The Last Daughter -- Dragon-Blooded Sorcery School Quest
- Thread starter Gazetteer
- Start date
- Fantasy
[X] Let Deiza take the lead
Give and take. Arguing it out doesnt always lead to a better ending if there's no desire to understand.
Give and take. Arguing it out doesnt always lead to a better ending if there's no desire to understand.
- Location
- Te Ika-a-Māui
- Pronouns
- She/Her
[X] Take the lead yourself
1337Procrast
Fire Emblem Enjoyer
- Location
- Australia
- Pronouns
- He/Him
[X] Take the lead yourself
Let Ambraea use her sword in an actual fight for once please.
Let Ambraea use her sword in an actual fight for once please.
Last edited:
Fayhem
Definitely not an escaped SCP
- Location
- At large
- Pronouns
- He/Him
This is maybe a little harsh considering it was Ambraea's emotions re: Deiza that caused her to disregard Deiza's quite evidently valid warning to let go of the rope, which is what ultimately landed us both down here. Deiza's definitely in the less sympathetic position both because she's not the protagonist and we've never seen her POV and because she's fairly consistently been the provocateur, but it's not like this is actually completely one-sided.
- Location
- Nova Scotia
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Ambraea just doesn't like her. She rubs her the wrong way. Part of this is just Deiza being very rude and abrasive, but it's also like... She's rude and abrasive in a way that bothers Ambraea a lot for like, "very buttoned up Dynast" reasons, if that makes sense.
Cetashwayo
Lord of Ten Thousand Years
- Location
- Across the Horizon
[X] Let Deiza take the lead
Curious to see where this'll go.
Curious to see where this'll go.
- Pronouns
- Reader
Let's be clear, it's not onesided since last year when Deiza start escalating after the snatch a book to demand Ambraea's attention backfired, but this is very much a Deiza maintained conflict. She's aware she sets ambraea off, and rather than try for any pretence of civility, she doubles down on behavior she knows triggers Ambraea.
Your also forgetting the part where Ambraea probably could have kept herself from falling if Deiza had just told her to let go instead of impulsively seizing her, without which ambraea might have listened to her suggestion. Both made mistakes, but it was the combination of their mistakes which sent them falling, not just Ambraea not listening to Deiza without hesitation.
We did see her Pov back in year two, when she pulled the book snatch. It hasn't changed my opinion any.
I can't entirely disagree. Deiza hasn't inspired me to cut her much slack yet, so I'm not being charitable. Although at the same time, nothing Deiza has ever done in-story would inspire split-second trust; the opposite, in fact. The stunt with stealing the book in the library could make someone think grabbing the line was her idea of another joke, and Deiza certainly didn't explain anything at the time. I would argue Ambraea's response was based on Deiza's past actions as much as Ambraea's emotions.
Fayhem
Definitely not an escaped SCP
- Location
- At large
- Pronouns
- He/Him
This is partly me playing devil's advocate here, but I don't think Ambraea's ever liked Deiza judging from her internal monologue, and I doubt Deiza would have been oblivious to that even before Ambraea started being more overt about it. And it's not as if Ambraea's ever engaged in any introspection about whether there's something she could be doing differently to get along better with Deiza. They both seem pretty stubbornly convinced that their behavior and attitude are completely fine and it is exclusively the other party who should think about doing something differently.
Oh, for sure. I'm not saying it's all on Ambraea either.
...You mean these two entire sentences, which don't even actually include any of Deiza's internal monologue?
It, uh, seems like a real stretch to call that "seeing Deiza's POV." This is a very (very) brief snippet of omniscient narration, not Deiza being an actual viewpoint character the way that (e.g.) Sola or Peony were in the latest interludes.
While Deiza's been very Deiza, engaging in actual sabotage on a shared project has not been in her idiom at any point, which is what telling Ambraea to let go of the line without a good fucking reason would have been. Deiza is also quite patently significantly more personally experienced with these kinds of beasties than Ambraea is, which is something Ambraea has actually acknowledged in her internal monologue (albeit with a tone of "oh, how odd and disturbing that she's so experienced" because she doesn't like her). So, thinking that a) Deiza probably wouldn't sabotage the project just for funsies and b) Deiza is probably better equipped to judge what constitutes potentially dangerous behavior from these critters than Ambraea, would actually both be reasonable conclusions for Ambraea to reach if the evidence were evaluated neutrally IMO.
