Rise of the Immortal King [Cultivation, CK2]

What temporary boost are you referring to? Personal Prowess appears quite permanent. It won't help us against someone too far above us, sure, but it doesn't go away, and +10 will never realistically stop being relevant.

The build I suggest is also a lot better at making money...we can buy Treasures with money if we need to.
We just discussed how we're unlikely to be able to speed run all of core formation or ascendant soul in five years so we should be able to quest for the hybrid cultivation technique to acquire it that way hence why I called it a temporary combat boost since we should be able to acquire it relatively quickly, potentially even before the civil war starts off due to it only taking eight turns to cultivate up to core formation and grab our high priority questing goals once we're in it meanwhile we have fifteen years to prep.

And your build may be better or it might be worse due to a combination of my plan's relatively superior intrigue allowing for better-negotiated positions, and the ability to put the screws to rivals if necessary to increase our own profits not to mention the fact I kept artificing allowing us to pick and choose the highest grossing commissions between the two crafting disciplines as they arise in addition to having twice as many income sources in the form of the artificing hall on top of the alchemy hall.

You're also unlikely to be able to purchase high-level treasures such as immortal foundation equipment due to that appearing to be the present ceiling of local cultivators, and therefore being strategic state assets but which we'll be able to craft at ascendant soul level.
 
We just discussed how we're unlikely to be able to speed run all of core formation or ascendant soul in five years so we should be able to quest for the hybrid cultivation technique to acquire it that way hence why I called it a temporary combat boost since we should be able to acquire it relatively quickly, potentially even before the civil war starts off due to it only taking eight turns to cultivate up to core formation and grab our high priority questing goals once we're in it meanwhile we have fifteen years to prep.

I feel like you're vastly underestimating how easy gaining a Secret Technique is. Like, it's considered on par with the artifice skills you're talking about. What makes you think it's easier to learn than they are?

And your build may be better or it might be worse due to a combination of my plan's relatively superior intrigue allowing for better-negotiated positions, and the ability to put the screws to rivals if necessary to increase our own profits not to mention the fact I kept artificing allowing us to pick and choose the highest grossing commissions between the two crafting disciplines as they arise in addition to having twice as many income sources in the form of the artificing hall on top of the alchemy hall.

Using blackmail on business transactions is generally bad policy. It makes enemies who you can't just kill (because they're your customers), and leaving live enemies behind you is never a good idea. It also gets you a bad reputation, and that's always detrimental, just as a good reputation is always valuable.

You're also unlikely to be able to purchase high-level treasures such as immortal foundation equipment due to that appearing to be the present ceiling of local cultivators, and therefore being strategic state assets but which we'll be able to craft at ascendant soul level.

Being worried about things that far down the road seems really premature. If we can learn a Secret Technique by the time we hit Core Formation, we could definitely learn Artifice by the time this becomes a factor.
 
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@Sir LagsAlot
@DeadmanwalkingXI



Are either of you willing to make a compromise to your plan? I'd really like the flexibility of the +20 affinity, in addition to the +40, and legendary core formation. I could care less about everything else, but. It's really me voting for one of your changed plans, or me just making a new plan, causing no real support to any plans already made.
 
Are either of you willing to make a compromise to your plan? I'd really like the flexibility of the +20 affinity, in addition to the +40, and legendary core formation. I could care less about everything else, but. It's really me voting for one of your changed plans, or me just making a new plan, causing no real support to any plans already made.
That's not an option we're only allowed to take each option once it mentions that at the top of the plan-making section so you either take a plus forty to one element or plus twenty to all elements not both hence my previous messages referring to eighty affinity being the maximum until later cultivation stages.
 
RE: Action Economy for Alchemy/Artifice

Just to clarify my intentions, there are two components to all the Production options.

The first is the passive economic benefits. These stack between branches. So artifice+alchemy = 2 revenue / economic growth boosting bonuses. This means your local market is going to have Treasures & Pills in large amounts of about Energy Cycling -> Foundation Establishment. Once you hit Core Formation, you'd have decent access to those. Once you hit Ascendant Soul, you'd have decent access to those as well.

What you won't have decent access to is once you hit Immortal Foundation+. Getting yourself through those will be expensive, a second person of equal power is basically impossible. A step lower? Sure. But equal? No.

