Mackie wasn't a Maus after all: Nukashuba strikes back
- Thread starter tomwritestuff
- Start date
- Sci-Fi
TheOmnimercurial
Dragon Bard
- Location
- UK
My only issue with Quads is they lack Arms and Hands.
So for a Hit & Run Mech we really should be going Biped or Tripod.
Biped has about a 1.5ton free weight to play with.
But Tripod has 360° Rotation and better stability than a Biped.
I still think Partial Wing is worth trying, as we could potentially manage Clan Partial Wing given our Naval Heatsink Tech etc.
IS-DHS seem the most worthwhile to get though, a boost but that lets us keep advantage with our Naval DHS.
So for a Hit & Run Mech we really should be going Biped or Tripod.
Biped has about a 1.5ton free weight to play with.
But Tripod has 360° Rotation and better stability than a Biped.
I still think Partial Wing is worth trying, as we could potentially manage Clan Partial Wing given our Naval Heatsink Tech etc.
IS-DHS seem the most worthwhile to get though, a boost but that lets us keep advantage with our Naval DHS.
- Location
- US
I like the concept of the Guerilla, but I also kind of like the Partial Wing idea @TheOmnimercurial brings up, so I feel compelled to combine the two.
[X] [Engineering] Flying Monkey FMK-01 (40-ton biped)
240 SFE
MP 6/9/6
6.5 tons armor
Large Laser CT (5 tons)
Med Laser RA (1 ton)
Med Laser LA (1 ton)
Partial Wing LT/RT (3 tons)
2 Jumpjets RL (1 ton)
2 Jumpjets LL (1 ton)
Heat Sink HD (0 tons)
Somewhat more lightly armored than the Guerilla, but better at shooting and jumping without overheating, in theory. Also, lets us test out the Partial Wing concept, plus the winged raider is just a cool aesthetic.
If people aren't interested in that, I'm willing to go for
[] [Engineering] Guerilla G-11A
or
[] [Engineering] Ruffian RFN-02 (60-ton Bipedal Mech)
[X] [Travel] Travel with plans and/or prototype to Nudezret.
Because Jess is a veteran pilot with firsthand experience fighting the Ghosts, and the local resistance fighters could probably use her expertise. Also, her long term goal is to find out what happened to Delta, and she's more likely to find clues on the planet where he went missing.
[X] [Engineering] Flying Monkey FMK-01 (40-ton biped)
240 SFE
MP 6/9/6
6.5 tons armor
Large Laser CT (5 tons)
Med Laser RA (1 ton)
Med Laser LA (1 ton)
Partial Wing LT/RT (3 tons)
2 Jumpjets RL (1 ton)
2 Jumpjets LL (1 ton)
Heat Sink HD (0 tons)
Somewhat more lightly armored than the Guerilla, but better at shooting and jumping without overheating, in theory. Also, lets us test out the Partial Wing concept, plus the winged raider is just a cool aesthetic.
If people aren't interested in that, I'm willing to go for
[] [Engineering] Guerilla G-11A
or
[] [Engineering] Ruffian RFN-02 (60-ton Bipedal Mech)
[X] [Travel] Travel with plans and/or prototype to Nudezret.
Because Jess is a veteran pilot with firsthand experience fighting the Ghosts, and the local resistance fighters could probably use her expertise. Also, her long term goal is to find out what happened to Delta, and she's more likely to find clues on the planet where he went missing.
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- Pronouns
- He/Him
[X] [Engineering] Flying Monkey FMK-01
40 ton 6/9/6 biped that can be built wholely on-planet? Go for it
40 ton 6/9/6 biped that can be built wholely on-planet? Go for it
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..oh. If we could do approval voting, I'll go ahead and add in the Ruffian (again). 
; Though the majority (atm) on the Travel Vote is seems to just stay at Nukashuba.
; Though the majority (atm) on the Travel Vote is seems to just stay at Nukashuba.
- Location
- Across the universe
You can...oh. If we could do approval voting, I'll go ahead and add in the Ruffian (again).
- Location
- US
Since the Monkey has gotten a little support, I'm going to withdraw my other votes for now on the off chance it can pull ahead.
PLAN FLYING MONKEY
- Location
- Across the universe
Flying Monkey reference description:
- 240 SFE
- MP 6/9/6
- 6.5 tons armor
- Large Laser CT (5 tons)
- Med Laser RA (1 ton)
- Med Laser LA (1 ton)
- Partial Wing LT/RT (3 tons)
- 2 Jumpjets RL (1 ton)
- 2 Jumpjets LL (1 ton)
- Heat Sink HD (0 tons)
- Design: Cooling System Flaws (-3)
- Design: Protected Actuators (+1), Exposed Weapon Linkage: Medium Lasers (-2) (paired)
- Implementation: Poor Targeting, Short
- Wing, Linked: EM Interference (-1)
Prototype bonus: +1 to Engineering Checks except for checks related to removing Poor Targeting, Short.
