The Lonely Lioness - Cersei Lannister Quest

Further bribing of the Tullys is kinda besides the point. Hoster wants the situation with the Mountain resolved and Tywin needs to be stopped from going on one of his episodes (the Rayns and Tarbecks being the last recipients of those).

That is if you want to continue this plan. You can just fold and do as Tywin tells you to do. As usual for Cersei.
 
Further bribing of the Tullys is kinda besides the point. Hoster wants the situation with the Mountain resolved and Tywin needs to be stopped from going on one of his episodes (the Rayns and Tarbecks being the last recipients of those).

That is if you want to continue this plan. You can just fold and do as Tywin tells you to do. As usual for Cersei.
That helps clarify the situation, thank you.

Gregor's the issue, then. He's gotta go if we want to bring in the Riverlands, and letting Tywin do what he wants is not acceptable for a multitude of reasons. Working up a new plan, but my current idea is to bring in Joffrey and try and call Tywin's bluff. He may be willing to bulldoze over Cersei, but would he be willing to outright defy an edict from King Joffrey proclaiming Gregor Clegane an attainted brigand and ordering his capture? Combine that with us freeing Tyrion (ideally) and we might be able to prevent this war from gaining a northern front.
 
If it gets known that we regularly take Shade of the Evening, that gives Tywin, Tyrion, Joffrey or whoever else casus belli to remove our status as regent and keep us confined to our room - anytime we contradict them, they can simply say that we're not thinking clearly. In a society like this, anything we say is taken with a grain of salt simply because we're a woman. We shouldn't give people more reason to doubt our judgement. To add to the danger, there's nothing we can do to stop Pycelle from spiking the substance. We have no one qualified around us to judge if the Shade of the Evening we get is tainted or untainted.

Honestly, nothing prevents them from doing the same in the case of alcohol or milk of the poppy. They all affect the mind. Or to say that it is the grief over her dead husband that prevents her from thinking clearly. I think we just need to try to get Cersei to actually think clearly.
 
[X] Plan: Making the Gambit Work
-[X] [Nightmares] It's said that a glass of Shade of the Evening helps to sort out this kind of dream.
-[X] [Vale] Baelish offered to negotiate on your behalf. He has history with Lysa and would likely be well received.
-[X] [Riverlands] Do something else: (Write-In)
--[X] Have King Joffrey issue an edict attainting Ser Gregor Clegane as an outlaw, and ordering his leal servants to defeat and apprehend the butcher before he causes further damage to the innocent smallfolk of the Riverlands. This will be sent to all major lords in the region, Westerlander and Riverlander.

Okay, here's my revision to the plan of trying to put out this dumpster fire before dear old dad pours gasoline on it. I don't think we're ever gonna convince Tywin to back down, but if we can free Tyrion and make the whole matter with Gregor a royal concern, he'll face little sane choice but to de-escalate. I highly doubt the matter will be settled, but he's not going to invade the Riverlands bereft of a cassus belli and in an act of flagrant rebellion against his own grandson.
 
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[X] Plan: Making the Gambit Work
-[X] [Nightmares] It's said that a glass of Shade of the Evening helps to sort out this kind of dream.
-[X] [Vale] Baelish offered to negotiate on your behalf. He has history with Lysa and would likely be well received.
--[X] Cut the slimy little creep a deal; he talks Lysa into releasing our stunted little brother and/or declaring for King Joffrey, and he'll have the Iron Throne's support for whatever he plans with Sweetrobin's regency.
-[X] [Riverlands] Do something else: (Write-In)
--[X] Have King Joffrey issue an edict attainting Ser Gregor Clegane as an outlaw, and ordering his leal servants to defeat and apprehend the butcher before he causes further damage to the innocent smallfolk of the Riverlands. This will be sent to all major lords in the region, Westerlander and Riverlander.

Okay, here's my revision to the plan of trying to put out this dumpster fire before dear old dad pours gasoline on it. I don't think we're ever gonna convince Tywin to back down, but if we can free Tyrion and make the whole matter with Gregor a royal concern, he'll face little sane choice but to de-escalate. I highly doubt the matter will be settled, but he's not going to invade the Riverlands bereft of a cassus belli and in an act of flagrant rebellion against his own grandson.
My one problem with this plan is bribing Baelish with a phrasing that sounds a lot like we're writing him a blank check. This is on top of whatever way he manages to turn the situation in the Vale to his advantage and wrap Lysa around his finger.
 
