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Son of Death (30k Mortarion Quest)

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Imrix said:
Look, I'm sorry, but this whole ultimatum idea is crap. 'Uproot your entire society on my say-so because I object to it morally or I'll invade you" isn't an offer anybody would accept, which means it's not a peace offer, it's just the empty grandstanding of someone who wants the moral high ground of being 'reasonable' and 'restrained' even as they shoot first and compromise never. It's the, "we've tried nothing and we're all out of ideas," of manufacturing consent. It stinks. Don't offer somebody a deal you know they won't accept just so you can feel better about shooting them in the face for saying no, that shit is wretched.
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I don't know about anyone else, but I'm only voting for it to build Mortarion's potential reputation as a 'surrender or die' Primarch rather than a 'just die' Primarch. Everyone knows they're gonna refuse and get massacred, but in the long run it looks good for the newspapers and doesn't meaningfully slow down our conquest rate - it's Morty's first step into the arena of public relations, and it's important to start practicing to be photogenic as early as possible if we want people to listen to us when we're not actively glaring at them!*

*A lesson that Curze, for instance, pointedly failed to learn.

EDIT: Also, a was later pointed out in the thread, this is literally our legion's SOP.
 
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01paradox01 said:
We would not be having this conversation because the situation would be different, yes. Physical abuse is quite different to drug abuse.
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Wrong. It's not substantively different. Hell, one could argue exposing someone to addictive substances that destroy your body and mind *is* physical abuse.

Modus_Tollens said:
The more telling thing is that people are kept running via narcotics to the breaking point, burning themselves out and soldiering on until they are mental and physical husks of what they could have been. And then, when they are slightly more of a burden to the system than their labor is worth, they are issued a simple little euthanasia pill in the mail.
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Fair point. I'd completely forgotten about the suicide pills.

Somehow.
 
HalfTangible said:
Wrong. It's not substantively different. Hell, one could argue exposing someone to addictive substances that destroy your body and mind *is* physical abuse.
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I think that's being nitpicky about definitions, which I consider a waste of my time. Unless you have something more relevant to say I think I'm ready to let this conversation die. Agree to disagree on whatever we were arguing about.
 
[X] War
- [X] Of Conquest. Galaspar has refused all possibility of peaceful unification, and so they will be brought into the fold by force.
- [X] Open with an ultimatum: if they end their system and work with the Imperium to reverse the damage it has caused, then they may enter its ranks peacefully. If they refuse, you will force them to do so.
- [X] Have scientists immediately, before the ultimatum is even given, researching what can be done to help the people, whether there's a way to slowly wean them from the drugs or find a replacement. Just as with the soil of your home, there must be a solution even if it is not perfect.


[X] War
- [X] Of Liberation. You object to how the Order treats its subjects, and you have the might and self-proclaimed right to intervene on their behalf.
- [X] Open with an ultimatum: if they end their system and work with the Imperium to reverse the damage it has caused, then they may enter its ranks peacefully. If they refuse, you will force them to do so.
- [X] Have scientists immediately, before the ultimatum is even given, researching what can be done to help the people, whether there's a way to slowly wean them from the drugs or find a replacement. Just as with the soil of your home, there must be a solution even if it is not perfect.
 
[X] War
- [X] Of Liberation. You object to how the Order treats its subjects, and you have the might and self-proclaimed right to intervene on their behalf.
 
[X] War
- [X] Of Liberation. You object to how the Order treats its subjects, and you have the might and self-proclaimed right to intervene on their behalf.
- [X] Open with an ultimatum: if they end their system and work with the Imperium to reverse the damage it has caused, then they may enter its ranks peacefully. If they refuse, you will force them to do so.
- [X] Have scientists immediately, before the ultimatum is even given, researching what can be done to help the people, whether there's a way to slowly wean them from the drugs or find a replacement. Just as with the soil of your home, there must be a solution even if it is not perfect.
 
