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East Africa 1930: An ORBAT Quest

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ILSergenteSalv said:
The 6.5 Arisaka is a poor long-term solution. Plus, the only poor guns chambered in the Carcano ammunition are the Fiat-Revelli. The Carcano rifles are reliable and good guns (see Forgotten Weapons & C&Rsenal videos about it if you don't believe me) and the Perino is a very good MG (see vbbsmyth videos on it), I don't know why only the Carabinieri got their hand on them.

The Japanese rifles we have are not the good ones (the Nambu-Arisaka Type 36) but the bad ones (Arisaka Type 30 and Murata rifles)



You are right, but I want that our reform to be carried out in the best and fastest way possible: the schools are a prerequisite.
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The Fiat-Revelli is terrible. The Carcano rifles are okay for a 6.5 mm, but I'm assuming that they've been kicking around for decades at this point based on the low numbers, and more importantly, has a different cartridge. Getting more of them makes no sense. The Perino is a heavy, water-cooled MG in 6.5 mm; I don't think it's particularly great for what we need (which is something mobile enough that it can easily be carried around by foot infantry). When the number of guns we're dealing with is already so low, better to just let them naturally age out of the service while we replace them with a new gun in five year's time.

I think schools first will sabotage our reforms no matter what. We start the reforms, then build the schools with them in mind.
Silversun17 said:
Is there anything wrong with the bullet itself? I would think we would want native rifle production regardless of the ammo we use.
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For a machine gun, it's awfully small. For a rifle, it's not terrible, AIUI?
 
Silversun17 said:
Is there anything wrong with the bullet itself? I would think we would want native rifle production regardless of the ammo we use.
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it's a Semi-Rimmed type case: it will get difficult to use it in a belt feeded system. We will need a replacement in the middle of the quest. The 6.5 Carcano is rimless and exists at least two variants with a spitzer bullet. Plus, the spitzer Carcano has a similar ballistic to the 6.5 Creemore and will be ok as an GPMG/LMG cartridge: see the NGSW program of the US army.

C_Z said:
The Fiat-Revelli is terrible. The Carcano rifles are okay for a 6.5 mm, but I'm assuming that they've been kicking around for decades at this point based on the low numbers, and more importantly, has a different cartridge. Getting more of them makes no sense. The Perino is a heavy, water-cooled MG in 6.5 mm; I don't think it's particularly great for what we need (which is something mobile enough that it can easily be carried around by foot infantry). When the number of guns we're dealing with is already so low, better to just let them naturally age out of the service while we replace them with a new gun in five year's time.
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I don't mean the weapons are OK, but surely they are better than the Japanese ones (with the exception of the Type 3). But I agree with replacing them with better guns within five years, the thing I am arguing about is the 6.5mm Carcano being a better long-term solution.

C_Z said:
I think schools first will sabotage our reforms no matter what. We start the reforms, then build the schools with them in mind.
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Why they will sabotage them? I think that NOT starting with schools will sabotage our military reforms on a long-term basis: mostly by not properly trained people slipping in high places and screwing up.
 
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@C_Z , see? it will take months on the worst.

I think that creating a proper cadre training pipe is better: this will greatly support any of the successive reforms.
Plus, if we do it right will help lower the ethnic tensions: knowledge, used in the right way, is a tool against discrimination.
 
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ILSergenteSalv said:
it's a Semi-Rimmed type case: it will get difficult to use it in a belt feeded system. We will need a replacement in the middle of the quest. The 6.5 Carcano is rimless and exists at least two variants with a spitzer bullet. Plus, the spitzer Carcano has a similar ballistic to the 6.5 Creemore and will be ok as an MG cartridge: see the NGSW program of the US army.



I don't mean the weapons are OK, but surely they are better than the Japanese ones (with the exception of the Type 3).



Why they will sabotage them?
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(obviously we need to copy the feed system of the ShKAS, it requires rimmed cartridges and it's a short jump from there to fielding infantry units with a revolver cannon :V)

The Japanese ones are good because we have a lot of them. If we had equal numbers of the carcano and the arisaka, I'd be less inclined to go with the Japanese bullet, but that's not the case. If we're going to be buying thousands of rifles (or, really, we should be making our own), then we shouldn't cause a giant logistics headache by having two different types of bullet.