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he'll be faced with a dead bannerman and orders from the queen regent. With a fait accompli in place, he'll have no choice but to pretend
As for why Tywin would go along with pretending to be enforcing the King's Peace? Sexism. If Tywin publically admits that we had one of his bannermen killed, then he's admitting that his daughter - a woman - outmaneuvered him, and that he can't control his own family. He'd be laughed at openly, and his ego would never allow that. We're offering him an out, by letting him pretend the whole thing was his idea.
[X] Plan: Making the Gambit Work
-[X] [Nightmares] It's said that a glass of Shade of the Evening helps to sort out this kind of dream.
-[X] [Vale] Baelish offered to negotiate on your behalf. He has history with Lysa and would likely be well received.
--[X] Cut the slimy little creep a deal; he talks Lysa into releasing our stunted little brother and/or declaring for King Joffrey, and he'll have the Iron Throne's support for whatever he plans with Sweetrobin's regency.
-[X] [Riverlands] Do something else: (Write-In)
--[X] Have King Joffrey issue an edict attainting Ser Gregor Clegane as an outlaw, and ordering his leal servants to defeat and apprehend the butcher before he causes further damage to the innocent smallfolk of the Riverlands. This will be sent to all major lords in the region, Westerlander and Riverlander.

Okay, here's my revision to the plan of trying to put out this dumpster fire before dear old dad pours gasoline on it. I don't think we're ever gonna convince Tywin to back down, but if we can free Tyrion and make the whole matter with Gregor a royal concern, he'll face little sane choice but to de-escalate. I highly doubt the matter will be settled, but he's not going to invade the Riverlands bereft of a cassus belli and in an act of flagrant rebellion against his own grandson.

I am 90% certain "deescalation" is nowhere in Tywin's vocabulary. A large part of me really thinks he will react to Cersei's intransigence with they way he always reacts to uppity women--extreme violence. Like the sane, reasonable thing to do with Tysha was to bribe her and the Septon who 'married' them, or even quitely kill them and dump their bodies in a pit in the middle of the night. Like there's a good chance he calls the bluff and decides Cersei is surplus to requirements/more acts of extreme violence aka The Sack v2 are exactly the thing to clear any face slighting; he doesn't actually love her and she's done her job in his eyes.

But then again, the other option is to play to canon and back down so I think dragging in the king on this has a slightly better chance of making this work. Here's hoping this Joffrey doesn't idolize the Mountain and/or Tywin too much.

[X] Plan: Making the Gambit Work
 
So far, there's been nothing happening in regards to the Arryn regency. Petyr marrying Lysa and usurping the Vale from her only happens much later in canon. There's also no real IC reason to predict any of that.

As it stands, Petyr would interpret that suggestion as an order to sideline and replace Lysa with a regent of his choosing.
 
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My one problem with this plan is bribing Baelish with a phrasing that sounds a lot like we're writing him a blank check. This is on top of whatever way he manages to turn the situation in the Vale to his advantage and wrap Lysa around his finger.
So far, there's been nothing happening in regards to the Arryn regency. Petyr marrying Lysa and usurping the Vale from her only happens much later in canon. There's also no real IC reason to predict any of that.

As it stands, Petyr would interpret that suggestion as an order to sideline and replace Lysa with a regent of his choosing.
Gotcha. I'll rub it from the plan, then. Guess we just gotta hope he comes through for us anyways, or come up with a different envoy that could work.
But then again, the other option is to play to canon and back down so I think dragging in the king on this has a slightly better chance of making this work. Here's hoping this Joffrey doesn't idolize the Mountain and/or Tywin too much.
It's pretty damn clear he doesn't respect Cersei a lick, but to publicly go against King Joffrey at the very beginning of his reign like this is an entirely other matter.
 
Hoster is still politicking? Wild!

[X] Plan: Booze, glorious booze!

For now I like this version the most, as it relies on us continuing legitimacy from King Robert's reign.

