Army of Liberty: a Fantasy Revolutionary Warfare Quest

[X] Demand the guns are destroyed instead. A compromise solution may satisfy their notions of honor - they'll wreck the guns before they go, preventing either side from making use of them.

The guns would be nice to have, but fundamentally we don't actually need them, certainly not more than we need to not bleed troops and supplies sieging the city. And as folks have already noted, the wording the officer uses is "However, we cannot in good conscience allow the King's cannons or the city's defenses to be taken intact by the enemy."

WGDragoon said:

I think people are thinking too short term on this. Yeah, our army doesn't need the extra cannons, and we won't be able to form regiments for them in the next march turn, but I'd be shocked if 6th army was particularly flush with cannons.

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They're very unlikely to have the time and equipment to do more than spike the guns (and probably don't want to do more than spike the guns, since they probably expect us to withdraw back across the border once the current set of fighting is over, and it's plausible we'll leave a bunch of spiked cannons behind). And spiking is often reversible. Not easily or quickly, but in the medium-long term those cannons can likely be put to use for the 6th army nonetheless.

Red Rationalist said:

Hm, I misread their provincial status. It seems like they have a history worth mentioning, which indicates they fought in a number of wars. It might be more accurate to consider them border armies, which have fought Arné for quite some time. This triumph meant more than expected.

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I think they're still a provincial army from this:

Photomajig said:

von Wachenheim's forces are mostly local provincial troops; well-drilled, for sure, but inexperienced.

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But provincial armies presumably have their own history as long as there's been, well, a province to be the army of. The Army of the West likely has a long history of having been involved in conflicts against Arne.

[X] Demand the guns are destroyed instead. A compromise solution may satisfy their notions of honor - they'll wreck the guns before they go, preventing either side from making use of them.

Chimeraguard said:

I think they're still a provincial army from this:

But provincial armies presumably have their own history as long as there's been, well, a province. The Army of the West likely has a long history of having been involved in conflicts against Arne.

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That is what I meant, yes. Provincial armies seem to have some degree of significance, rather than being second-grade troops raised quickly for a conflict.

Red Rationalist said:

That is what I meant, yes. Provincial armies seem to have some degree of significance, rather than being second-grade troops raised quickly for a conflict.

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That seemed pretty obvious?

*Googles provincial armies and sees the US/UK context*

Ah. I get it.

Yeah. Not provincial in terms of being raised for a single campaign. But provincial in terms of mostly recruiting from locals / recruiting from the province they are stationed in. A standard formation with its quality more often than not dependent on the local soldier stock (and sometimes equipment), and the prominence of the province in question.

[X] Demand the guns are destroyed instead. A compromise solution may satisfy their notions of honor - they'll wreck the guns before they go, preventing either side from making use of them.
-[X]mention, we hace orders to "REMOVE your artillery", you have order to "PREVENT they fall in our hands", if they get destroyed we both fullfil the SPIRIT of the orders and WE prevent inneserary issues, this is not a treath merely a "way out" that lets us both remain loyal to put respective superiors.

Red Rationalist said:

I don't have a strong desire for either siege or assault, the defensible position and opportunity to replenish our reserves after the battle will do us more than just 2 guns.

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I really don't agree. Two regiments worth of field guns would cost us 300 influence, that's a lot even if we assume that number is currently higher than normal. You could say that 5th army is good on cannons for now, but I think having extras to pass on to 6th army would help a lot.

Also, we're going to get the opportunity to replenish our reserves no matter what, assuming we get a march turn at all. Spending influence on experienced troops is still the best way to recruit, and we've got enough influence for that. The 'defensible position' isn't that useful unless we intend to hunker down inside Daurstein. If we're planning to fight von Trotha in the field, then the fortifications don't matter except as an extra fallback position since we already had Martelnac.

NotInventedHere said:

They're very unlikely to have the time and equipment to do more than spike the guns (and probably don't want to do more than spike the guns, since they probably expect us to withdraw back across the border once the current set of fighting is over, and it's plausible we'll leave a bunch of spiked cannons behind). And spiking is often reversible. Not easily or quickly, but in the medium-long term those cannons can likely be put to use for the 6th army nonetheless.