If you do not take a production option, you'll need to import the pills/treasures/whatever. This comes with transportation risk as transportation of valuables is vulnerable to interception unless you get it personally. It also comes with transportation costs in terms of a personal action to transport or paying guards/caravan.

In terms of active production of these goods:

For alchemy, the limiting factor is time. Producing pills is time consuming but relatively cheap. So for alchemy, you would be action limited to make the high purity/low corruption pills of all kinds. The ingredients, however, are close enough to free for a noble as to be irrelevant. With some exceptions, particularly rare/powerful pills are expensive. So if you want a breakthrough pill, expect to pay alot for that.

Keep in mind for pills, you are producing them in sets of 5. So 1 action = 5x pill supported actions. Then they are gone. So if you have 6 actions per turn and one is producing pills, in theory, you are basically supporting every action with a pill at the cost of 1 action. More or less.

For artifice, the limiting factor is cost. A single successful action produces a single treasure. But if you are Core Formation and are crafting an Ascendant Soul grade Treasure? You are going to pay a steep price. Its technically one action but it will be 5 entire turns of income to produce such a thing at the start.

Core Formation would only be an entire turn's worth of income and 1 personal action.

The thing here is Treasures are permanent. So a permanent +3 might be equal to a pill but the pill supply eventually runs out.
 
That's not an option we're only allowed to take each option once it mentions that at the top of the plan-making section so you either take a plus forty to one element or plus twenty to all elements not both hence my previous messages referring to eighty affinity being the maximum until later cultivation stages.
Ah got it, sorry for misunderstanding.

That said, wouldn't a more generalist build be better?

I understand focus, but assuming all affinities can be increased down the line... A doubled bonus on all affinities makes it so that 20's are effectively 40's with extra gains down the line.
 
Ah got it, sorry for misunderstanding.

That said, wouldn't a more generalist build be better?

I understand focus, but assuming all affinities can be increased down the line... A doubled bonus on all affinities makes it so that 20's are effectively 40's with extra gains down the line.

The thing is, in terms of fighting at least, secondary affinities tend to just lose to one focused affinity. They're good for utility, I suppose...but how often does the need for that kind of utility really come up?
 
I feel like you're vastly underestimating how easy gaining a Secret Technique is. Like, it's considered on par with the artifice skills you're talking about. What makes you think it's easier to learn than they are?

Artifice = Skills + Supply Chain, so its probably going to work on 3 personals for the skills and another 3 strategic for the supply chain/artifice hall in your fief.

Secret Technique = 5 sequential successful personal actions.

Just to clarify so people don't make assumptions. That is the successful action budget I had in mind for these things.
 
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I feel like you're vastly underestimating how easy gaining a Secret Technique is. Like, it's considered on par with the artifice skills you're talking about. What makes you think it's easier to learn than they are?
I'm not though? Like I literally discussed this with the QM. And, learning a single discrete technique to hybridize our cultivation sounds a lot easier to learn than the entire discipline of alchemy or artificing plus even if we were to learn either later down the road we still wouldn't have the related infrastructure either character creation option starts us off with making learning it later distinctly inferior to taking the option now when there's no such comparison for that bit of combat power.
Using blackmail on business transactions is generally bad policy. It makes enemies who you can't just kill (because they're your customers), and leaving live enemies behind you is never a good idea. It also gets you a bad reputation, and that's always detrimental, just as a good reputation is always valuable.
I wasn't thinking of blackmail intrigue directly serves to improve ones negotiating abilities in addition to the benefits it'll be providing us in the apparent snake den that is the nobility of this world, and knocking down our rivals with blackmail among other intrigue tactics is just good sense.
Being worried about things that far down the road seems really premature. If we can learn a Secret Technique by the time we hit Core Formation, we could definitely learn Artifice by the time this becomes a factor.
It's not that far down the road ascendant soul appears to be the average level of a head of house in this world. And, again for the reasons stated above even if learning a hybrid cultivation technique takes the same amount of time as master an entire crafting discipline that still leaves the cultivation technique as distinctly inferior overall in terms of relative benefits.
Ah got it, sorry for misunderstanding.

That said, wouldn't a more generalist build be better?