Imrix said:
Look, I'm sorry, but this whole ultimatum idea is crap. 'Uproot your entire society on my say-so because I object to it morally or I'll invade you" isn't an offer anybody would accept, which means it's not a peace offer, it's just the empty grandstanding of someone who wants the moral high ground of being 'reasonable' and 'restrained' even as they shoot first and compromise never. It's the, "we've tried nothing and we're all out of ideas," of manufacturing consent. It stinks. Don't offer somebody a deal you know they won't accept just so you can feel better about shooting them in the face for saying no, that shit is wretched.
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Im sorry but thats not it, even if you know the enemy won't accept giving the ultimatum is still the superior option for a couple of reasons:
-Firstly, you could be wrong, even if it seems impossible the people in charge might very well accept should they get decent terms and a bloody war might be avoided.
-Secondly, even if they don't surrender it still forms a basis for later diplomacy/surrender.
Its a lot easier to surrender if you know what your enemy actually wants and aren't just invaded out of the blue.
-Thirdly, there's plenty of room for compromise, id say its a pretty big difference whether the apparatchiks in charge are all killed or get to live out the rest of their lives in politically powerless comfort.
-And finally, its just good practice to establish certain rules for yourself, and making at least a token attempt at bloodless victory seems like good one to me.
 
It should also be noted that the Order of Galaspar has an extremely tight grip on their system, but it's not clear yet that they have such a tight grip internally. And even if it does; even though they have safe passage through the warp planetary councils or governors have to have some level of autonomy. The ultimatum could cause a schism in it's leadership and allow planets an avenue to abandon a sinking ship. That might allow preservation of internal structures, allow for a better understanding of medical follow up to prepare for the main push at the main planet, etc.

Gotta talk to your crop for the best results. And people too I guess.
 
As for giving the ultimatum before attacking. That's the whole Dusk Raiders thing. We give them a diplomatic option a try even if its only a token effort during the day; then if that doesn't work we attack at dusk. It also explicitly outlines our casus belli, why we are doing this, to both our enemies and allies.
 
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What's the practical difference between the three options? Just the attitude going into it? One of them is waging war to free the people, ones waging war for defying the Imperium and ones for waging war because you hate the society for enslaving its people?

I getting that right or am I missing something?
 
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[X] War
- [X] Of Liberation. You object to how the Order treats its subjects, and you have the might and self-proclaimed right to intervene on their behalf.
 
Chipsy_21 said:
Im sorry but thats not it, even if you know the enemy won't accept giving the ultimatum is still the superior option for a couple of reasons:
-Firstly, you could be wrong, even if it seems impossible the people in charge might very well accept should they get decent terms and a bloody war might be avoided.
-Secondly, even if they don't surrender it still forms a basis for later diplomacy/surrender.
Its a lot easier to surrender if you know what your enemy actually wants and aren't just invaded out of the blue.
-Thirdly, there's plenty of room for compromise, id say its a pretty big difference whether the apparatchiks in charge are all killed or get to live out the rest of their lives in politically powerless comfort.
-And finally, its just good practice to establish certain rules for yourself, and making at least a token attempt at bloodless victory seems like good one to me.
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Maybe in the abstract, but in the practical, specific context of this war, I'm sorry but this is a load of crap. The Order isn't going to surrender at the outset; we know this, because they fought in canon and only (tried to) sued for peace after they were defeated militarily. The apparitchiks in charge aren't going to compromise, because what they're being asked to compromise with is the total dissolution of the system they have complete control over. So this isn't 'a token attempt at bloodless victory', it's just empty grandstanding.
 
The mere thought of them joining the Imperium almost resulted in violence. The 'choice' of completely disassembling their society and joining the Imperium or getting seven shades of shit kicked out of them and being forced into the Imperium is no choice at all. I understand that a lot of people are choosing this in the hopes of making Morty slightly more amenable to future targets and/or that it aligns with the Dusk Raider's old philosophy of talk during the day and fight at night but I think that's already covered just by the dint of this operation being dressed up as a liberation.
 
