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A Simple Transaction I

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Rihaku said:
Ahem.

"And yet. Why was the Genius smirking still? That smug insufferable smile was not the triumphant cackling of one who had successfully maneuvered foe and tyrant both into mutual annihilation and could now preside unimpeded, grievously wounded or not, over the remains..."
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Damn you got me.

I expected some Hunger directed smugness as well though!

To be fair I suppose there isn't really time for that until we finish up with the Maiden.
 
Also, for context. I've been sitting on this one for awhile. Once upon a time, when Hunger freed the Azure Ring from the Temple of the False Moon, we had a couple choices to make. His approach towards achieving its vengeance, and his disposition towards it thereafter.

By parallel to the then-unknown history of the Forebear, in retrospect it was a fairly clear opportunity for us to choose Hunger's views on the eventual fate of the Hidden Ones, and his own retirement thereafter. And we chose the following:
[ ] The Blade - Let this business be done with. Quickly, cleanly. Complete the objective and go; dwell not on the past which is beyond your power (yet) to change, but cut onwards and through into the future. Sever the Ring from its tormenter, its tormentor from his life, and the profits of that torture from the society he upheld.

This reckless hate is beneath your dignity, Azure. You are a Ring of Power, not some mewling simpleton of mortal span. Eternity lies before you; why dwell on enemies already buried? 'Slays Keeper, ruins town, and beats high temple down.' Let him be one hero more whom time has felled; let that be enough.
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[ ] Ruler & Vassal - Rescue for leal service, that was the bargain and he shall see it fairly enforced. Freed of its unnatural vise the Ring Azure will be entirely capable of exerting its energies to a typical degree without undue suffering. A Ring's psychology is not a man's; the agony inflicted by Plerion's vise dealt not true lasting damage to Band or Jewel. Let it do as it promised and offer the full complement of powers in commission for freedom from harm.
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Neither provide perfect orientation, of course. But it should be made clear, that though he views both vengeance and gratitude as absolutely necessary, in either case these are in the context of damnation to eternal struggle.

Hunger's view of the Forebear is one of unflinching approval, but his opinion of the Procession of Worlds and all it entails are anything but. Even despite the power reincarnation offered, and the sheer legacy it enabled him, his concerns thereabout lie solely in preserving what shreds of self-respect he might along the way.

So, if Hunger has an unweighted choice between spending his remaining eons of Indenture under the Apocryphal Curse or not, I'm just not convinced he'd assume it worthwhile. Is ending the Doom of the Tyrant a greater good than liberating worlds beyond number from the cruel yoke of infinitely incrementing evils? Perhaps, but in a manner only visible from this side of the fourth wall. Is the execution of the Hidden Ones a greater obligation than escaping their cycle? Certainly, but only if you haven't already done so.

For me, what I see here are two questions. Firstly, Hunger is being asked if being the Forebear was a good thing. And frankly? No, I don't believe it was. But having once been the Forebear has been the greatest blessing Hunger could ever have hoped for. It bought him the attention of the Accursed. It earned him the second chance he had not even the will remaining to ask for.

The second is, can he tell the difference?
 
It feels like the Forebear's getting undeserved flak! For a being whose life consisted of wading ever-deeper into hell, he retained an impressive amount of compassion. Though his wars were endless, where possible his victories were merciful. With absolute power comes the latitude for absolute benevolence. For a glimpse of what the Forebear did when things went well, you can check out A Winter Dynasty.
 
ImperatorV said:
If Vengeance wins I want to roll a d100 and, on anything other then a 100, say "whelp Hunger died the sacrifice was pointless".

The final battle of the quest is also the oldest one in this quest: Not Dying Gang vs Dying Gang. We're keeping up with our track record I see. So few actually care about Hunger's life when the nebulous distant chance of a minor victory in the Accursed's war is dangled in front of them.
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I think it's very much less about, and I can only speak for myself, not caring about Hungers life, and more about consistency with his character. If we were to inspect our odds of reaching 'vengeance', of becoming a high cursebearer at the inception of this quest, it would be vastly inferior to our current position. Yet even then, when we were wholly at our weakest, Hunger set himself upon this course.

Faint as it may be, our chance for victory has never shined brighter; From an infinitesimal speck, possibly immeasurable, to solidified upon a d100, incredible to think about. Every risk, every foolhardy bout of heroism has brought him to a place where his strike could land, and against foes that could even hamper the Acursed, I don't know that a cursebearer, not even on his second Geas, could ask for more.