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I'll assume it'll be a die roll between Guerilla, Flying Monkey and Ruffian I guess? 
QUICK EDIT: Ruffian rather!
QUICK EDIT: Ruffian rather!
TheOmnimercurial
Dragon Bard
- Location
- UK
[X] [Engineering] Flying Monkey FMK-01
might be a bit late, but only just got back on SV, been very unwell.
might be a bit late, but only just got back on SV, been very unwell.
And that's probably tiebreaker then!
..how do partial wings work and can the AI make use of it properly?
EDIT: ..huh, neat thingy from Clan Jade Falcon. That's interesting. I probably should check what other Clan-tech stuff there are that we can nab but Partial Wing seems fun even if we're simply doing it for the increased heat dissipation.
..that normal/standard atmosphere is specific though, hm.
..how do partial wings work and can the AI make use of it properly?
EDIT: ..huh, neat thingy from Clan Jade Falcon. That's interesting. I probably should check what other Clan-tech stuff there are that we can nab but Partial Wing seems fun even if we're simply doing it for the increased heat dissipation.
..that normal/standard atmosphere is specific though, hm.
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Yea. Partial wings. Those things that have never shown up on a tech vote, and are thus quite far out of left field.
Well, if it works, it works. I guess.
I was assuming that we'd need to take a logical progression to more advanced versions of things after our sort of kick-started tech start, but who knows, maybe we can get a breakthrough with some novel designs.
We can't exactly pick and choose the best things out of clantech. We need to reverse-engineer or at least get some kind of inspiration. Or repeated attempts at failing things: See- the quest for the Clantech ERPPC, still ongoing, and has been going since the Heavy PPC got installed on something. We've had multiple melting prototype sort-of-snub nose ppcs that never went anywhere.
Well, if it works, it works. I guess.
I was assuming that we'd need to take a logical progression to more advanced versions of things after our sort of kick-started tech start, but who knows, maybe we can get a breakthrough with some novel designs.
We can't exactly pick and choose the best things out of clantech. We need to reverse-engineer or at least get some kind of inspiration. Or repeated attempts at failing things: See- the quest for the Clantech ERPPC, still ongoing, and has been going since the Heavy PPC got installed on something. We've had multiple melting prototype sort-of-snub nose ppcs that never went anywhere.
Clan-tech ER PPC will need to first yeet an ER PPC design first before tweaking it into the Enchanced ER PPC. Snubs would be nice yeah but another reason for getting ER PPC is to also have an alternative to the Heavy PPC .
..ah, well, let's see if Partial Wing comes into being or something funny happens.
Another low hanging fruit we could do is weight savings for Missiles but I don't think we will ever get to it due to going down the PPC path. @_@;
..ah, well, let's see if Partial Wing comes into being or something funny happens.
Another low hanging fruit we could do is weight savings for Missiles but I don't think we will ever get to it due to going down the PPC path. @_@;
..oh. Oh sh-t. Right, Partial Wings isn't really 'IntroTech' so if Flying Monkey goes through the primarily thing we're likely be supplying to the rest are the Partial Wings. And if we can't get it to the rest.of.Palporis, it just defaults back to being the Guerilla.with more armor and 6 JJs...
..huh.
..huh.
In standard atmosphere, the Partial Wing adds +2 Jump MP (for Light and Medium) or +1 Jump MP (for Heavy and Assault), and an additional 3 heat dissipated per turn.
The weight of the system (Clan Techbase) is 5% of the 'Mech's weight (7% for Inner Sphere, 20% for ProtoMechs) and rounded up to the nearest 0.5 ton. It occupies three critical spaces in each side torso for BattleMechs, and one weapon slot in the torso for ProtoMechs.
In this case, 2 JJs and 3 Heat Sinks. Though in the case of the Flying Monkey, with copying the Guerilla, it took that away by removing two JJs (1 ton total) and 2 tons of armor from the Guerilla. @_@; Whilst the increased heat dissipation is nice, taking away two tons of armor means that the Flying Monkey will most likely be relying on not getting hit at all. Hell, with that being the case, removing one more ton of armor for maxing out JJs to Six would be relying on Jumping around the battlefield as long as the latter is in a 'standard atmosphere' as that would mean this would-be Mech would be jumping around (and hoping the AI does so rather than simply walking/running). Though that would mean switching the Medium Lasers to the side torsos rather than the arms due to low armor on the latter.