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If they spike the guns poorly then fixing them will be relatively simple (IE they don't have specialized spikes or have to rush it), if they do it correctly it'll be quite a hassle (we'd have to drill a new hole), but yes, we could fix them eventually. I'm not sure about spiking being their only option. They should have the necessary equipment to do something more permanent somewhere in the city and I think we're giving them a day to gather supplies and pack up, so they'll have some time to get creative.

WGDragoon said:

I really don't agree. Two regiments worth of field guns would cost us 300 influence, that's a lot even if we assume that number is currently higher than normal. You could say that 5th army is good on cannons for now, but I think having extras to pass on to 6th army would help a lot.

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How much influence is replacing all the losses after we're forced to storm the city?

WGDragoon said:

I really don't agree. Two regiments worth of field guns would cost us 300 influence, that's a lot even if we assume that number is currently higher than normal. You could say that 5th army is good on cannons for now, but I think having extras to pass on to 6th army would help a lot.

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It would help the 6th, that much is undeniable. But the question is if that matters in remaining campaign compared to drilling and improving the experienced 5th. If we look beyond that, production of the field artillery makes the capture of those two irrelevant and we care about offensive momentum. The 6th is slow, probably badly drilled and would have trouble following us on the offensive. We will probably have to ditch them if we want to take the remaining cities quickly. I also think there will be future opportunities to capture guns, especially from Trotha.

WGDragoon said:

Also, we're going to get the opportunity to replenish our reserves no matter what, assuming we get a march turn at all. Spending influence on experienced troops is still the best way to recruit, and we've got enough influence for that. The 'defensible position' isn't that useful unless we intend to hunker down inside Daurstein. If we're planning to fight von Trotha in the field, then the fortifications don't matter except as an extra fallback position since we already had Martelnac.

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Buying reinforcements with influence hinders our ability to upgrade our troops. It sacrifices long-term gain for short-term benefits, while keeping our army at the same level since most advanced equipment is gatekept behind it. It's an option, but one that would probably mean forgoing getting 10th horse artillery, which means fewer big offensives in the long term. Buying reinforcements with influence is something we want to avoid when possible.

Secondly, taking Daurstein absolutely matters. An assault is bloody, and the siege requires our army to surround the city, making our positioning less flexible since we need to prevent a breakout from the remaining forces. With bad luck, the 5th could stay as a thorn in our side if they last longer than a week, attacking our rear at just the wrong moment. For a good defense, we really want to secure the city.

Uniquelyequal said:

How much influence is replacing all the losses after we're forced to storm the city?

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Assuming we take ~2000 casualties and replace them with Regulars? Like 100 influence. An assault will also scatter or capture the Army of the West, so it isn't all downsides. We're going to have to fight most of these guys later anyway.

Red Rationalist said:

Buying reinforcements with influence hinders our ability to upgrade our troops. It sacrifices long-term gain for short-term benefits, while keeping our army at the same level since most advanced equipment is gatekept behind it. It's an option, but one that would probably mean forgoing getting 10th horse artillery, which means fewer big offensives in the long term. Buying reinforcements with influence is something we want to avoid when possible.

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It's way better than recruiting locals for now, we don't have the spare march actions for it and buying experienced troops also gets us better quality soldiers. Experienced troops are currently insanely cheap, and they aren't going to be for much longer. Recruiting locals is currently worse than just spending the march actions on influence to buy experienced troops with, like ~1000 regulars vs ~350 (~500 for Haflings) green recruits worse.

WGDragoon said:

It's way better than recruiting locals for now, we don't have the spare march actions for it and buying experienced troops also gets us better quality soldiers. Experienced troops are currently insanely cheap, and they aren't going to be for much longer. Recruiting locals is currently worse than just spending the march actions on influence to buy experienced troops with, like ~1000 regulars vs ~350 (~500 for Haflings) green recruits worse.

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That isn't the only option on the table. We get regular supply columns, including reserve manpower, without having to spend army actions. A siege or an assault is also going to cost time, time that could be spent on drilling our army. You're correct that experienced manpower is fairly cheap, but I want another unit of horse artillery, leaving us with 35 influence to spare. If we want to have really good units, we should save our influence where we can.