I care a great deal about Hunger, I really admire him, and part of that, a great deal of it, is what you would consider symptoms of dying gang. To go through everything, and to falter at the last step, it would feel like apocrypha, though I would accept it as reality nonetheless.
 
I've been alerted to the fact that if Freedom wins we're in danger of the epilogue becoming an enemies to lovers fanfic! Please all right-minded voters rally behind Vengeance in order to avert this most sordid outcome!
 
I had thought the Winter Dynasty a reference to Imperishable Night. I had also imagined:

Duchess = Letrizia
The Overlord = Hunger
Seraph = Haeliel
Forester = Novakhron (?)
The Mandarin = Ber (?)
The Genius = Gisena
The Heir = Aobaru
The Barrister = Aeira
The Princess = Adorie

With Flicker of Soliton either a reference to the Forebear or the Accursed.
 
Orm Embar said:
It feels like the Forebear's getting undeserved flak! For a being whose life consisted of wading ever-deeper into hell, he retained an impressive amount of compassion. Though his wars were endless, where possible his victories were merciful. With absolute power comes the latitude for absolute benevolence. For a glimpse of what the Forebear did when things went well, you can check out A Winter Dynasty.
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I am well aware. From the very beginning, it was made clear that he was a tyrant so mighty, he had no need of cruelty.

But by having an opinion on the subject, you are tacitly disagreeing with his policy. You don't get to have those in his world. Your existence is automatically and unconditionally contextualized in reference to him. He is a black hole. Your atoms are moving according to his will; agency death doesn't begin to cover it. You provably don't exist. His Law defines your thought processes so utterly that cognition is inextricable from its texture, and your physicality is wholly dependent on his Spatial edicts. You are paint upon a canvas, allowed to imitate a mind and spirit because it eases the conscience of the king.

You're living under an older, more morally ambiguous Porky from Mother 3. It's fucking beautiful, but there's a reason the immigration policy is mostly handled by seraphic nervous disorder.
 
Shard said:
I had thought the Winter Dynasty a reference to Imperishable Night. I had also imagined:
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Nah, it's a previous Procession world where the Forebear won hard enough to have a free hand fixing up the place:
Rihaku said:
You have arrived here, in the Winter Dynasty of the Forebear eternal, a land of wondrous abundance.
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There are other hints, like there being ten quintillion years until the Overlord departs when Hunger's Indenture doesn't permit nearly that much latitude. The parallels between the cast can be chalked up to the opening lines of AST. Haeliel seems to be somehow associated with the Forebear, hence Vengeance yielding her favor and Inheritance unlocking her ending. Aeira is in some sense a latter day echo of the Barrister, though her predecessor was much more formidable.
 
Box Lunch said:
I am well aware. From the very beginning, it was made clear that he was a tyrant so mighty, he had no need of cruelty.

But by having an opinion on the subject, you are tacitly disagreeing with his policy. You don't get to have those in his world. Your existence is automatically and unconditionally contextualized in reference to him. He is a black hole. Your atoms are moving according to his will; agency death doesn't begin to cover it. You provably don't exist. His Law defines your thought processes so utterly that cognition is inextricable from its texture, and your physicality is wholly dependent on his Spatial edicts. You are paint upon a canvas, allowed to imitate a mind and spirit because it eases the conscience of the king.

You're living under an older, more morally ambiguous Porky from Mother 3. It's fucking beautiful, but there's a reason the immigration policy is mostly handled by seraphic nervous disorder.
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Wouldn't the exact same thing apply to the accursed only a lot more so, since he's considerably more powerful?
 
Orm Embar said:
Nah, it's a previous Procession world where the Forebear won hard enough to have a free hand fixing up the place:

There are other hints, like there being ten quintillion years until the Overlord departs when Hunger's Indenture doesn't permit nearly that much latitude. The parallels between the cast can be chalked about to the opening lines of AST. Haeliel seems to be somehow associated with the Forebear, hence Vengeance yielding her favor and Inheritance unlocking her ending. Aeira is in some sense a latter day echo of the Barrister, though her predecessor was much more formidable.
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...Huh. I'd missed that. That is fascinating.
 
There is a ~0.1-1% chance of successfully becoming a High Cursebearer and fully mitigating the Doom of the Tyrant.