We currently have what amounts to two separate armies divided along racial lines. The proper army, with its Somali officer corps, is going to raise a hell of a fuss if we try and start sending Bantu to the fancy new officer schools we just built. The military doesn't exist in a vacuum; if we build the training schools before we "legitimize" Bantu soldiers from the carabinieri, then we'll be fighting against constant pushbacks from the Army.
 
ILSergenteSalv said:
(the Nambu-Arisaka Type 36)
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I think you meant Type 30 there because that's what we have and there was never a Type 36 bolt-action rifle.

As far as i am aware there has only been the Type 30, Type 35, Type 38, and the Type 1 (Italian made) bolt-action rifle's in 6.5X50mmSR Arisaka.
 
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Wilgus04 said:
I think you meant Type 30 there because that's what and there was never Type 36 bolt-action rifle.

As far as i am aware there has only been the Type 30, Type 35, Type 38, and the Type 1 (Italian made) bolt-action rifle's in 6.5X50mmSR Arisaka.
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I mean that we have the Arisaka Type 30 (the crappy rifle) and not the Nambu-Arisaka Type 38(the best one).

@C_Z , give me some time to write a reply...
 
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Silversun17 said:
Googling can't find any rifle named Nambu-Arisaka Type 36.
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Because the guy that created the Type 36(Type 38 my error) rifle was Kijiro Nambu, but all the Japanese bolt-actions are known as "Arisaka" because Nariakira Arisaka deigned the first smokeless Japanese rifle: the Type 30. See the C&Rsenal video about them.

OOPS: I miscalled a rifle Type 36, the name was Type 38... i don't know why i used that name
 
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ILSergenteSalv said:
Because the guy that created the Type 36 rifle was Kijiro Nambu, but all the Japanese bolt-actions are known as "Arisaka" because Nariakira Arisaka deigned the first smokeless Japanese rifle: the Type 30. See the C&Rsenal video about them.
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Can you link a wikipedia page or something on the actual weapon so we're all on the same page.
 
What we're voting on now doesn't really seem to be a turn in and of itself? It's more like we're defining the next four year (or however long) plan and asking for resources to accomplish such.

That said, there are two write-ins that I'm both shocked no one has suggested and that are vital to our future.

[] Integrate the Army
We currently have ethnically segregated units who aren't even permitted their own officers. That has to change.

[] Reform the 1st Regiment into the Republican Guard
The monarchists are right about one thing, a parade ground only unit needs to be reformed.
 
C_Z said:
(obviously we need to copy the feed system of the ShKAS, it requires rimmed cartridges and it's a short jump from there to fielding infantry units with a revolver cannon :V)
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Why using with a complicated system only to feed complicated Semi-Rimmed ammunition, if you can use a simple one to feed Rimless ammunition: like the one of the ZB-53 (later used in the Negev LMG), or the one of the MG34-MG42(later used in the FN MAG GPMG).

C_Z said:
The Japanese ones are good because we have a lot of them. If we had equal numbers of the carcano and the arisaka, I'd be less inclined to go with the Japanese bullet, but that's not the case. If we're going to be buying thousands of rifles (or, really, we should be making our own), then we shouldn't cause a giant logistics headache by having two different types of bullet.
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The conversion of them to 6.5 Carcano is simple: replace the bolt-face (that is separate from the bolt itself) and use the Salerno Method to rebore the barrel and chamber (this was also used by the British to re-use consumed Vickers MG barrels during WW1)

C_Z said:
We currently have what amounts to two separate armies divided along racial lines. The proper army, with its Somali officer corps, is going to raise a hell of a fuss if we try and start sending Bantu to the fancy new officer schools we just built. The military doesn't exist in a vacuum; if we build the training schools before we "legitimize" Bantu soldiers from the carabinieri, then we'll be fighting against constant pushbacks from the Army.
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We won't "legitimize" Bantu soldiers by reforming the carabinieri: we only will segregate them (see how that's turned out for the USA: they needed one civil war and two world wars before being recognized).

grimely said:
What we're voting on now doesn't really seem to be a turn in and of itself? It's more like we're defining the next four year (or however long) plan and asking for resources to accomplish such.

That said, there are two write-ins that I'm both shocked no one has suggested and that are vital to our future.

[] Integrate the Army
We currently have ethnically segregated units who aren't even permitted their own officers. That has to change.