WGDragoon said:

An assault will also scatter or capture the Army of the West, so it isn't all downsides. We're going to have to fight most of these guys later anyway.

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I don't expect them to put up much of a fight after a week. They are severely understrength, have low morale and their drill has fallen. Even if you put them in the rear, they are little more than a garrison force.

[X] Accept these terms. This is more or less what you wanted. You accept the terms.

[X] Demand the guns are destroyed instead. A compromise solution may satisfy their notions of honor - they'll wreck the guns before they go, preventing either side from making use of them.

Red Rationalist said:

That isn't the only option on the table. We get regular supply columns, including reserve manpower, without having to spend army actions. A siege or an assault is also going to cost time, time that could be spent on drilling our army. You're correct that experienced manpower is fairly cheap, but I want another unit of horse artillery, leaving us with 35 influence to spare. If we want to have really good units, we should save our influence where we can.

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We're getting the regular supply columns anyway; they aren't an advantage specific to capturing Daurstein. They're also not necessarily going to give us the troops we need, we're currently short on Haflings for example. Buying the horse artillery also isn't my preferred choice right now, I'd like to pick up rifles for our human regiments and experienced troops while they're still cheap. Horse artillery is a big upgrade, but field artillery is good enough and we've got a lot of it.

Red Rationalist said:

I don't expect them to put up much of a fight after a week. They are severely understrength, have low morale and their drill has fallen. Even if you put them in the rear, they are little more than a garrison force.

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If von Trotha picks them up most of those issues will be mitigated. The Army of the Center probably has some reserves to patch the non-minority regiments up with and the moral and drill will get merged between the two forces based on relative size. The Army of the West remnants, has around 3000-4000 men (depending on which and how many regiments broke up), which is between 1/4 and 1/3 the size of Center. So, von Trotha's force should lose around 1 moral (reducing Centers moral by a fourth since West has none) and 1 drill (since West still has drill left, but less then Center), afterwards the Army of the West remnants would be back in fighting shape.

The Nymph regiment probably can't be fully repaired, since Trotha wouldn't have bothered recruiting any Nymphs beforehand, but they're professional and would have lost veterancy if they had been replenished.

WGDragoon said:

They're also not necessarily going to give us the specific troops we need, we're currently short on Haflings for example. Buying the horse artillery also isn't my preferred choice right now, I'd like to pick up rifles for our human regiments and experienced troops while they're still cheap.

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They included halflings last time, no reason they wouldn't include them again. And I don't think any other choice would be as impactful as a second horse artillery.

WGDragoon said:

If von Trotha picks them up most of those issues will be mitigated.

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They can't be drilled to keep up with the army, and their morale can't replenished during a week in which they retreated without proper leadership. An army moves as fast as the slowest unit in the column, so I would ditch the stragglers if I were in Wachenheim's position.

WGDragoon said:

The Army of the West remnants, has around 3000-4000 men (depending on which and how many regiments broke up), which is between 1/4 and 1/3 the size of Center. So, von Trotha's force should lose around 1 moral (reducing Centers moral by a fourth since West has none) and 1 drill (since West still has drill left, but less then Center), afterwards the Army of the West remnants would be back in fighting shape.

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I don't think that's how that would work, especially regarding drill. You can't average a lame horse and 3 fast ones to 4 average horses, the lame horse needs move on it's own. Plus, there is the issue of those units not being integrated into the army, and having to be resupplied. Quite a bit of hassle, especially as the units would only meet the army somewhere around Day 3-4, after retreating without real rest or resupply. Integrating units takes to much time to be practical, thus relegating the drags to a rearguard position around Engelsburg.

Red Rationalist said:

They can't be drilled to keep up with the army, and their morale can't replenished during a week in which they retreated without proper leadership. An army moves as fast as the slowest unit in the column, so I would ditch the stragglers if I were in Wachenheim's position.