I suspect there is a much, much higher chance than that of falling into old habits and becoming the Forebear again in truth, and an enemy of the Accursed.

[X] Freedom

I'd like to hope that Hunger has undergone some amount of positive character development over the course of the quest.
 
[X] Freedom

I actually believe Vengeance is an acceptable path, and it's a painful one to turn from, in some ways; the Hidden Ones absolutely deserve to be Cut Through. But something to consider is that the odds of that happening are not really even that great in Vengeance option, with Hunger's excessive possibility of dying. He'll probably die to an Apocryphal proc of some kind to them. Hell, there's not even a great chance he'll remove the Tyrant.

Conversely, Freedom not only ensures Hunger gets to be happy (even if it's with characters we barely care about, but it's an epilogue anyhow), it also means he's much more likely to meaningfully contribute to the Accursed's eventual victory, without the albatross of the Apocryphal Curse hanging around his neck. He will, after all, go on to mitigate his curses, even if it may be slower. And he's still got the Imperial (sord) Praxis, which probably means without Apocryphal he's really just doing fine throughout his indenture, maybe even mitigating curses more than a combat-type can normally expect to. And once A-dog wins, the Hidden Ones aren't an issue anyway. Though who knows whether or not monstrous entities like them will be punished. That might be a bit of a bitter pill to swallow.

Edit: Also, imagine the possible consequences if, on the path of Vengeance, the Accursed does eventually have to fight 4bear. Obviously he'll win, as he always finds a way etc etc, but he got cursed last time, which has had ludicrously far reaching consequences for just about everybody and everything. It could happen again, but worse. And given the Accursed is considering it likely to occur, that makes it a very salient issue.
 
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[X] Freedom

Before you seek vengeance, dig two graves.

It would be kind of problematic if Hunger/The Forebear ended up fighting the Accursed down the road. He did it once, why would he not do so again?
 
Shard said:
I had thought the Winter Dynasty a reference to Imperishable Night. I had also imagined:

Duchess = Letrizia
The Overlord = Hunger
Seraph = Haeliel
Forester = Novakhron (?)
The Mandarin = Ber (?)
The Genius = Gisena
The Heir = Aobaru
The Barrister = Aeira
The Princess = Adorie

With Flicker of Soliton either a reference to the Forebear or the Accursed.
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If the Blade was truly supposed to appear first in Even Further Beyond, then the Forester and Mandarin might be Suizhen and Xiaoling.
 
It might be worth thinking about how the Forebear ended up fighting and dying to the Accursed, not the Hidden Ones. It's also worth considering the nature of the Victorious world the Accursed intends to preside over. Is someone of the Forebear's nature - As described in the option itself - something that ought to exist in the Victorious world?
 
I have no idea where Box Lunch got the idea that the Forebear's Blade has shown up before.
 
[X] Vengeance

I don't want to flip our first choice. This isn't the time for an early retirement, not when we still have promises to keep.
 
Aabcehmu said:
I have no idea where Box Lunch got the idea that the Forebear's Blade has shown up before.
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It didn't. The Tomb of the Netherine is theorized to be a resting place for an incarnation of the Forebear, but we never went and don't know. A lot of minor details would seem to imply it, but again. Question marks gonna question.
 
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Box Lunch said:
It didn't. The Tomb of the Netherese is theorized to be a resting place for an incarnation of the Forebear, but we never went and don't know. A lot of minor details would seem to imply it, but again. Question marks gonna question.
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The Tomb of the Netherese is theorized to be the resting place of an incarnation of the Forebear?? I thought the consensus was that it was the tomb of another deity that the Fates defeated in the process of gaining sole control over the Lazulite Halls.
 
Shard said:
[X] Freedom

Before you seek vengeance, dig two graves.

It would be kind of problematic if Hunger/The Forebear ended up fighting the Accursed down the road. He did it once, why would he not do so again?
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Because the Forebear is now Hunger and Hunger quite likes the Accursed? Besides he has Gisena around to stop him going completely crazy. She's pretty good at managing his tyranny.
 
It's worth considering how much good Hunger could accomplish with the Imperial Praxis, Gisena, and no Apocryphal Curse forcing him into a pure combat build. Certainly the ontologies in your locality would fare better by most sights!

RedV said:
[X] Vengeance

I don't want to flip our first choice. This isn't the time for an early retirement, not when we still have promises to keep.
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E-early? The man went through the entire Procession of Worlds, ya know!
 
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