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Terminus Quest: A CKII Mass Effect Quest

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If we break it down both have their good sides and bad sides.
Trading in a favour allows us some leverage on the political side of things which is good.
Pro's
  • Get a law passed without much issue.
  • We ease some ruffled feathers over the Maroon Sea.
  • It'll broadly help the Terminus Alliance probably with the economic growth due to it being volus.
  • It might result in getting a standardised economy set up and possibly economic aid to struggling polities.
Con's
  • Probably slower economic growth with it being spread out over all the Terminus systems.
  • It won't be directed and it could very well be used for something else and not be a good thing.
  • Most of the Terminus Systems are either made up of opportunists and warlords with one or two outliers and could strong-arm unfavourable deals on weaker members.

While if we Invest in our own economy we know it'll be put to good use.
Pro's
  • Ensures our economy will stabilise and unscrew itself with its efficiencies allowing us to focus elsewhere.
  • Bigger budget in the future so we can do even larger projects
  • Faster Economic growth since it will be focused purely on us.
  • We will eventually be able to aid our allies with economic aid.
  • A stronger economy means a bigger navy in the future with which we can ensure the warlords and greedy members in the Terminus Alliance don't get any ideas and allows us to leverage more political power.
Con's
  • We'll be the only ones benefiting from it and our competing polities in our alliance are gonna cause a stink.
  • We'll likely have to deal with espionage.
(Can't think of much more but I'm sure a few things can be pointed out.

I honestly want the Investment more mostly because it does make us a lot stronger and keep us more prominent in the Alliance. though giving the Terminus Alliance the favour will no doubt make it stronger in the long run, as long as it's used properly. I'm just worried that since it'll be widespread we could see the Stronger powers in the Alliance managing to gain an edge in politics again since we are the only balancing factor for our political party.
 
Ridiculous overreaction by our allies in the Terminus Alliance but I guess you can't really expect anything else out of a bunch of paranoid tin-pot dictators and PTSD-riddled genocide survivors. I was initially inclined to leave the Maroon Sea fairly empty out of a desire to see if we could get the Rachni to overextend and set up some kind of ambush or conduct a raiding sortie but the political realities dictate that we have to deploy a reasonable defense fleet and fight any attack conventionally.

As others have said, the Volus are the premier economic and financial power in the galaxy. Asking for something else, particularly when our economy is still hurting, just makes no sense to me. Maybe people have made some smart proposals on things we could pass with our favor that I've glossed over but I can't come up with anything that would benefit us more in the short-to-medium term than an economic stimulus package designed by the best economists out there. And as Keynes himself said: "In the long run we are all dead" though in our case it's the Rachni than natural causes unless we manage to deal with them. Something which a well-oiled economy would help with immensely.


[X][EXTINCTION] Only bombard worthless rocks. You want to preserve anything you know to contain valuable resources or facilities, but there's no harm in scratching the worthless asteroids that the Rachni occupy purely to be a pain in the ass off the list.
[X][MAROON] Conventionally. Deploy the 2nd Battle Fleet to Maroon Sea. Have one of your raiding fleets pick up patrol duties in Sentry Omega. That will provide a powerful deterrent to any attempts at moving in, and if the rachni try anyway, you should be able to hold long enough to bring in reinforcements.
[X][FAVOR] Investment. The finances of Irune are without equal. You want that money moving to prop up enterprises within your space, on generous terms.

[X][PLAN] Plan Business as usual even if they are Ardat-Yakshi.
-[X] Republics cooperation. How closely will you work with the experts in this field? They will have conditions.
--[X] You will pass information on ardat-yakshi fugitives back and forth, but little more (you must take no options marked, [BREACH].
-[X] Scope of reveal. You can do nothing to compel others to keep the secret save whatever is available to you, in-character.
--[X] You will establish a formal government agency to handle the matter of ardat-yakshi within Commonwealth space.
-[X] Ardat-yakshi recruits. Do they have a place in these efforts?
--[X] You'll recruit them in advisory capacities to inform policy.
-[X] Aim of efforts. What are you planning on doing about the ardat-yakshi? To an extent all of these will happen, but what is your point?
--[X] Treatment and support. Fundamentally, this is a public health issue, and you'll treat it as such with an eye to allowing victims to function in society as best they can.
 
uju32 said:
Its explicitly stated that the Tech option has limits because they dont want to offend the Citadel. At least not too much.