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They should still be able to march fast enough to keep up with Center unless von Trotha calls for a forced march. The extra negative events for low drill or moral start happening when you have 2 or less if I recall correctly, and the Army of the West should still have 3-4 drill left since they started at 7. They won't slow down a normal march, and drill doesn't have that dramatic an effect on marching speed anyway. The Nornish armies aren't significantly faster than us just because they have a lot more drill.

Red Rationalist said:

I don't think that's how that would work, especially regarding drill. You can't average a lame horse and 3 fast ones to 4 average horses, the lame horse needs move on it's own. Plus, there is the issue of those units not being integrated into the army and having to be resupplied. Quite a bit of hassle, especially as the units would only meet the army somewhere around Day 3-4, after retreating without real rest or resupply. Integrating units takes to much time to be practical, thus relegating the drags to a rearguard position around Engelsburg.

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Importantly we don't track moral and drill separately for every single unit. So, if Center picks up the Army of the West and integrates them in the same way they scooped up the royalist cavalry that'll stop being an issue. Also, we are letting the Army of the West resupply as part of the terms we're giving them, they're free to gather the supplies they'll need before leaving the city. We should assume they're going to take whatever supplies the Daurstein militia has too since they're being disbanded.

@Photomajig how long would integrating the Army of the West remnants take von Trotha? I was assuming it'd be a march action equivalent discounting the moral and drill he'd lose, IE having to stop for 4-5 days to sort it out. Is it significantly harder than that?

[x] Demand the guns are destroyed instead.

Photomajig said:

As the most senior officer of the Royal Nornish Army, together with the chosen representative of the Daurstein Meisterrat, Herr Kastler, I am to relay the following..."

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Ok, this caught my eye. Meisterrat is German(?) for Masters' council, or something sinilar. It seems like Daurstein has a ruling council who are not all Elven nobles, instead they seem to have a Dwarf in a pretty high position since they sent him to meet us. Indeed, I think this is likely a parallell to the Burgher social class of educated, rich city-dwellers (bourgeoise), who emerged around this period and clashed with the traditional nobility (Bildungsbürgertum - Wikipedia). I think this is likely the faction who are in favor of a surrender, since rich city landowners likely do not want their city raided and sacked.

Historically, ideas these educated, non aristocrat upper classes did have lots of revolutionary sentiment, as they had money and education, but lacked the privileges of nobility. This propably goes double for non-Elves in this setting. Wahhenheim also confirmed that there has been some recolutionary sentiment and unrest in Norn as well.

I am therefore wondering, if we play our cards right here, if we could find some actual allies in Daurstein. It is very likely there are people in the city not happy with the current state of thibgs in Norn, so it might be worthwhile to try and find those people and recruit them.

It likely comes down to how patriotic and Nornish these people consider themselves to be. Historically, much of the upper class did subscribe to nationalism and wanted a unified Germany, unfortunately. However, things might be different here, since there is also a racial and gender divide.

If we take the city, we could try to convince the Arnese convention to treat them as Citizens, rather than as a conquered people. If the convention rules that the Declaration of Universal Rights also holds for former Nornish territories, we will likely win a lot of friends in Daurstein. There is also the possibility of promising Daurstein some autonomy in exchange for active support during the war rather than incoorporating them in Arne proper. As a provincial city far from Nornish heartland, the people of Daurstein might just be more loyal to Daurstein itself than to Norn...

[X] Demand the guns are destroyed instead. A compromise solution may satisfy their notions of honor - they'll wreck the guns before they go, preventing either side from making use of them.

[X] Demand the guns are destroyed instead. A compromise solution may satisfy their notions of honor - they'll wreck the guns before they go, preventing either side from making use of them.

Meisterrats have been mentioned twice before: once by the Dwarven commander we saw at Mauvais Plain, and once by von Wachenheim.

Mauvais Plain said:

He understands well, though. The Legions go where the Meisterrat commands, but there is no pleasure to be had in fighting under a false flag for a foreign king. Arné has gone mad, but that is not their business. If there is to be war, let there be war, not these mercenary games. There is a right way to do things. What use are these boorish deceptions?