Or in other words, to be honest IMO your post reads more like a demonstration of how prior social antagonism can create an emotional bias against evaluating somebody's current actions fairly than it does like a valid argument for Ambraea not having done that.
I'm not saying Ambraea doesn't have a preexisting dislike of Deiza that's coloring her decisionmaking. I'd just like to make the point Deiza's own actions make distrusting her a logically valid reaction as well, and that factor probably played a solid role in Ambraea's response.
Eh? How was that established? Actually, I could picture it, especially as she has a clear issue with Ambraea.
Last edited:
[X] Let Deiza take the lead
Cetashwayo
Lord of Ten Thousand Years
- Location
- Across the Horizon
Honestly, Ambraea strikes me as the type of person who could let her dislike of someone really come out in a coldness of interaction even she isn't fully aware of. We can see how she's not fully grasped how her changes have affected Peony's perception of her, for example. If that is pressing some pre-existing button of Deiza's we don't know about I can easily see that feeding into a deeper dislike.
- Pronouns
- Reader
I'm pretty sure Ambraea was more responding to the combination of Deiza suddenly grabbing her forcefully, as well as the shouted instructions she barely had time to process. Without someone she inherently dislikes and distrusts grabbing a hold of her without warning she might have been able to make a split second decision on the matter. As it was, Deiza distracted her as much as she warned her and the situation became untenable before she could focus her attention in either direction. Deiza's intentions were good, but her actions were counter productive.
Fayhem
Definitely not an escaped SCP
- Location
- At large
- Pronouns
- He/Him
I mean. Somebody being kinda rude in the past (and on one notable occasion very rude tbf) =/= "will sabotage a project they volunteered to be a part of, thoroughly alienating every single person involved (which would be what, three people besides Ambraea?), and which they have dedicated their whole day to, including already helping very thoroughly and tediously check over all the equipment to prevent anything going wrong, for no apparent motive beyond some nebulous assumption of pathological spite." That conclusion would be a real stretch to say the least, and it's not one I think you can really reach if you evaluate Deiza's actions from the perspective of a neutral party, as opposed to someone who has already decided they feel uncharitable towards Deiza.
Like. Maybe I'm overlooking something, but what has Deiza ever actually done to Ambraea besides try to talk to her while being very Deiza? There was that time where Deiza went objectively too far after one of her attempts got her a dressing-down from Ambraea and she overreacted (IIRC even Deiza seemed to recognize she'd crossed a line post facto, not that she could actually say it), but like. Even that was fairly clearly an unplanned escalation after an attempt to talk to Ambraea went wrong again, rather than a preplanned provocation.
Yeah, this is pretty much where I'm at thinking about their dynamic now. We have stuff from clear back in Year One of Ambraea's internal monologue looking at Deiza and doing the internal equivalent of sighing heavily and shaking her head when Deiza wasn't even actually interacting with us at all. If Ambraea was externalizing that more than she realized... well, from a certain point of view it would only be reasonable to start needling at her more to get her to just come out and say what her problem is already.
I don't think either Ambraea or Deiza have given serious thought to how the other party might be perceiving their conduct and attitude (outside of the "why are they being SO UNREASONABLE" impression they've each given off now), is kinda the vibe I get.
I mean. You say "inherently dislikes and distrusts" like that's some immutable fact of nature that Ambraea couldn't possibly help, but I don't really see how that's so.
To be clear, I'm not trying to argue that Deiza is some uwu woobie who has never done anything wrong in her whole life. I'm just trying to make the point that they are in fact both to blame, for their current situation and for the state of their relationship generally. And the fact that Ambraea's internal monologue doesn't seem to acknowledge that is evidence of a lack of self-reflection on that topic, not evidence that Ambraea hasn't herself done anything wrong or counterproductive in her whole life re: this situation.
"Being very Deiza" is a phrase you've used a few times, but I think "being a huge jerk" might be a more honest way to phrase it. Anyway, I base the possibility of her intentionally sabotaging the project based on a few factors.