[] Reform the 1st Regiment into the Republican Guard
The monarchists are right about one thing, a parade ground only unit needs to be reformed.
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Didn't noticed that, gimme some minutes to create a better plan.
 
Silversun17 said:
Do we actually need to use a belt for for LMGs? Magazine based ones work in that role.
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It's not only for LMG, work also for a light GPMG.

Moreover:

[X]Plan: Lay The Foundation and Get Our Priorities Straight 2.0
-[X] Establish an infantry training school with annexed primary and secondary schooling
-[X] Establish an officer training school with annexed university
-[X] Establish an artillery school with technical tertiary school specializations (is better to call it an Ordnance school)
-[X] Choose a single cartridge for the military: 6.5mm Carcano (universal cartridge, bottlenecked rimless, easier to feed in a belt system that the Arisaka, slightly more powerful, in 1930 exists at least two variants with a spitzer bullet)
-[X] Integrate the Army

Rationale:
  • We need to put the basis for our military cadre to implement more reforms, it doesn't matter if we have the best equipment and services if our officers and soldiers don't know how to use them best. This will also ease and streamline our modernization process as we have a more military and technologically savvy officer cadre to carry out our reforms.
  • The annexed schools will also raise literacy and reasoning capabilities among our ranks, increase the capacity of taking the initiative and maintain it. Plus, the morale of the ranks will increase and more people will join the armed forces as they will be able to exit the military with a comprehensive education that will help them in life after the service.
  • A broader artillery school will do similar things, but also expand the ability of the procurement service of designing and creating new tools. While also having useful employment in the civilian field, mainly infrastructural projects.
  • Don't be tricked by the Carcano cartridge reputation, remember that the 6.5 Creedmore ballistic mimics the one of the Carcano. Plus, remember that the cartridge's poor accuracy reputation is given by the fact that post-war, the reproductions of the cartridges were sub-par and not built to proper specifications (.264 instead of the real caliber: .267).
  • Moreover, we can use a modernized version of the Carcano cartridge in assault rifles in the late stages of the quest, it's a universal cartridge: if we choose a spitzer version of that, we will not have to switch cartridges anytime soon.
  • We currently have ethnically segregated units that aren't even permitted their own officers. That has to change.
  • Doing anything before laying these bases will prejudicate and make more difficult any future development.
 
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Okay, a plan with a bunch of write-ins:

[] Plan: Arming The Local Defence Volunteers
-[] Reform the Carabinieri
-[] Find a way to improve Logistics through oxen
-[] Establish an officer training school for the Carabinieri
-[] Establish a Council-controlled Information and Analysis Office
-[] Create a domestic, nationalized arms manufacturing industry

Rationale:
  • I'm avoiding "choose a single cartridge" or "modernize the [x] units" because IMO it's a mix of low priority or the options aren't that great yet. I'd really like to adopt a domestic pack/mountain howitzer, for example, but we can't do that right now (or better yet, a recoilless rifle due to the incredibly low weight, but again, nowhere near that point). Our rifle stocks are also so heavily biased towards the 6.5 mm Arisaka already that I don't think there's an urgent need to standardize.
  • The Carabinieri is already the primary armed forces in our interior and likely what will be doing most of the fighting in a future war until an invader reaches the cities. There is significant political pressure to modernize them. Turning them into a proper fighting force will help address the inherent racial divides in our armed forces. Once we've reformed them, we can get started on refitting everyone with new equipment and the like.
  • While a Waystation Service and Air Force would be nice, I think they're low priorities and should probably be done together - look at Chennault's doctrine with the Flying Tigers as an example.
  • The army already uses cattle for some logistics, so they're more easy to procure and upkeep than horses. Sure, oxen are significantly slower than horses, but they can pull heavier loads, so if we're not conducting a war of maneuver, let's go with what works. It's also more economical since we don't have to both procure horses and switch to horse logistics, we can just use the same working animals as what's already used in the region.
  • I think an officer training school is the best training school in terms of "bang for our buck". We can't feed the entire Carabinieri through the infantry school, and until we modernize the artillery, having a school for them isn't much help. I specified "for the Carabinieri" because otherwise I think they won't get touched at all, and we can then send out the officers and have them train the volunteers/find new Bantu volunteers to send to the training schools.
  • If it's just the military, I bet that the Carabinieri will be immediately sidelined. Better to have the Council-controlled Office serving as a "joint chiefs of staff" equivalent.
  • While I'd like to desegregate the army, there'll likely be a lot of pushback from the military on that, and I don't want a bunch of angry officers who've been learning a bit too much about Gekokujō while visiting Japan deciding we're better off gone. If we start by showing that Bantu can be effective soldiers and officers, then we can fold them into the regular Army when we do our reforms of that for the next "longterm objectives".
  • The first vote set our strengths towards having a domestic arms industry. We chose independent, which means we're going to get much less aid in terms of materiel, we have significant mines and heavy industry, and our "friend" of Japan is on the other side of a British-controlled ocean. Having our own military production is extremely important, and the best time to build factories is yesterday. This is a prerequisite for lots of things like standardizing our rifles, modernizing the artillery, building a coastal navy, and so on in a way that's sustainable once we're no longer able to rely on Japanese supply (which will happen soon!).
 