I understand focus, but assuming all affinities can be increased down the line... A doubled bonus on all affinities makes it so that 20's are effectively 40's with extra gains down the line.
No, a generalist build would be worse since our maximum possible bonus would be lower meaning we're weaker overall than a focused build, especially at medium to high combat levels where people can swap around the elements they're using to avoid us countering their elements. By comparison, a focused life build just needs a secondary of half-decent strength it can swap to fight death users since death is overall weaker than normal elements so even a peak death user should be beatable with a weaker secondary affinity.
 
I'm not though? Like I literally discussed this with the QM. And, learning a single discrete technique to hybridize our cultivation sounds a lot easier to learn than the entire discipline of alchemy or artificing plus even if we were to learn either later down the road we still wouldn't have the related infrastructure either character creation option starts us off with making learning it later distinctly inferior to taking the option now when there's no such comparison for that bit of combat power.

Just to be clear here, they are roughly equal to learn. Its just the actions are split differently for a production skill set vs. a non-production skillset. Production is a mix of personal & strategic actions while a secret technique is 100% personal actions since you can't trust intermediaries.
 
No, a generalist build would be worse since our maximum possible bonus would be lower meaning we're weaker overall than a focused build, especially at medium to high combat levels where people can swap around the elements they're using to avoid us countering their elements. By comparison, a focused life build just needs a secondary of half-decent strength it can swap to fight death users since death is overall weaker than normal elements so even a peak death user should be beatable with a weaker secondary affinity.
Very Well, you convinced me. I shall vote for the other guy's plan.


[X] Plan Knight of Life
 
I'm not though? Like I literally discussed this with the QM. And, learning a single discrete technique to hybridize our cultivation sounds a lot easier to learn than the entire discipline of alchemy or artificing plus even if we were to learn either later down the road we still wouldn't have the related infrastructure either character creation option starts us off with making learning it later distinctly inferior to taking the option now when there's no such comparison for that bit of combat power.

My point wasn't that it was impossible, it was that the two were roughly equivalent (which they are, per the above QM post above, though I'll grant that going Artificer apparently saves an action, since learning a technique is only 5 of them. It likely takes longer to hit the peak though since you can split the actions needed to learn Artificer better...we could have it in three years with some good rolls without crippling our other personal training).

I wasn't thinking of blackmail intrigue directly serves to improve ones negotiating abilities in addition to the benefits it'll be providing us in the apparent snake den that is the nobility of this world, and knocking down our rivals with blackmail among other intrigue tactics is just good sense.

I'm fine with high Intrigue. I like high Intrigue, in fact, but I'm pretty sure it'll never make as much money as Stewardship. Making money is further outside its area.

It's not that far down the road ascendant soul appears to be the average level of a head of house in this world. And, again for the reasons stated above even if learning a hybrid cultivation technique takes the same amount of time as master an entire crafting discipline that still leaves the cultivation technique as distinctly inferior overall in terms of relative benefits.

As gone into by the QM above, learning the skills alone would actually be easier. My point wasn't that we couldn't use artificer skills, it was that if learning them was valid we had more than enough time before high realm concerns dominated like this.

But honestly, given that we can get whichever of these we don't get now down the road, I think we can leave the discussion here. It's a minor difference and we can focus on picking up whichever we don't have to start with in the near future.
 
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Also, sorry but My life's goal is going to be getting soul affinity.

Honestly, picking up secondary affinities is great, especially Soul since it's got the Perception stuff. It's just not worth giving up large amounts of your main Affinity. I'm down for pursuing Soul to some degree and maybe one other just in case we run into Death...all depending on the opportunity costs, of course.
 
Honestly, picking up secondary affinities is great, especially Soul since it's got the Perception stuff. It's just not worth giving up large amounts of your main Affinity. I'm down for pursuing Soul to some degree and maybe one other just in case we run into Death...all depending on the opportunity costs, of course.
Analytically two affinities jump out as the best tertiary affinitues.

Fire, and Illusion.

Fire counters the most elements. So great secondary combat element.

Illusion adds additional techniques we can use in combat, and I think there are some nice things we can do with those 3, if we can combine them. As they seem to reinforce each other.
 