I do not see any IC reason why the Diplomacy option wouldnt have similar limits.
Especially since they arent great at Diplomacy as a faction.
And with the Tamaras Rim having seceded several years ago, diplomacy with the TA will draw the attention of the big boys.

At least money they can justify as money. And as investing in and around the volus garden world.
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Yeah, it's an ex-post-facto limitation. The Citadel can't actually stop them, the Citadel will just be annoyed after the fact.

You're thinking of it the wrong way by thinking of it as "the Diplomacy option" and going "well, that's not what the volus are good at, so don't pick it." Here's the way I'm thinking of it:
  • Keep it for ourselves, picking one of
    • Economy for Attican Commonwealth
    • Tech for Attican Commonwealth
    • Write-in for Attican Commonwealth
  • Give it to the Terminus Alliance, resulting in them picking one of
    • Economy for Terminus Alliance
    • Tech for Terminus Alliance
    • Write-in for Terminus Alliance
There's no actual difference in what the volus are doing. It's just a question of who is getting it. "Diplomacy" isn't a factor, or rather you could say that it's a factor on both sides of the equation and so cancels out: anything the volus have to justify to the Citadel after the fact when dealing with the TA, they'd also have to justify after the fact when dealing with us (since, well, we're part of the TA!).
 
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picklepikkl said:
There's no actual difference between the size of the favor. It's just a question of who is getting it.
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In theory, that's true but the Volus only have so much they can give, so the question is do we want it focused on us which will be a massive shot in the arm for our economy or a wider investment which will be great for the whole Terminus alliance but it won't be that much of an increase but would get the ball rolling on our joint economy.
 
Mad0Slayer said:
In theory, that's true but the Volus only have so much they can give, so the question is do we want it focused on us which will be a massive shot in the arm for our economy or a wider investment which will be great for the whole Terminus alliance but it won't be that much of an increase but would get the ball rolling on our joint economy.
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I completely agree! And I talked about that in my post two pages ago:
picklepikkl said:
Can we benefit from the investment? Yes, I think the case for that is very convincing. But we're no longer just Virmire on our own, we are a constituent polity of an alliance and we need to get used to thinking about what's best for our team as a whole, not just for us individually. And I'd rather spend this AP on getting the volus to help the rest of the TA, which contains a number of less-developed economies that need help more badly than we do, than on getting the volus to invest in us and then needing to budget further AP later to help the rest of the TA out of our larger economy.
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The thing I'm arguing with uju about is that he seems to believe that the volus would be more restricted in what they can give to the TA as a whole than in what they can give to us, which I do not think is at all justified by the text.
 
Definitely personally under the impression investment in us is better, because I fully expect to have problems with the Corporate Nation. Beyond that, our entry into the Terminus Alliance was predicated on the idea that we would be a prominent member, the more we grow as a polity relative to the Alliance the more true that is. I want us to be actually prominent, to be The Big Stick of the Alliance, and known as such. And we need to keep growing, and growing fast for that to happen.
 
uju32 said:
*raises eyebrow*
Is that what this implies:

Because, otherwise, if Im understanding this correctly, the Terminus Alliance can already make individual trade deals with the Volus. Or the Asari.
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Yeah. You're not offering a permission slip, you're offering leverage. This is you telling the TA that you know the guy who runs the convenience store and you can get them something for the family and friend rate. They can go in and purchase things when they like, but you can give them an in for cheaper shit.
 
uju32 said:
1) The Volus arent any good at diplomacy.
If they were even halfway good at it, they would have leveraged their economic influence into a seat at the big boy table. Instead they ended up a protectorate of the Turians.
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This is in fact a bonus. The Volus will be attempting to negotiate down how much they give to Terminus, while Terminus will be trying to wring out every drop they can.
This is not a diplomacy favor from the Volus. This is the same favor as investment, just directed at Terminus so Terminus owes us.
 