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ILSergenteSalv said:
It's not only for LMG, work also for a light GPMG
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I know metawise we want to have a GPMG but would it be thought of IC. It looks like the IJA fielded either LMGs or HMGs based on what I'm finding online.


Edit: I've got a bit of a crazy idea for if we use the japanese bullet, what if we combo Howard carr's pan magazine desgin with the concept used in the Japnese type 11's hopper magazine system?

Carr's pan magazine got up to 310 round by stacking rounds vertically while the Type 11 LMG could feed rounds straight from a stripper clip. What I'm thinking is that we basicly make a pan magazine that we can load with 5 round stripper clips.
 
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Silversun17 said:
I know metawise we want to have a GPMG but would it be thought of IC. It looks like the IJA fielded either LMGs or HMGs based on what I'm finding online
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We don't have to follow only the Japanese: around this time the Danish were publishing materials about the GPMG concept. A

Plus, my argument is about the 6.5mm Carcano being a better and more modern cartridge: even in 1924 there was a variant with a spitzer bullet, but the Regio Esercito didn't adopt that because they wanted to pass to the 7.35 Carcano cartridge.
 
[X] Plan: Foundations for Maneuver
-[X] Choose a single cartridge for the military
-[X] Establish a Remount Service to supply horses to the Army
-[X] Find a way to improve logistics through horses
-[X] Establish a Council-controlled Information and Analysis Office
-[X] Reform the Carabinieri

I'm on Team 🐎 here.
 
ILSergenteSalv said:
We don't have to follow only the Japanese: around this time the Danish were publishing materials about the GPMG concept. A

Plus, my argument is about the 6.5mm Carcano being a better and more modern cartridge: even in 1924 there was a variant with a spitzer bullet, but the Regio Esercito didn't adopt that because they wanted to pass to the 7.35 Carcano cartridge.
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I put another idea in my last post incase we use a semi rimed round.
 
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Silversun17 said:
If put another idea in the post incase we use a semi rimless round.
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What do you mean?

Plus, I have a better idea for my plan:

[X]Plan: Lay The Foundation and Get Our Priorities Straight 2.1
-[X] Establish an infantry training school with annexed primary and secondary schooling
-[X] Establish an officer training school with annexed university
-[X] Establish an artillery school with technical tertiary school specializations (is better to call it an Ordnance school)
-[X] Reform the 1st Regiment into The Guard
-[X] Integrate the Army