Right, this is clearly some sort of supernatural phenomenon, no amount of stress causes nightmares this vivid and consistent.

Thus, my best bet is the Shade of the Evening. It might clarify the prophetic nature of these currently vague and tormenting visions, and give Cersei a better idea of what's happening (and a glimpse of the future, perhaps).
Sorceress Cersei go!

This is unfortunate, though, if expected. My next pick for Master of Laws would be Garlan Tyrell - he's certainly suited for the job, and it's another prize to offer the Tyrells, since we're no doubt competing with Renly here.
Renly may offer Mace himself the Handship.

This is encouraging! Especially the part about her heading to KL directly, since it means they're clearly taking this at least a little seriously and not just stalling for time. The Tyrells are powerful and ambitious bed-partners, as the Lannisters discovered in canon - but having the Reach aligned with King Joffrey's dynasty is just too good a prize to turn up, especially since the 'Tully Gambit' hasn't turned out like hoped.
Yeah, but remember that they are very much ready to assassinate our boys together with Baelish. It's not as dangerous as having them marry Myrcella, but even with Tommen alone the Tyrells eventually took too prominent of the position at court in canon to Cersei's detriment.

Baelish no doubt has devious plans for further financial fuckery, though.
In canon there's an implication he's using funneled money for a debt scheme, buying out the various lords' prominent debts to the IB to get them as his yesmen, with the same Braavosi set of ships appearing in various towns as in the town of a Vale lord that had his money problems resolved by Baelish.

We need Baelish, he's the only person Lysa would possibly listen to. If we can convince him it's in his best interests, he'll not only get Tyrion freed, but potentially bring the Vale into the war on our side.
Well, Lysa is fully under his control, and in canon it was Baelish who manipulated the events to start the war early (Varys and Illyrio wished to prepare the Targaryen cause further), and, more importantly to him, to kill Ned Stark, freeing up Cat, and (almost) killing Tyrion, freeing up Sansa. With us sending Sansa back home, Baelish will be more than ever interested in getting us in conflict with the Tully-Starks, if only for a chance to get the redheads as his spoils. And even KNOWLEDGE of Baelish's obsession with Cat/Sansa is OOC info that Cersei can't act upon. HARRENHALL is his other obsession, and the one he's more ready to talk about when being asked what he wants, but getting it to him once again incentivizes him to make us hate the Tully-Starks, so there is a redrawn map of the Riverlands, and the possibility of him getting Harrenhall (IIRC he did not give it to Janos Slynt in this scenario, unlike canon).

The one hope is that Baelish treats the request for "peace with the Tullies at any cost" seriously, and plans his diplomatic trip, and everything around it, to his favor, so that it will be Hoster/Edmure giving him Harrenhall, instead of us, seeing him as "their" man in the court. Maybe if he marries Lysa early that'd be possible, but then there is Ned, who'll certainly inform everyone at Riverrun about how nasty Petyr is, so...

What I'm saying is, there is a rather slim possibility that Baelish's goals can be achieved without the Tully domain being redrawn, and the Stark family falling apart.

We should probably send a letter to the Twins 'encouraging' them to keep their gates shut. The usual bribes - court positions, betrothals, maybe even supporting them as LP of the Riverlands if we completely give up on winning over the Tullys. Just keep Robb sitting high and dry on the wrong side of the Trident.
Let's not be cross now while the Tullies are still relatively amicably talking. Walder Frey loves marriages, we can offer those to him.

That's the crux of the matter. I was honestly considering offering Cersei as a match for Edmure - he's been refusing matches arranged by Hoster, and our dear protagonist's beauty is legendary. But if we're talking with Hoster, I doubt he'd bite. So what else can we offer to sweeten the pot?
Well, we can offer positions, marriages, or lands. Lands would be coming from the redrawing of the map after defeating some houses currently in rebellion. Right now, those are houses under Renly and Stannis...

...This may sound crazy, but maybe even Cracklaw Point. The land is full of Targaryen-loyalist Riverlanders anyway, and for the Riverlands it will mean less crown control over their shipments in the Inner Sea.

Who the hell even knows what's going on here. Maybe Jaime's going after Clegane? Or maybe he's in a cell right now as a hostage. I guess we can only find out.
Most likely he's going after Tyrion. Especially if the Tyrion/Catelyn discussions happened same as in canon, and she's not so angry at the idea of potentially freeing him.