[X][EXTINCTION] Only bombard worthless rocks. You want to preserve anything you know to contain valuable resources or facilities, but there's no harm in scratching the worthless asteroids that the Rachni occupy purely to be a pain in the ass off the list.

[X][MAROON] Conventionally. Deploy the 2nd Battle Fleet to Maroon Sea. Have one of your raiding fleets pick up patrol duties in Sentry Omega. That will provide a powerful deterrent to any attempts at moving in, and if the rachni try anyway, you should be able to hold long enough to bring in reinforcements.

[X][FAVOR] Ask for something on behalf of the Terminus Alliance, which they will pick, in exchange for one vote of your choice passed without a veto in the Council.

[X][PLAN] Plan Business as usual even if they are Ardat-Yakshi.
 
picklepikkl said:
The thing I'm arguing with uju about is that he seems to believe that the volus would be more restricted in what they can give to the TA as a whole than in what they can give to us, which I do not think is at all justified by the text.
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1) I genuinely think thats a possibility.

Giving a lot of money/investing in a smaller polity has fewer potential complications about getting it back than from a larger political entity. Especially when many, if not most of the governments in play are largely less than thirty years old.
How much would you lend to a bunch of newcomers with no credit history and plenty of guns?


2) There is a chance that the priorities of at least some of the rest of the Alliance may not be our own in this instance.
And the depth of feeling in other Alliance members are not the same as ours.
Assuming that they vote for the same things seems...unwise.

Remember that prior to war breaking out, Virmire was the Citadel's pet experiment and favored child.
Not a bunch of exploited/neglected extraction targets and the like out in the Terminus.
We dont really have any grudges.


===
What I appear to understand you seem to be arguing is that we would both get an economic benefit from any Volus: Terminus Alliance economic deal(assuming an economic deal) plus a one-time veto that we get to play inside the Terminus Alliance itself.
Am I understanding you right? Because that seems unlikely.

Zauberin said:
This is in fact a bonus. The Volus will be attempting to negotiate down how much they give to Terminus, while Terminus will be trying to wring out every drop they can.This is not a diplomacy favor from the Volus. This is the same favor as investment, just directed at Terminus so Terminus owes us.
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In my experience, people who arent good at stuff tend to be conservative about getting involved in it, if they dont avoid it completely.
Bad swimmers dont try to swim across the English Channel.
 
[X][MAROON] Conventionally. Deploy the 2nd Battle Fleet to Maroon Sea. Have one of your raiding fleets pick up patrol duties in Sentry Omega. That will provide a powerful deterrent to any attempts at moving in, and if the rachni try anyway, you should be able to hold long enough to bring in reinforcements.
[X][FAVOR] Investment. The finances of Irune are without equal. You want that money moving to prop up enterprises within your space, on generous terms.
 
[X][EXTINCTION] Only bombard worthless rocks. You want to preserve anything you know to contain valuable resources or facilities, but there's no harm in scratching the worthless asteroids that the Rachni occupy purely to be a pain in the ass off the list.

[X][MAROON] Conventionally. Deploy the 2nd Battle Fleet to Maroon Sea. Have one of your raiding fleets pick up patrol duties in Sentry Omega. That will provide a powerful deterrent to any attempts at moving in, and if the rachni try anyway, you should be able to hold long enough to bring in reinforcements.

[X][FAVOR] Ask for something on behalf of the Terminus Alliance, which they will pick, in exchange for one vote of your choice passed without a veto in the Council.

