diplomacy: Novice (3d4)
Intrigue: Novice (3d4)
Learning: Novice (3d4)
Sorcery: Novice (3d4)
Their strength is warfare and leadership but there's nothing below novice, which gives us a good deal more flexiblity then other routes when it comes to adjusting and adapting. We are great at one thing, good at two, and not incompetent at everything else. I feel that offers a lot.
 
Their strength is warfare and leadership but there's nothing below novice, which gives us a good deal more flexiblity then other routes when it comes to adjusting and adapting. We are great at one thing, good at two, and not incompetent at everything else. I feel that offers a lot.
"Good at several things and bad at nothing" is a form of min-maxing. Weaknesses help inform character and personality, and Chosen of Hora has no weaknesses.

This gives us flexibility in where we can take the character, true, but our main asset will always be warfare for the sake of attaining rank, because that's what our character will be good at (Prowess, Warfare, Leadership) as reinforced by game mechanics. That's as traditonal as you can be for a warlord.
 
Having read a good portion of the preceding discussion, weighing the points for and against the two leading plans, I must thank LucidProp for helping me come to my decision on how to vote







[X] Plan: Chosen of Hora
 
Having read a good portion of the preceding discussion, weighing the points for and against the two leading plans, I must thank LucidProp for helping me come to my decision on how to vote
I must ask, have I done anything to merit being mentioned in this manner? I've done my best to be polite, and I've repeatedly stated that while the other plan isn't to my taste, I recognize it's a classic for a reason and wouldn't actually mind playing it.

Have I been particularly rude somewhere to merit a protest vote? I'm genuinely curious since I know it's hard to get meaning across text.
 
I must ask, have I done anything to merit being mentioned in this manner? I've done my best to be polite, and I've repeatedly stated that while the other plan isn't to my taste, I recognize it's a classic for a reason and wouldn't actually mind playing it.

Have I been particularly rude somewhere to merit a protest vote? I'm genuinely curious since I know it's hard to get meaning across text.
It comes across as a back handed compliment at best.
 
It comes across as a back handed compliment at best.
Never my intention, I'm just arguing in favor for my preferred option by drawing a contrast with the leading vote and pointing out where I find it deficient. It's just how it is in most quests.

Regardless, I hardly believe that warrants a post like the one I quoted, especially since I've argued in good faith and never actually went to insult or taunt anyone by name, so it's depressing to see that courtesy isn't returned by other voters. Every point I've made was backed by something in the text, so I'm not really sure where this is all coming from.
 
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