..ugh, I don't like it though with how low its armor tonnage is. One potential thing we can do is removing said two Medium Lasers to up the armor of the Flying Monkey by one ton and adding the maximum JJs. Or just straight up adding two tons of armor really. Bringing it to 8.5 armor.
..though with only a large laser as a weapon, they sort-of remind me of the Hussar.. >_>;
Ah, didn't realize it added heat dissipation, that is at least an improvement.
7.5 tons of armor still means you can comfortably have at least 10 armor in every front location, and 14-17 armor in the torsos or legs. That's enough to stand up to multiple PPC or LL shots without disintegrating entirely. Sure, getting crit from repeated hits to the same point, but this is also a 40-tonner. We can't armor everything super hard.
6.5 tons is still 10 points in every front location, if you twiddle a bit with the exact numbers, which is also decent, if a little more vulnerable.
If people still want more weapons and are obsessed with alpha striking, then there's also the option of trading for small lasers instead of mediums. For just a bit less heat generation. And to make people less tempted to mash every button at the same time.
6.5 tons is still 10 points in every front location, if you twiddle a bit with the exact numbers, which is also decent, if a little more vulnerable.
If people still want more weapons and are obsessed with alpha striking, then there's also the option of trading for small lasers instead of mediums. For just a bit less heat generation. And to make people less tempted to mash every button at the same time.
Less.on Alpha Striking really and more wanting weapons over a sole weapon but that's just me I guess wanting weapon redundancy.
Could always fit in 10 Armor to arms but that means eating away most likely from rear armor or leg armor.
..hm, guess we should wait for the update first, but let's see if Partial Wing comes into being or not.
- Location
- US
Sorry I'm posting a few days after the conversation died down. I was traveling at the time and when I got back, people seemed to be done talking. However, I just realized that there are some details of the engineering plan that I took as given that I should probably explicitly state for the record, and while I'm at it, I should give my own thought on the partial wing.
Firstly, my intention was always that it would follow the same general plan as stated in the other engineering plans. That is, it would have moderate design tolerances, we'd spend the RP for a prototype, send over engines if needed, give it hands for grabbing, etc. I figured that would be obvious when I described it as "the Guerilla but with partial wing", but I figure it doesn't hurt to clearly state that unambiguously.
As for concerns about the partial wing, yes it is a new tech. It is, indeed, a clan tech, but as far as I can tell there is nothing about it that specifically requires clan technology. It is, at bottom, a set of giant glider wings on a robot. It doesn't require an exotic power source or cutting edge electronics, just a solid understanding of aeronautics and heat transfer. Technologically, I see no reason we couldn't develop it, it's just that no-one's been crazy enough to try it (as a side note, I'd point out the the USNN somehow figured out modular weapons pods themselves without outside inspiration, so there is definitely precedent).
That's a big thing I like about it. It's a weird little design that we normally wouldn't go for but actually kind works in this specific situation. If we could rely on our normal tech base, there are much more efficient options. But now, we stuck using lower level tech against a more powerful opponent, trying to find anything that will squeeze out a little more performance and give us an edge. Partial wing is exactly the sort of thing someone who isn't too focused on how mechs are "supposed" to work (like perhaps Ellie) might propose to get around current design limitations.
As for the challenges of designing and producing a new tech, yes there will be some for both us and the clients, but I don't think it will be too bad, and most of the heavy lifting will be on our end. As I said before, we should already have the necessary technology to do this, it's just a matter figuring out how to make it work on a 'mech. Once we have a working prototype, helping the customer build it should be relatively simple. If they already know how to build airplane wings (which seems a reasonable expectation) it should just be a matter of "construct wings according to these specs, mount on mech as shown in diagram". They'll need to build facilities to produce them, but they're going to need new facilities anyway to build the chassis. I always assumed the two would go hand in hand. There is unavoidably going to be a learning curve (part or the reason I wanted to have Jess travel to Nudezret was so she could provide training in person), but that's going to apply to ComStar as well. Aside from the shock of going up against a new brand of mech - one with design they've never seen anything like - when they scan these things and see they have only four jump jets and no extra heat sinks, they are going to make some very incorrect assumptions about their capabilities.