I do think trying to undermine Tywin is a complete non-starter. It just wouldn't work, it'd completely poison our relationship with real political implications, it's just a bad idea.
Well, what is HE going to do? Support Stannis and Renly and hope he's allowed to have an early retirement in peace?
Tywin is a bully, whose MO is built upon myths he spreads around his figure. There is NOTHING he can threaten us with without risking his own dream.
 
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Well, what is HE going to do? Support Stannis and Renly and hope he's allowed to have an early retirement in peace?
Tywin is a bully, whose MO is built upon myths he spreads around his figure. There is NOTHING he can threaten us with without risking his own dream.

The issue is if he decides its time to throw the baby out with the bathwater re Cersei, and that its imperative he oust her and put someone "sane" in charge ASAP. It would likely time take for him or a rep (Kevan) to make their way down, but its something he can manage. And would probably be bad if it got out.

Also wait shit I just realized something with the "getting Joffrey's name on the Mountain's Kill Order" plan. We'd be asking this of Joffrey. The dude who in light of Cersei's recent relative benign neglect paired with Daddy's death might have glomed onto the Hound as the gruff murderous father figure he can now never get from Robert. (Dude really wanted Daddy's approval and seems to have latched onto the next best thing if the stories of frequent yelling and Joffrey tolerating it--aka not crying to Cersei about it--are true). The Hound who really hates his brother. And is currently head of the KG and thus by Joffrey nearly 24/7. So who wants to put money on either:
  • The Hound immediately deciding to go on a Mountain killing team, Joffrey refusing to let him go, and the Hound deserting. Dude doesn't really care about the whole "breaking his oaths as a white brother thing" that'd hold most people back. This would be massive political egg in the face, and also give Joffrey new/additional abandonment issues on top of his already existing issues
  • Part of the Hound's screaming lessons have imparted the idea of "acceptable targets." Joffrey decides the Mountain is one--plus he can't be abandoned if he comes along right?--and says he will in his role as cool new king lead the charge himself. This would likely appeal to the part of him that wants to emulate Robert, specifically the "kill someone important and have people praise you for it," aspect.

So the plan with the Tullys was good and made sense, but failed because we failed to take into account the personal foibles and mental tripping points of those involved. Wonder if that might come into play again. I admit to keeping my vote for it since I think even if I'm right it would be fascinating and might even advance that whole "get Joffrey killed off" plot people have going on! Thought it'd be a good idea to share this brain bug regardless. I could also be totally wrong and it blows up in some other unforseen way :V
 
Interesting thought, but if Arya manages to attach herself to the Night's Watch prisoners heading north as in cannon, she might be currently travelling with Ned Stark and soon meet up with Robb in the Riverlands. It's not super likely, as the recruiter Yoren only saw her at Ned's execution, but it's certainly possible.
 
Interesting thought, but if Arya manages to attach herself to the Night's Watch prisoners heading north as in cannon, she might be currently travelling with Ned Stark and soon meet up with Robb in the Riverlands. It's not super likely, as the recruiter Yoren only saw her at Ned's execution, but it's certainly possible.
As likely as anything. She'd be keeping an eye out for Ned as well as she can and we didn't send him in secret or by ship.
 
Interesting thought, but if Arya manages to attach herself to the Night's Watch prisoners heading north as in cannon, she might be currently travelling with Ned Stark and soon meet up with Robb in the Riverlands. It's not super likely, as the recruiter Yoren only saw her at Ned's execution, but it's certainly possible.

There is no way to guess what Arya would do or if she is even alive in my opinion. In canon her journey is made up of a bunch of authorial choices to keep her both alive and as miserable as possible. Absent that incentive she could have died in Fleabottom, got on a ship to the North safe and sound with her family or anything between.
 
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Ned did arrive at Riverrun according to Hosters letters, so if Arya caught up with them, they aren't telling you.
 
The issue is if he decides its time to throw the baby out with the bathwater re Cersei, and that its imperative he oust her and put someone "sane" in charge ASAP. It would likely time take for him or a rep (Kevan) to make their way down, but its something he can manage. And would probably be bad if it got out.