[X][PLAN] Plan Business as usual even if they are Ardat-Yakshi.
-[X] Republics cooperation. How closely will you work with the experts in this field? They will have conditions.
--[X] You will pass information on ardat-yakshi fugitives back and forth, but little more (you must take no options marked, [BREACH].
-[X] Scope of reveal. You can do nothing to compel others to keep the secret save whatever is available to you, in-character.
--[X] You will establish a formal government agency to handle the matter of ardat-yakshi within Commonwealth space.
-[X] Ardat-yakshi recruits. Do they have a place in these efforts?
--[X] You'll recruit them in advisory capacities to inform policy.
-[X] Aim of efforts. What are you planning on doing about the ardat-yakshi? To an extent all of these will happen, but what is your point?
--[X] Treatment and support. Fundamentally, this is a public health issue, and you'll treat it as such with an eye to allowing victims to function in society as best they can.
 
[X][MAROON] Conventionally. Deploy the 2nd Battle Fleet to Maroon Sea. Have one of your raiding fleets pick up patrol duties in Sentry Omega. That will provide a powerful deterrent to any attempts at moving in, and if the rachni try anyway, you should be able to hold long enough to bring in reinforcements.

[X][FAVOR] Investment. The finances of Irune are without equal. You want that money moving to prop up enterprises within your space, on generous terms.

[X][PLAN] Plan Business as usual even if they are Ardat-Yakshi.
 
uju32 said:
1) I genuinely think thats a possibility.

Giving a lot of money/investing in a smaller polity has fewer potential complications about getting it back than from a larger political entity. Especially when many, if not most of the governments in play are largely less than thirty years old.
How much would you lend to a bunch of newcomers with no credit history and plenty of guns?
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But the thing is that, as PoptartProdigy confirmed:
PoptartProdigy said:
Yeah. You're not offering a permission slip, you're offering leverage. This is you telling the TA that you know the guy who runs the convenience store and you can get them something for the family and friend rate. They can go in and purchase things when they like, but you can give them an in for cheaper shit.
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The Vol Union isn't negotiating with the Terminus Alliance, they're negotiating with us. We spend our favor on saying, "hey, nothing for me, thanks, but can you hook up my buddies?" We give up our chance at the friends and family rate and give it to the TA. There's no implication in any QM post that there's one rate for us and another, worse rate for them.
uju32 said:
What I appear to understand you seem to be arguing is that we would both get an economic benefit from any Volus: Terminus Alliance economic deal(assuming an economic deal) plus a one-time veto that we get to play inside the Terminus Alliance itself.
Am I understanding you right? Because that seems unlikely.
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Oh, don't worry, I'm not arguing that we're double dipping here, you and I are on the same page about that. We benefit, sure, but only in the long-term sense of "it benefits us for the other polities in our confederation to be stronger," which I think is obvious? No short-term benefits, not expecting anything mechanical like an income boost, just "it's good if the people that we yoked ourselves to for the purposes of fighting the rachni are stronger". Plus, we get the PR benefits from being a team player (which, uh, we kind of need right now, given the hit we just took from not prioritizing defending the Maroon Sea) and a one-time veto-proof vote in our favor, which is much better for our purposes than a one-time veto. (Every member gets a veto, remember that stuff in the higher chamber of the TA has to be unanimous to pass if it concerns internal policy.)
 
The PR from not defending the maroon sea already should recover so long as we begin to, and keep it from Rachni hands. Which we should be able to manage with the In Force and hopefully Conventionally maroon sea options and taking the action to shore up the Maroon Sea more permanently next turn.
 
[X][EXTINCTION] Bombard almost everything besides locations of particular value. While some locations the Rachni occupy hold value in mundane resources and infrastructure, they're nothing we can't replicate ourselves or get elsewhere with little issue. However a few places hold unique or extremely valuable resources that are absolutely worth the effort of taking by force such as Precursor ruins and significant Eezo deposits.