A Rough Sketch of the Fief's Neighbors
West, the Wilds

The Wilds is home to a variety of ruins of a lost Empire that fell when their cultivators grew too powerful, too decadent to manage the corruption within their souls. It is said the secrets to become an Immortal King are among these ruins but there are dangers stronger than our good Emperor out there as well. It is the reason the land has never been reclaimed. Leave the kami, kaiju, and other city-killers alone I say.

North, Harton, House Uchaka

To the North, you have House Uchaka's fief. It is currently managed by a Core Formation expert said to have a focus on Fire focusing secondarily on Death. He explores the Wilds regularly with a small retinue of retainers and brings back valuable scrolls, other reference material, and the occasional Treasure. He claims his interest is historical but your father suspects House Uchaka has tasked him with finding the secrets of Immortal Foundation for their clan elder who is nearing the point where even a new cultivation level will not be enough.

While this has made Uchaka Lang a powerful man on a personal level, his fief is neglected and left to administrators who are likely corrupt or incompetent. Perhaps a mix of both. Whatever the cause, his forces are half the size they should be for a fief bordering the Wilds. You can expect no help from him and, importantly, he may prove a liability should his personal power fail to solve a problem.

South, Maton, House Mirin

To the South, you have House Mirin. They are known, not for artifice or pills or any of the traditional cultivation arts. Instead, they are known for their cooking. Given they named themselves after a staple in Empire cooking, that should be no surprise. They are a powerful House by your father's standards. Certainly more powerful than yours.

However, the fief of Maton has been where they have exiled their least valuable members and is distant from their core holdings. A vulnerability that might be exploited if the rumors of an Imperial Civil War are to be believed. While they have not neglected their house troops like the fief of Harton, they have no strong champion like Uchaka Lang. So that is a weakness of a different sort. A powerful cultivator can dominate the lesser.

Their food is said to speed cultivation without corruption via some secret technique and a contract with Mirin would be useful in that regard. It is, perhaps, a 15% boost but that is an entire stage you can skip as each cultivation tier has 9 stages.

The current head of the fief is Mirin Shoto.

Northeast, Osaka, House Ito

To the Northeast you have the city-state of Osaka ruled by House Ito. They are a genuine power on the border with their core holdings bordering their city further east. In the mountains east of Osaka there is the strongest cultivation resort the Empire has ever seen. It provides a full 50% increase in cultivation speed to the lucky few who are permitted to cultivate there at no cost to corruption. However, it is currently limited to the Imperial family and the head of House Ito.

Despite this, the head of House Ito is only Ascendant Soul although many suspect in the years to come he will reach Immortal Foundation. A potential contender for the throne if war was to break out. That is for certain.

This fief is the trade hub for the region, even if it heavily depends on food imports. Anything legal to sell can be bought here for the right price. Even some illegal things for a slight markup can be found if one has the right contacts.

Their house troops are the strongest and most numerous in the region. However, they have three fiefs to defend and not enough food to last long if besieged. They must maintain allies with their food producing neighbors to keep Osaka and their house troops fed. Your father has admitted if war came, he would suggest you conquer your neighbors along the wilds then cut food supplies to Osaka from the west. It would be enough to tip the scales in your favor.

It is ruled by the head of House Ito, the Lady Ito Kusanagi.

East, Stripen, House Otto

To the East is one of the few outliers, a noble house from beyond the Empire that secured a place here. They control only the one fief and their head is barely into Ascendant Soul but they are still noteworthy. They have strong Death cultivation techniques and their scions wander the Wilds freely killing spirit beasts to gather this power. Whatever they are doing to accelerate their cultivation, it works. While your family has 1 Ascendant Soul, 3 Core Formation, and You? They have 2 Ascendant Souls and 6 Core Formation in their main branch alone!

In any plan to displace House Ito as the queen of this region, you would need Otto's support. They are the only one House with enough powerful members to challenge Ito directly. That is assuming, of course, you figure out how to deal with an Immortal Foundation tier cultivator. Even for Otto, fighting such an old monster would be suicide.

Their household troops are average for the reason and they are mostly an agrarian valley fulfilling orders for spirit herbs, spirit grain, and more mundane food for Osaka.

William Otto is the current head of house and the lord of Stripen.