Rationale:
  • We need to put the basis for our military cadre to implement more reforms, it doesn't matter if we have the best equipment and services if our officers and soldiers don't know how to use them best. This will also ease and streamline our modernization process as we have a more military and technologically savvy officer cadre to carry out our reforms.
  • The annexed schools will also raise literacy and reasoning capabilities among our ranks, increase the capacity of taking the initiative and maintain it. Plus, the morale of the ranks will increase and more people will join the armed forces as they will be able to exit the military with a comprehensive education that will help them in life after the service.
  • A broader artillery school will do similar things, but also expand the ability of the procurement service of designing and creating new tools. While also having useful employment in the civilian field, mainly infrastructural projects.
  • The monarchists are right about one thing, a parade ground-only unit needs to be reformed. (credits to @grimely for the idea) But, the monarchists will not tolerate calling it the Republican Guard, so better call it "The Guard". This will also get us some political support.
  • As @C_Z greatly argued:
    C_Z said:
    I'm avoiding "choose a single cartridge" or "modernize the [x] units" because IMO it's a mix of low priority or the options aren't that great yet. I'd really like to adopt a domestic pack/mountain howitzer, for example, but we can't do that right now (or better yet, a recoilless rifle due to the incredibly low weight, but again, nowhere near that point). Our rifle stocks are also so heavily biased towards the 6.5 mm Arisaka already that I don't think there's an urgent need to standardize.
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    But just in case I will tell that I'm more in favor of the 6.5mm Carcano:
    • Don't be tricked by the Carcano cartridge reputation, remember that the 6.5 Creedmore ballistic mimics the one of the Carcano. Plus, remember that the cartridge's poor accuracy reputation is given by the fact that post-war, the reproductions of the cartridges were sub-par and not built to proper specifications (.264 instead of the real caliber: .267).
    • Moreover, we can use a modernized version of the Carcano cartridge in assault rifles in the late stages of the quest, it's a universal cartridge: if we choose a spitzer version of that, we will not have to switch cartridges anytime soon.
  • We currently have ethnically segregated units that aren't even permitted their own officers. That has to change. (credits to @grimely for the idea)
  • Doing anything before laying these bases will prejudicate and make more difficult any future development.
 
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ILSergenteSalv said:
What do you mean?

Plus, I have a better idea for my plan:

[X]Plan: Lay The Foundation and Get Our Priorities Straight 2.1
-[X] Establish an infantry training school with annexed primary and secondary schooling
-[X] Establish an officer training school with annexed university
-[X] Establish an artillery school with technical tertiary school specializations (is better to call it an Ordnance school)
-[X] Reform the 1st Regiment into The Guard
-[X] Integrate the Army

Rationale:
  • We need to put the basis for our military cadre to implement more reforms, it doesn't matter if we have the best equipment and services if our officers and soldiers don't know how to use them best. This will also ease and streamline our modernization process as we have a more military and technologically savvy officer cadre to carry out our reforms.
  • The annexed schools will also raise literacy and reasoning capabilities among our ranks, increase the capacity of taking the initiative and maintain it. Plus, the morale of the ranks will increase and more people will join the armed forces as they will be able to exit the military with a comprehensive education that will help them in life after the service.
  • A broader artillery school will do similar things, but also expand the ability of the procurement service of designing and creating new tools. While also having useful employment in the civilian field, mainly infrastructural projects.
  • The monarchists are right about one thing, a parade ground-only unit needs to be reformed. (credits to @grimely for the idea) But, the monarchists will not tolerate calling it the Republican Guard, so better call it "The Guard"
  • As @C_Z greatly argued:
    But I'm more in favor of the 6.5mm Carcano:
    • Don't be tricked by the Carcano cartridge reputation, remember that the 6.5 Creedmore ballistic mimics the one of the Carcano. Plus, remember that the cartridge's poor accuracy reputation is given by the fact that post-war, the reproductions of the cartridges were sub-par and not built to proper specifications (.264 instead of the real caliber: .267).
    • Moreover, we can use a modernized version of the Carcano cartridge in assault rifles in the late stages of the quest, it's a universal cartridge: if we choose a spitzer version of that, we will not have to switch cartridges anytime soon.
  • We currently have ethnically segregated units that aren't even permitted their own officers. That has to change. (credits to @grimely for the idea)
  • Doing anything before laying these bases will prejudicate and make more difficult any future development.
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This idea

Silversun17 said:
Edit: I've got a bit of a crazy idea for if we use the japanese bullet, what if we combo Howard carr's pan magazine desgin with the concept used in the Japnese type 11's hopper magazine system?
US681439A - Magazine-gun. - Google Patents
Carr's pan magazine got up to 310 round by stacking rounds vertically while the Type 11 LMG could feed rounds straight from a stripper clip. What I'm thinking is that we basicly make a pan magazine that we can load with 5 round stripper clips.
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I am very interested in integrating the military/militaries in the long term, but I absolutely think that is a huge political lift (and risk) in the short term. Most strong-institution-building measures like that (or a massive education system, or serious anti corruption campaigns) are high risk, high cost, high reward measures. If we were a rich, established country with a bunch of state capacity to fall back on, they'd be no-brainers, sure, because we could eat the costs. I don't think the Reewin military has that much support to work from yet.
 
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