People have already talked about how the wings reduce capacity for armor and weapons, which I knew was going to be a trade-off going in, and some possible work arounds have been brought up. I've considered the idea of trading out the large laser more a pair of mediums, more armor, and maybe a flamer, though I don't know if the loss of range would be at all worth it. Regardless, the design is intended to have moderate flexibility, so if the clients decide they want to change the load out, more power to them.
tl;dr The partial wing is a new, weird and challenging piece of innovation, but not that new, weird and challenging. I think the 'mech is reasonably feasible, and is a unique design that probably wouldn't be built in any other circumstance than the one we are in, and I think that's cool. Maybe it will work as well as I hope, maybe it won't, but either way it should be an interesting part of Papolris military design history. I'm excited to see what comes of it.
Firstly, my intention was always that it would follow the same general plan as stated in the other engineering plans. That is, it would have moderate design tolerances, we'd spend the RP for a prototype, send over engines if needed, give it hands for grabbing, etc. I figured that would be obvious when I described it as "the Guerilla but with partial wing", but I figure it doesn't hurt to clearly state that unambiguously.
As for concerns about the partial wing, yes it is a new tech. It is, indeed, a clan tech, but as far as I can tell there is nothing about it that specifically requires clan technology. It is, at bottom, a set of giant glider wings on a robot. It doesn't require an exotic power source or cutting edge electronics, just a solid understanding of aeronautics and heat transfer. Technologically, I see no reason we couldn't develop it, it's just that no-one's been crazy enough to try it (as a side note, I'd point out the the USNN somehow figured out modular weapons pods themselves without outside inspiration, so there is definitely precedent).
That's a big thing I like about it. It's a weird little design that we normally wouldn't go for but actually kind works in this specific situation. If we could rely on our normal tech base, there are much more efficient options. But now, we stuck using lower level tech against a more powerful opponent, trying to find anything that will squeeze out a little more performance and give us an edge. Partial wing is exactly the sort of thing someone who isn't too focused on how mechs are "supposed" to work (like perhaps Ellie) might propose to get around current design limitations.
As for the challenges of designing and producing a new tech, yes there will be some for both us and the clients, but I don't think it will be too bad, and most of the heavy lifting will be on our end. As I said before, we should already have the necessary technology to do this, it's just a matter figuring out how to make it work on a 'mech. Once we have a working prototype, helping the customer build it should be relatively simple. If they already know how to build airplane wings (which seems a reasonable expectation) it should just be a matter of "construct wings according to these specs, mount on mech as shown in diagram". They'll need to build facilities to produce them, but they're going to need new facilities anyway to build the chassis. I always assumed the two would go hand in hand. There is unavoidably going to be a learning curve (part or the reason I wanted to have Jess travel to Nudezret was so she could provide training in person), but that's going to apply to ComStar as well. Aside from the shock of going up against a new brand of mech - one with design they've never seen anything like - when they scan these things and see they have only four jump jets and no extra heat sinks, they are going to make some very incorrect assumptions about their capabilities.
People have already talked about how the wings reduce capacity for armor and weapons, which I knew was going to be a trade-off going in, and some possible work arounds have been brought up. I've considered the idea of trading out the large laser more a pair of mediums, more armor, and maybe a flamer, though I don't know if the loss of range would be at all worth it. Regardless, the design is intended to have moderate flexibility, so if the clients decide they want to change the load out, more power to them.
tl;dr The partial wing is a new, weird and challenging piece of innovation, but not that new, weird and challenging. I think the 'mech is reasonably feasible, and is a unique design that probably wouldn't be built in any other circumstance than the one we are in, and I think that's cool. Maybe it will work as well as I hope, maybe it won't, but either way it should be an interesting part of Papolris military design history. I'm excited to see what comes of it.
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If the wing was for Nukashuban production, I'd be a lot more favorable to it. Nukashuba is sophisticated and we definitely are allowed to hack up new techs like that.
But we're going to make a design and then tell the absolute least sophisticated and capable production sites in the system to execute on it. For them I worry a lot about the successful implementation.
Also the Flying Monkey fails to exploit the partial wing's key utility of making it possible to fly farther than you can walk since it needed to go short on JJs, right?
Though the cooling effect is a lot more useful for people with SHS, so it has that going for it.
But we're going to make a design and then tell the absolute least sophisticated and capable production sites in the system to execute on it. For them I worry a lot about the successful implementation.
Also the Flying Monkey fails to exploit the partial wing's key utility of making it possible to fly farther than you can walk since it needed to go short on JJs, right?
Though the cooling effect is a lot more useful for people with SHS, so it has that going for it.
I don't see the point in designing a mech to build on Hefusts. What would we gain by that compared to building a mech on Nukashuba?
If we'd gone with an ASF having it be for Hefusts might have made sense, they're good at that. (And we haven't found out what the organizational status of Nukashuban space forces is these days. That was a big issue before the Ghost Invasion.)