Southeast, Valley of Shadow, House Nakamura

The southeast is occupied one of the few openly admitted Ninja Houses. They cultivate Darkness and Death energy primarily. These elements form the backbone of their deadly assassination techniques that have allowed them to eliminate anyone who has seriously threatened their core holdings.

While the Valley of Shadow is distant from those same core holdings, it is used as a staging ground for journeys into the Wilds to use Death cultivation legally. It also doubles as a training ground for their young. As it does not touch the border, it is secure enough to be used for such.

The import and export little besides spies and ninja. Few trust them but it is said their current position is secured by the word of the Emperor himself.

The current head of fief is unknown.
 
My point wasn't that it was impossible, it was that the two were roughly equivalent (which they are, per the above QM post above, though I'll grant that going Artificer apparently saves an action, since learning a technique is only 5 of them. It likely takes longer to hit the peak though since you can split the actions needed to learn Artificer better...we could have it in three years with some good rolls without crippling our other personal training).
It does cost you in terms of fief development though, and the extra increased income generated in that time from the already present infrastructure provided by the character creation option that could be spent on permanent strength-boosting artifacts in the meantime.
I'm fine with high Intrigue. I like high Intrigue, in fact, but I'm pretty sure it'll never make as much money as Stewardship. Making money is further outside its area.
You're not actually engaging with my argument related to this topic here. You've snipped a counter-argument to a different argument you were making and are now applying it to an unrelated argument it was not rebutting.
Tbh, the treasure costs means Artificery is best later down the line.
Artificing is actually better off acquired early in my opinion alongside alchemy so that our fief generates more funds, and so that we can more easily develop our fief further allowing us to acquire more artificing gear than we otherwise would plus it allows us to spread out the action cost of artificing more evenly also easing another potential bottleneck, therefore, increasing our strength in the long run.

Meanwhile, we only really need a hybrid technique right before the civil war so that we can boost our combat strength further for when it will really matter.
North, Harton, House Uchaka
Hire a decent general, develop our fief military forces, and strike well the owner is away. We may be countered by his secondary death affinity but still quite winnable overall.
South, Maton, House Mirin
Our overwhelming core formation strength as a life cultivator should carry the day here.
Northeast, Osaka, House Ito
Consolidate fief holdings in the region for leverage which we use to acquire a good position within their faction once war breaks out allowing us to bide our time until a good opportunity to backstab them appears.
East, Stripen, House Otto
Attempt to get them to side with us and join House Ito's faction as an internal ally as that will provide further leverage well also handily providing a counter to enemy death users for us until we acquire a strong secondary element to deal with death users. But if all else fails House Ito can serve as a deterrent against House Otto allowing us to survive long enough to oppose and hopefully conquer them on our own in this scenario before turning these resources upon House Ito.
Southeast, Valley of Shadow, House Nakamura
Allies, definitely allies, or failing that attempt to keep them neutral. We'll want to court them at all costs because a war against them will most likely prove to be counter-productive at best due to their specialty making even a victory almost certainly a pyrrhic one.
 
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It does cost you in terms of fief development though, and the extra increased income generated in that time from the already present infrastructure provided by the character creation option that could be spent on permanent strength-boosting artifacts in the meantime.

There are tradeoffs in everything. It's a similar number of actions either way and I really don't think this is worth having a huge argument about.

You're not actually engaging with my argument related to this topic here. You've snipped a counter-argument to a different argument you were making and are now applying it to an unrelated argument it was not rebutting.

Okay, see, from my perspective this conversation went like this:

1. You responded to me saying that higher Stewardship would make more money with 'No, Intrigue can do that, too.' and listing some rather shady examples.
2. I said that shady tactics like that were problematic.
3. You brought up somewhat less shady tactics.
4. I responded with 'That might help, but not as much as just having higher Stewardship' (returning to Point #1, which from my perspective was the whole point of this discussion).

I'm not sure where I'm refusing to engage here or how I misinterpreted you? If I did, my apologies.
 