[X][MAROON] Conventionally. Deploy the 2nd Battle Fleet to Maroon Sea. Have one of your raiding fleets pick up patrol duties in Sentry Omega. That will provide a powerful deterrent to any attempts at moving in, and if the rachni try anyway, you should be able to hold long enough to bring in reinforcements.

[X][FAVOR] Tech transfers
Give me that energy generation tech that also provides detailed theory for weapons development (as a what not to do). It doesn't sound like we're trading away our tech just that we're buying some of what's out there.

Edit: going with investment since it has traction and we're building a new army and navy.
[X][FAVOR] Investment. The finances of Irune are without equal. You want that money moving to prop up enterprises within your space, on generous terms.

[X][PLAN] Plan Business as usual even if they are Ardat-Yakshi.
 
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uju32 said:
In my experience, people who arent good at stuff tend to be conservative about getting involved in it, if they dont avoid it completely.
Bad swimmers dont try to swim across the English Channel.
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Volus have decent diplomacy, their simply up up against the masters of diplomacy and intrigue when their trying to justify a council seat. They could still pull it off if it wouldn't be entirely too high cost for a low return.

Further more, stewardship can substitute for diplomacy in some cases in CK2. Volus are masters of the art of the deal, and they know how much an investment by the volus clans will draw other investors to a business or colony. They know what their investment is worth, and it's not like success is dictated entirely by skill. No amount of negotiation is going to measure up to genuine gratitude and willingness to take a loss to repay a dept.
picklepikkl said:
Plus, we get the PR benefits from being a team player (which, uh, we kind of need right now, given the hit we just took from not prioritizing defending the Maroon Sea)
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Also, like, the squabbling over what to do with this favor and news of the favor will immediately eclipse the Maroon sea being undefended. Big morale boost across the galactic north, and no one is talking about the commonwealth dropping the ball.
 
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[X][EXTINCTION] Only bombard worthless rocks. You want to preserve anything you know to contain valuable resources or facilities, but there's no harm in scratching the worthless asteroids that the Rachni occupy purely to be a pain in the ass off the list.
[X][MAROON] Conventionally. Deploy the 2nd Battle Fleet to Maroon Sea. Have one of your raiding fleets pick up patrol duties in Sentry Omega. That will provide a powerful deterrent to any attempts at moving in, and if the rachni try anyway, you should be able to hold long enough to bring in reinforcements.
[X][FAVOR] Investment. The finances of Irune are without equal. You want that money moving to prop up enterprises within your space, on generous terms.

[X][PLAN] Plan Business as usual even if they are Ardat-Yakshi.
-[X] Republics cooperation. How closely will you work with the experts in this field? They will have conditions.
--[X] You will pass information on ardat-yakshi fugitives back and forth, but little more (you must take no options marked, [BREACH].
-[X] Scope of reveal. You can do nothing to compel others to keep the secret save whatever is available to you, in-character.
--[X] You will establish a formal government agency to handle the matter of ardat-yakshi within Commonwealth space.
-[X] Ardat-yakshi recruits. Do they have a place in these efforts?
--[X] You'll recruit them in advisory capacities to inform policy.
-[X] Aim of efforts. What are you planning on doing about the ardat-yakshi? To an extent all of these will happen, but what is your point?
--[X] Treatment and support. Fundamentally, this is a public health issue, and you'll treat it as such with an eye to allowing victims to function in society as best they can.
 
[X][EXTINCTION] Only bombard worthless rocks. You want to preserve anything you know to contain valuable resources or facilities, but there's no harm in scratching the worthless asteroids that the Rachni occupy purely to be a pain in the ass off the list.

[X][MAROON] Conventionally. Deploy the 2nd Battle Fleet to Maroon Sea. Have one of your raiding fleets pick up patrol duties in Sentry Omega. That will provide a powerful deterrent to any attempts at moving in, and if the rachni try anyway, you should be able to hold long enough to bring in reinforcements.