Also wait shit I just realized something with the "getting Joffrey's name on the Mountain's Kill Order" plan. We'd be asking this of Joffrey. The dude who in light of Cersei's recent relative benign neglect paired with Daddy's death might have glomed onto the Hound as the gruff murderous father figure he can now never get from Robert. (Dude really wanted Daddy's approval and seems to have latched onto the next best thing if the stories of frequent yelling and Joffrey tolerating it--aka not crying to Cersei about it--are true). The Hound who really hates his brother. And is currently head of the KG and thus by Joffrey nearly 24/7. So who wants to put money on either:
  • The Hound immediately deciding to go on a Mountain killing team, Joffrey refusing to let him go, and the Hound deserting. Dude doesn't really care about the whole "breaking his oaths as a white brother thing" that'd hold most people back. This would be massive political egg in the face, and also give Joffrey new/additional abandonment issues on top of his already existing issues
  • Part of the Hound's screaming lessons have imparted the idea of "acceptable targets." Joffrey decides the Mountain is one--plus he can't be abandoned if he comes along right?--and says he will in his role as cool new king lead the charge himself. This would likely appeal to the part of him that wants to emulate Robert, specifically the "kill someone important and have people praise you for it," aspect.

I'll be honest of Joff gets himself killed trying to fight the Mountain I will cheer, we have spares.
 
[X] Plan: Making the Gambit Work
This is going to be good with the Hound practically smiling to see if he can have a hand in killing his brother.

Now for Shade of the Evening is going to be funny when our reputation is going to be as mad as the Hightower lord and his eldest daughter who are said to practice profane arts of magic at the Hightower. I'm sure Lord Hightower might be happy that a new budding sorceress in the form of the Queen Regent is consuming the substance as foul as it is. Like Euron loves that stuff and I wonder where is the man, and we might get some disgraced maesters out of this so that we won't have to listen to Pycelle's inane prattling we really need Qyburn's very unethical advice anyway.
 
There is absolutely no way this is natural. My personal best guess is that Cersei's experiencing some particularly brutal Dragon Dreams, and that Azel subscribes to the theory that she and Jaime are the children of Aerys II and Joanna Lannister, instead of Tyrion as Tywin is convinced. It'd certainly explain the incest.

I haven't heard of this theory before, but it's kind of hilarious if it turns out to be true. Robert went to all that trouble to overthrow the Targaryens, only to unknowingly put them back on the throne.
 
Adhoc vote count started by ALanos on Jan 5, 2024 at 11:18 PM, finished with 59 posts and 14 votes.

  • [X] Plan: Making the Gambit Work
    -[X] [Nightmares] It's said that a glass of Shade of the Evening helps to sort out this kind of dream.
    - [X] [Vale] Baelish offered to negotiate on your behalf. He has history with Lysa and would likely be well received.
    -[X] [Riverlands] Do something else: (Write-In)
    --[X] Have King Joffrey issue an edict attainting Ser Gregor Clegane as an outlaw, and ordering his leal servants to defeat and apprehend the butcher before he causes further damage to the innocent smallfolk of the Riverlands. This will be sent to all major lords in the region, Westerlander and Riverlander.
    [X] Plan: Booze, glorious booze!
    - [X] [Nightmares] The Arbor Gold is working. Somewhat. Better not risk the other options.
    - [X] [Vale] Baelish offered to negotiate on your behalf. He has history with Lysa and would likely be well received.
    - [X] [Riverlands] Eddard Stark's proclamation that Gregor Clegane is an enemy of the realm still stands. Write to Hoster Tully, commanding him to use any force necessary to apprehend the Mountain. Inform him that your father's host will be arriving to aid him in the criminal's apprehension. At the same time, tell Varys to spread word that any man who brings Gregor Clegane's head to King's Landing or Riverrun gets a 100 dragons and a knighthood (or a lordship if they're already a knight), with lower but still substantial prizes for whoever aids him. If no one's taking the offer, hire assassins directly. The Mountain delenda est - everything hinges upon it.
    [X] [Nightmares] It's said that a glass of Shade of the Evening helps to sort out this kind of dream.


The tally is being weird because the previous version is still the one voted in. I just edited it.
 
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