1: She doesn't care if people don't like her, as evidenced by two different points of not-quite-actionable rudeness towards her teachers. She won't care if the other people on the project are pissed.
2: She doesn't consider/comprehend the consequences of her actions, as evidenced by the fact she somehow thought sneaking up on someone, semi-insulting them, and stealing a book was somehow going to start a pleasant conversation, I guess?
3: Deiza absolutely has a direct, specific problem with Ambraea, as evidenced by how she's gone out of her way to engage with Ambraea.
Now, is it likely she'd sabotage the project? Meh. Probably not. Is it possible? Given all the characterization we've had of her so far, sure, I'd say so. Maybe we just have a different reads on her based on the little we've seen to date. I'm looking forward to hearing Deiza finally just come out and actually say her piece someday.
- Pronouns
- Reader
Yes, Ambraea is naturally rubbed wrong by Deiza's specific attitude and mannerisms. Deiza exacerbating the issue over more than a year of pushing the rivalry with confrontations like the one that took place in the library has resulted in a distrust forming in Ambraea regarding Deiza's intensions in uncertain or unexpected situations.
I've already stated that the fall was both girls faults. Our disagreement seems to stem from the fact in your opinion Ambraea should have inherently trusted in Deiza's respect for project, when a lack of respect is precisely Ambraea's problem with Deiza. It is reasonable for Ambraea to not instantly trust a person she shares a relatively antagonistic relationship with the same way it's reasonable for Deiza to panic and grab Ambraea without thinking of how Ambraea might react to that, rather than simply cutting the line herself.
Neither of these girls had much time to think through there actions before things went south, leaving instinctive responses. Neither of them were going to make the ideal choice in this situation, and viewing things from an neutral viewpoint does not help clarify a situation in a story arc built around two characters antagonistic relationship.
- Location
- Nova Scotia
- Pronouns
- She/Her
This is an interesting point, and it's probably a neat opportunity to mention that like... Traditional Simendor sorcerous practices came from learning from and emulating the Court of Nameless Gods, "spirits of sand and shadow" who live in pleasure palaces hidden out in the middle of the desert and refused to submit to the authority of the Old Realm. So... One of their shaping rituals literally gives sorcerous power in exchange for refusing to submit or accept the influence of others, especially those who might claim authority over you.
Article: Unbroken Spirit: Like the rogue gods she emulates, the sorcerer draws power from opposing others' will. Once per scene, when she successfully asserts her Resolve against social influence or another effect, she gains (Integrity) sorcerous motes, which last until the scene ends. If the character she resisted had a higher Essence than her, she gains additional sorcerous motes equal to the difference in their Essence ratings.
Which is not necessarily a hatred of authority, but it does encourage a level of irreverence toward it.
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
[X] Let Deiza take the lead
Fayhem
Definitely not an escaped SCP
- Location
- At large
- Pronouns
- He/Him
I'm collapsing my response to these two into one, because it basically boils down to "yeah, I think at this point we just have different (possibly just slightly different, in most respects) takes based on the limited info we've gotten." So I think trying to hash it out further will probably have sharply declining marginal returns at this point.
I will certainly agree that I look forward to seeing Deiza and Ambraea just finally have an actual fucking conversation about... all this, without either of them either blowing up or just walking off. Which I think is how literally just about every interaction they've had has gone so far. But that chain has to break sometime, right? ...Right?
- Pronouns
- Reader
I don't know. It seems Deiza's sorcery literally runs in part off her refusal to submit or accept the influence of others, including Ambraea's expectations of basic courtesy and respect. At best I could see Deiza off handedly explaining this in the aftermath of the current battle too a too drained to muster any hatred Ambraea, but I don't see it changing anything. In the end, the fact that Deiza's family just chooses a path of sorcery that rewards and perhaps requires them to sacrifice relations with most of the realm, especially her mother, isn't going to draw much sympathy from Ambraea.
It's essential Deiza saying "I kind of can't change, not if I want to remain a Sorceress, so if we're going to get along, your going to have to". That's really the Crux of things. Deiza won't change, entirely refuses to, and most people just accept this, but Ambraea can't without just letting go of several core beliefs and mannerisms. Honestly I'd rather they just cut ties, end the rivalry, and go there separate ways, at least to the degree they can manage while both attending the same sorcery school.