[X] Plan Plant God
-[X] Student of Business (+10 Stewardship)
-[X] Battle Mage (+10 Personal Prowess, Magical combat orientation.)
--- [X] Wood
-[X] Spirit Grain Farms (Gain farming skills, gain Spirit Grain Farms + related supply chain, increase cultivation speed by 10% without Corruption Cost)
-[X] Horticulture (33% increased yield of Spirit Herb and Spirit Grain operations) --- Requires taking Spirit Grain Farms or Alchemist options.
-[X] Enhanced Affinities -- Requires taking 1 Affinity.
--- [X] +40 to one Affinity
-[X] Legendary Core Manual (A manual that helps with forming a Core, automatic success of Core Formation attempts. Core bonuses doubled when formed, the equivalent of a crit success on the formation attempt.)
-[X] Loyal Ninja Team (A 3 person team of Ninja sworn to you personally. Better intelligence/counter-intelligence capabilities.)
-[X] Normal - +2 Picks. Every few years a threat outside your weight class will appear and need to be managed. (Kami, Kaiju, More Powerful Lord bullies you, etc.) Imperial civil War begins on Turn/Year 25.
 
Okay, see, from my perspective this conversation went like this:

1. You responded to me saying that higher Stewardship would make more money with 'No, Intrigue can do that, too.' and listing some rather shady examples.
2. I said that shady tactics like that were problematic.
3. You brought up somewhat less shady tactics.
4. I responded with 'That might help, but not as much as just having higher Stewardship' (returning to Point #1, which from my perspective was the whole point of this discussion).

I'm not sure where I'm refusing to engage here or how I misinterpreted you? If I did, my apologies.
The problem is that you've nitpicked a small portion of a single larger paragraph with multiple arguments within it creating an unintentional straw man that doesn't exist including what appears to be memories of something I never even wrote.
And your build may be better or it might be worse due to a combination of my plan's relatively superior intrigue allowing for better-negotiated positions, and the ability to put the screws to rivals if necessary to increase our own profits not to mention the fact I kept artificing allowing us to pick and choose the highest grossing commissions between the two crafting disciplines as they arise in addition to having twice as many income sources in the form of the artificing hall on top of the alchemy hall.
All your posts have solely focused on rebutting one of four arguments within this paragraph which focuses on a confluence of factors within my plan, not the intrigue stat, and only the intrigue stat.

Namely that argument was the first one which was our ability to leverage higher intrigue within diplomatic situations but in the process of that you've not bothered to field counter-arguments against using intrigue to directly undercut enemies, how artificing can serve to increase income, and how additional income sources will do the same.

Never once did I field the argument "No, intrigue can do that, too" as its own independent argument but rather as merely part of a greater cohesive point about where my own plan possesses monetary edges relative to your own hence the reduction of my argument to the aforementioned quote being an unintentional straw man.
 
The problem is that you've nitpicked a small portion of a single larger paragraph with multiple arguments within it creating an unintentional straw man that doesn't exist including what appears to be memories of something I never even wrote.

All your posts have solely focused on rebutting one of four arguments within this paragraph which focuses on a confluence of factors within my plan, not the intrigue stat, and only the intrigue stat.

Namely that argument was the first one which was our ability to leverage higher intrigue within diplomatic situations but in the process of that you've not bothered to field counter-arguments against using intrigue to directly undercut enemies, how artificing can serve to increase income, and how additional income sources will do the same.

Never once did I field the argument "No, intrigue can do that, too" as its own independent argument but rather as merely part of a greater cohesive point about where my own plan possesses monetary edges relative to your own hence the reduction of my argument to the aforementioned quote being an unintentional straw man.

Okay, so, I only argued with the part of that I disagreed with, which is that Intrigue will have a big effect on our finances absent things like theft or blackmail, and that I think we shouldn't do those too often.

Obviously artifice ups our total money if we take it (though I do believe that, in the long run, upping Stewardship provides more...just not as many other benefits). That is self evidently true and I didn't think it needed to be commented on. Looking back, that was clearly a bad choice since it left the impression I was dismissing it out of hand, so I'm sorry about that, I screwed up in properly communicating what I was trying to say there. My intent was purely to focus on the few points of disagreement since I think we actually agree on the vast majority of stuff about both character creation and what the best options are, and that clearly came off badly in a way that I didn't intend, so, yeah, sorry again.

In terms of the actual argument about what's better, the QM has asked we not discuss that any more and let the votes fall where they may, which seems fair enough, so I'm not gonna go any further into that, but I am sorry for the miscommunication here, which is mostly or entirely my fault and I wanted to say that.
 
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