[X][FAVOR] Ask for something on behalf of the Terminus Alliance, which they will pick, in exchange for one vote of your choice passed without a veto in the Council.

[X][PLAN] Plan Business as usual even if they are Ardat-Yakshi.
-[X] Republics cooperation. How closely will you work with the experts in this field? They will have conditions.
--[X] You will pass information on ardat-yakshi fugitives back and forth, but little more (you must take no options marked, [BREACH].
-[X] Scope of reveal. You can do nothing to compel others to keep the secret save whatever is available to you, in-character.
--[X] You will establish a formal government agency to handle the matter of ardat-yakshi within Commonwealth space.
-[X] Ardat-yakshi recruits. Do they have a place in these efforts?
--[X] You'll recruit them in advisory capacities to inform policy.
-[X] Aim of efforts. What are you planning on doing about the ardat-yakshi? To an extent all of these will happen, but what is your point?
--[X] Treatment and support. Fundamentally, this is a public health issue, and you'll treat it as such with an eye to allowing victims to function in society as best they can.
 
Mad0Slayer said:
It won't be directed and it could very well be used for something else and not be a good thing.
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Right, about this, when the volus talk about investing, there picking and choosing what there investing in. At best terminus can pick a polity for them to focus on, maybe not even that much if they take to long arguing things out. The part that makes this such a good deal is the more favorable rate and guarantee they'll invest in something good because their fucking volus, and they know what to invest in.
uju32 said:
1) I genuinely think thats a possibility.
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Yeah, you seem to think that despite Poptart largely indicating that there no more restricted than they would be with us. In general you have been posting a lot about how this in general isn't going to work out well, without evidence, despite several qm posts indicating that it's not much different for the Volus to do either the investment or tech favor for terminus as compared to us.
PoptartProdigy said:
Yeah. You're not offering a permission slip, you're offering leverage. This is you telling the TA that you know the guy who runs the convenience store and you can get them something for the family and friend rate. They can go in and purchase things when they like, but you can give them an in for cheaper shit.
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As this particular analogy implies, we have a special coupon we can use at the Volus special booth for a one time discount. We are giving it to the terminus with the related vote, and certain goods we might have bought aren't suddenly sold out, there's not some special "not intended recipient use fee" or some council rep standing there to make sure the sale is on the up and up. They show up, they pick from the same catalogue we would have, they walk out with whatever they choose.
 
[X][EXTINCTION] Only bombard worthless rocks. You want to preserve anything you know to contain valuable resources or facilities, but there's no harm in scratching the worthless asteroids that the Rachni occupy purely to be a pain in the ass off the list.
[X][MAROON] Conventionally. Deploy the 2nd Battle Fleet to Maroon Sea. Have one of your raiding fleets pick up patrol duties in Sentry Omega. That will provide a powerful deterrent to any attempts at moving in, and if the rachni try anyway, you should be able to hold long enough to bring in reinforcements.
[X][FAVOR] Ask for something on behalf of the Terminus Alliance, which they will pick, in exchange for one vote of your choice passed without a veto in the Council.
[X][PLAN] Plan Business as usual even if they are Ardat-Yakshi.
 
[X][EXTINCTION] Only bombard worthless rocks. You want to preserve anything you know to contain valuable resources or facilities, but there's no harm in scratching the worthless asteroids that the Rachni occupy purely to be a pain in the ass off the list.
[X][MAROON] Conventionally. Deploy the 2nd Battle Fleet to Maroon Sea. Have one of your raiding fleets pick up patrol duties in Sentry Omega. That will provide a powerful deterrent to any attempts at moving in, and if the rachni try anyway, you should be able to hold long enough to bring in reinforcements.
[X][FAVOR] Ask for something on behalf of the Terminus Alliance, which they will pick, in exchange for one vote of your choice passed without a veto in the Council.
[X][PLAN] Plan Ardat-Yakshi Normalization
 
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