[X] War
- [X] Of Liberation. You object to how the Order treats its subjects, and you have the might and self-proclaimed right to intervene on their behalf.
 
[X] War
- [X] Of Liberation. You object to how the Order treats its subjects, and you have the might and self-proclaimed right to intervene on their behalf.
 
Imrix said:
Maybe in the abstract, but in the practical, specific context of this war, I'm sorry but this is a load of crap. The Order isn't going to surrender at the outset; we know this, because they fought in canon and only (tried to) sued for peace after they were defeated militarily. The apparitchiks in charge aren't going to compromise, because what they're being asked to compromise with is the total dissolution of the system they have complete control over. So this isn't 'a token attempt at bloodless victory', it's just empty grandstanding.
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Its more likely that chunks of the order will surrender once we've succeeded at an initial decapitation. One outlier world, one hive city, whatever... at least once they are noticing that their command structure isn't answering their calls and they are looking down the barrel of a gun. You are correct there. But making surrender easier, leaving that escape hatch present and decorated with more fluorescent lights than the Vegas Strip, isn't a bad idea either.

Unlike with canon Mortarion, we want people to surrender early and often and the last thing we want is for someone to think that they are backed into a corner. Its an tenet from goddamn Sun Tzu, to be taken literally or figuratively: 'When you surround an army, leave an outlet free. Do not press a desperate foe too hard'.

Agree to work for us and be prepared to institute a few policy changes and we can stop fighting any time you like. You can even keep your offices. If we can get them to start suddenly deciding to start raising the white flag earlier than they otherwise would have it will be worthwhile. One day's difference could mean hundreds of millions of lives.
 
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[X] War
- [X] Of Liberation. You object to how the Order treats its subjects, and you have the might and self-proclaimed right to intervene on their behalf.
 
Wade Garrett said:
I'm voting to wipe it out root and branch for what I admit are purely OOC reasons, namely that AU Malcador is lurking somewhere in the shadows and no incarnation of the Sigilite needs to get their grubby paws anywhere near "Mind Control Drugs Total Control Bureaucracy Cult."
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And here I thought it was just because these are the bastards from Mortarion's novel who he gets griped at for using chemical weapons against to free the people.
Renu said:
I can't remember, but isn't Morty still kind of a darwinist asshole in this quest? Wouldn't he just go "ragh! if they die of withdrawal, it's because they just suck!"?
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That's later on in the crusade after decades/centuries in the trenches.
 
Modus_Tollens said:
Its more likely that chunks of the order will surrender once we've succeeded at an initial decapitation. One outlier world, one hive city, whatever... at least once they are noticing that their command structure isn't answering their calls and they are looking down the barrel of a gun. You are correct there. But making surrender easier, leaving that escape hatch present and decorated with more fluorescent lights than the Vegas Strip, isn't a bad idea either.

Unlike with canon Mortarion, we want people to surrender early and often and the last thing we want is for someone to think that they are backed into a corner. Its an tenet from goddamn Sun Tzu, to be taken literally or figuratively: 'When you surround an army, leave an outlet free. Do not press a desperate foe too hard'.

Work for us and be prepared to institute a few policy changes and we can stop fighting any time you like. If we can get them to start suddenly deciding to start raising the white flag earlier than they otherwise would have it will be worthwhile. One day's difference could mean hundreds of millions of lives.
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Right, but demanding unconditional surrender at the outset isn't gonna do any of that. That doesn't encourage people to surrender if they weren't already going to give up after taking a hammering, it's just empty grandstanding, like I keep saying.

Like, do you think the Galasparians are going to just Not Try to surrender if we don't demand it at the start? Are they going to, what, not realise that's an option if we don't tell them ourselves? They're chemically pacified, they're not braindead.
 