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von Wach said:

That gives him pause. His brow furrows, as if this is a different concept to grasp. Finally, he nods. "No, indeed not, Frau Durand. In the fatherland, we allow dwarves to lead their own, it being a royal privilege for their meisterrats to raise, equip and train their own regiments."

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Both quotes give us roughly the same nugget of information: Dwarven meisterrats have significant rights and wield real power. While Daurstein is somewhat small, larger cities like Heidenheim and Schwarzberg can raise regiments and even send them off as mercenaries (though obviously with the king approving and probably picking up the tab). There's some real self-governance here, like you'd see in German cities of the period.

My sense then, although it's just speculation, is that the role assigned to dwarves in Norn is not so much that of the little burghers who drove the French revolution but that of the grand burghers - guild-like institutions wherever they might still exist, trading companies, bankers, large industrialists. While they might have abstract reasons to be against absolutism, their rights were not trampled like they were elsewhere, and they were generally pretty happy with the degree of autonomy and prosperity they were granted.

That's not to say Norn is perfectly stable. Their worldbuilding entry mentions that one of the reasons for their intervention was fear of unrest spreading into their territory. Perhaps dwarves on the bottom end of the urban pyramid will start grumbling, or humans (locked into a similar burgher/merchant niche but without such an elevated status) will cause some trouble. But in that case, fearing the people that they're ruling over more than the people who rule over them is just another reason for the meisterrats to cheer for us to lose.

[X] Demand the guns are destroyed instead. A compromise solution may satisfy their notions of honor - they'll wreck the guns before they go, preventing either side from making use of them.

I'm likely too late on this, but would you accept a write in? How about turning the guns over to the burghers? That might assuage the city residents' fears somewhat while also removing them from the battlefield, maintaining the army's desire to preserve its honor, and the guns could be taken at some later date.

It also serves the purpose of the revolutionary spirit by handing control over to the people rather than the imperial government.

WGDragoon said:

They should still be able to march fast enough to keep up with Center unless von Trotha calls for a forced march. The extra negative events for low drill or moral start happening when you have 2 or less if I recall correctly,

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Ehm, I don't know where you're getting this from. A d20 is rolled for drill events, with the drill of an army acting as a modifier. We haven't seen the table there, but 10 is perfectly neutral. So 9 and lower are probably bad events.

WGDragoon said:

Army of the West should still have 3-4 drill left since they started at 7. They won't slow down a normal march, and drill doesn't have that dramatic an effect on marching speed anyway.

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I don't think your assessment is accurate here. Now, I don't even know if combining armies is ruled to be possible, considering that drill has always been an army-wide stat; but aside from that: Armies that have low drill may march at a similar top speed, but have a tendency to be slowed down by accidents. Case and point, we are still waiting for the 6th to arrive in Antreville, with them being 2 days later than their supposed latest date of arrival. And for an army that relies on highly drilled armies for operations, being slowed down for the critical battle to prevent even more reinforcements at Daurstein, including the battered rest of the Western Army is going to be unappealing.

WGDragoon said:

So, if Center picks up the Army of the West and integrates them in the same way they scooped up the royalist cavalry that'll stop being an issue. Also, we are letting the Army of the West resupply as part of the terms we're giving them, they're free to gather the supplies they'll need before leaving the city.

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They had 2 weeks for integrating 2 units of cavalry. You are talking about integrating 5 units after encountering them on the march, with vastly inferior drill, no command structure and so on over the course of about 4 days while marching quickly towards Daurstein (3 available army actions maybe?, 2 that could be used once the armies met up). I think this idea is way to optimistic regarding army integration.

Regarding the resupply: The terms don't actually state they are allowed to resupply, only that they can withdraw with supplies they have.

Photomajig said:

-Enemy troops are allowed withdraw with their arms, supplies and cannons without harassment until they reach the Raoille river

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Obviously they could get a few more from the town guard, but I don't think they will be equipped for a 4 days march followed by a battle. Remember, we captured the HQ of the western army, including rations and munitions. The city could have some, but as a 0 morale remnant of an army I certainly wouldn't include sufficient munitions for a second battle after I withdraw. I would be travelling lightly and travel with food, not powder.