Imrix said:
Right, but demanding unconditional surrender at the outset isn't gonna do any of that. That doesn't encourage people to surrender if they weren't already going to give up after taking a hammering, it's just empty grandstanding, like I keep saying.

Like, do you think the Galasparians are going to just Not Try to surrender if we don't demand it at the start? Are they going to, what, not realise that's an option if we don't tell them ourselves? They're chemically pacified, they're not braindead.
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We're not actually asking for an unconditional surrender though. We're asking for surrender with some comparatively reasonable conditions: 'If they end their system and work with the Imperium to reverse the damage it has caused, then they may enter its ranks peacefully. If they refuse, you will force them to do so.' Same terms either way but the amount of dakka applied first, as much or as little, is entirely up to them.

And they might not realize that surrender is a way out, not really, not for them. Sure, they could stop fighting. But it would be expected and even be reasonably by some eyes for us to still purge the upper ranks, dissolve their government, and then install our own either in the form of a viceroy or some Quisling state if they give even token resistance. The guys holding lasguns might survive under new management but the old management wouldn't.

That is a very different thing from being left exactly where you are and having a photocopy of your new office policies slapped on your desk by a very large transhuman juggernaut who you do not want to be disappointed.
 
Modus_Tollens said:
We're not actually asking for an unconditional surrender though. We're asking for surrender with some comparatively reasonable conditions: 'If they end their system and work with the Imperium to reverse the damage it has caused, then they may enter its ranks peacefully. If they refuse, you will force them to do so.'
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"Uproot the entire shape of your society, and which you personally benefit enormously from and are commensurately invested in as the people on top of the system, because it offends me morally, or I shall invade you," is in no way at all 'some reasonable conditions'. The difference between that and asking for an unconditional surrender is, to the person receiving the demand, functionally nil.
Modus_Tollens said:
And they might not realize that surrender is a way out, not really, not for them. Sure, they could stop fighting. But it would be expected and even be reasonably by some eyes for us to still purge the upper ranks, dissolve their government, and then install our own either in the form of a viceroy or some Quisling state if they give even token resistance. The guys holding lasguns might survive under new management but the old management wouldn't.
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I flatly disagree. Again: They're chemically pacified, they're not braindead. There will be people, even quite highly placed people, who will try it because they figure they can retire peacefully, or vanish in the chaos of restructuring, or throw scapegoats under the bus, or because they honestly think they're blameless, or whatever. "Try to surrender" is not some weird out-of-the-box idea that middle management will never think of themselves, and it is bluntly bizarre to me that you think they're that stupid.
 
Modus_Tollens said:
We're not actually asking for an unconditional surrender though. We're asking for surrender with some comparatively reasonable conditions: 'If they end their system and work with the Imperium to reverse the damage it has caused, then they may enter its ranks peacefully. If they refuse, you will force them to do so.' Same terms either way but the amount of dakka applied first, as much or as little, is entirely up to them.
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'Reasonable conditions.'

Asking an interplanetary nation to completely rework their society and culture from the ground up under the threat of violence is anything but reasonable. Your destroying their way of life either way, the real question your asking is whether they'll roll over for it or not. Asking them on the onset of an invasion, justified as their current society being intolerable enough that the Imperium needs to interfere, to surrender is basically just supervillain victim blaming. I'm not saying there's anything really good about about they run things, it's pretty horrible all the way down, but telling someone 'It's your own fault I'm invading you' is all this ultimatum is.
 
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The Laurent said:
Think he's going to do a boiling thing where the targets gradually get marginally less fucked just to see where his limit is?

(I think that's maybe too cynical, but it would be funny if he was scoring it to know exactly the ethical line Morty will consider too far.)
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That, or he knows not to send Morty at targets that aren't despotic nightmares.

Morty's morals don't really matter if he's never even made aware of the times Emps is conquering the Space Shire or Fully Automated Luxury Gay l Space Communes.
 
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