GODSTAR - a Science Fantasy Civilization Quest

There is something that stops them: it is called the government. It is a federal consensus democracy that has never chained a hand behind its back to stop dealing with the rich; it's a pretty cool social tech, on the whole, and a vehicle by which we can use future social techs to respond to problems.
Unfortunately the merchants dominate said government and currency + control over newly emerging mass media will only strenghten that grip. So relying on the government to reign in the merchants when we know they already dominate said government is not going to work out in our favor. Especially not with a competing class of historians that control vital organs of our state including the military.
 
Unfortunately the merchants dominate said government and currency + control over newly emerging mass media will only strenghten that grip. So relying on the government to reign in the merchants when we know they already dominate said government is not going to work out in our favor. Especially not with a competing class of historians that control vital organs of our state including the military.

They are the most influential class in government but I don't think this is the same thing as no one else having influence on it. Especially if the quest does not abruptly and inexplicably shift from us voting on social techs to the merchants picking them for us.
 
you're even on my side of the vote here but this is so wild to me i can't not comment lol. no! it's so hard to make this work! this is just galt's gulch with some bonus teamsters, it's a fantasy that is prohibitively difficult logistically.

the last time in this game/society that one class tried to take power through a soft coup, every other class told them to fuck off with immediate mass action. i think this would go even worse for merchants than it did for the warriors.
Except even all other classes together can't tell merchants to fuck off because without merchants country is ruined and everyone starves with no food. That was my point in the last post. Every time goverment tryies to do anything to merchants they risk complete social colapse. And if they are forced to choose between that and some people being starved to death and even simpler not being sold what they need to continue their jobs then what will they choose? Again there is NOTHING stopping merchants from banding together and making those kind of demands and there is noone that can stop them then.

Thats why I want currency so much. After all if every one can be merchant then even if they band together and strike, others will simply take over. In this way it will ruin their monopoly and basicly disolve merchants as a class turning them into just a job.

Without currency merchants are neccesarry and no one can do anything to them, with it anyone can be a merchant so we can always tell the old ones to fuck off.
 
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First in real life that would be the case but hear merchants basiclly already own everything not state or guild owned. By creating currency we can eliminete merchant as a middle man and so slash their profits extremly. And while it will make acumulation a bit easier for mercahnts it will also make it easier for everyone else.

Well, no, private possessions explicitly still exist in our society and are still held by individuals so this paragraph isn't actually accurate. While it's true that the vast majority of private property is possesed either by some state structure or association of people in a common profession, but that would also account for the vast majority of nonpersonal property in rl historic that made this transition, This is in and of itself is not really a meaningful difference that would suggest a different outcome in this situation.

Second as far as I can tell berter worked only with relativly small amout of goods. But in our country we have magic, elecricity and many, many goods. If you want to make it real barter you'd need to establish relative price beetwen all or most of them. Like wheet to milk. Milk to cows. Cows to wheet. Rocks to cows. Rocks to wheet. Rocks to milk etc. You could simplify it to one good like everything to wheet... but then wheet becomes currency and you don't have barter. What that also means is that in barter you need to do at least x to the power two work while with currency you only need x work. It's massivly inneficient.

Well, no, barter still happened with large amounts of goods and even does in Godstar's pc society, the merchants wouldn't exist as a class if that didn't happen. Nor would a number of rl societies in history, actually. You are correct to note that this makes trading large numbers of diverse bulk goods easier then alternatives, and that ease is part of why the class that orchestrates this sort of stuff benefits so much and tends to use those benefits too expand their economic niche into other facets of society.

And lastly I admit your last point made me chuckle. I mean it was in a reply to what was basicly my joke but it took me completly by surprise. Good discusion skills :) . But to reply siriously I think it's not true becouse if it would help merchants they could easily implement it. Just pay people in coin and take coin back. Merchants own baiscaly all trades so they could easly do it. On top of that there is almost no reason people would reject curency. After all the only thing merchants have to say is "with this you can easily trade among each other without us taking profit" and at least half the socity would immidietly accept it. After all for them it's pure profit and most people don't really care about long term when there is profit. So af far as I can tell my explanation is massively more likely then yours.

I think you'd be surprised to the extent that human beings are capable of coming together and barring social changes that they believe will be detrimental to the classes the feel apart of. If every society wide decision had only short term profit as a motive, you would expect humanity humanity to build only randian hellstates rather the complex interwoven societies that have flourished where ever large enough groups of humans tend to congregate.

Merchant's attempting to force such a social change in lockstep concert against the wishes of society as a whole would not be as easy as youd suggest, considering that merchants are only able to trade things by dealing with the other members of society, aside from any state measures to force them to drop the issue.

And a starving merchants. After all merchants have to travel, make contacts, create family, provide for them, tech them, transport goods, hire workers all of which requires resorces to be spent. That's why I said trades basicly have to be profitable and can't be zero sum. And do you really belive merchants won't make at least a little profit on each trade that would at least allow them to expand their buisness and enable them to make more trades? As I said trades basically have to be profitable for merchants it just won't work any other way.

And even if 99% of merchants did like you said and take just enough that one percent would immiedietly expand their buisness above others and dominete the markets, becoming the most powerfull merchants and making most trades to make the most profit.

I think by zero sum Cassie is likely saying that such dealing should include both the cost of doing business and feeding themselves and dependents, like most professions in the league do.

There is something that stops them: it is called the government. It is a federal consensus democracy that has never chained a hand behind its back to stop dealing with the rich; it's a pretty cool social tech, on the whole, and a vehicle by which we can use future social techs to respond to problems.

While someone else has pointed out that merchants already have extremely outsized influence over the existing government, their precedent for economic factors that massively increase similar classes profits in modern democracies with strong regulation and robust redisribution programs helping facilitite gaining the political power to perform regulatory capture and end those programs of redistribution.

They are the most influential class in government but I don't think this is the same thing as no one else having influence on it. Especially if the quest does not abruptly and inexplicably shift from us voting on social techs to the merchants picking them for us.

I think it's worthwhile to point out that the same mechanisms of state control that would allow the government to impact the social effects of currency can also being wielded to blunt and manage the detriments new social tech might otherwise introduce to the merchant class.

Government is not merely a vehicle for which the other classes of societies seek redress against the wealthy. Plenty of times, it's also been used as a tool by the wealthy to facilitate their own gains as well, many times at the cost of other portions of society. I think it's fair to worry that introducing ways to more rapidly gain wealth along with ways to make it much easier and more efficient to covert that wealth into influence at a time when the class that most benefits from this is the most influential by far in government that theirs's a very sizeable chance that they are able to use this to greatly increase their influence over said government, then use that influence to pursue policies that entrench that position against disruptive social changes and aided them in gaining more power even at the expense of overs

It certainly wouldn't be the first time something like that happened, in real life or fiction.
 
Currently, isn't the merchants around a similar level of influence as the historians?

As far as gathering wealth, couldn't merchants be doing it without currency by using debt to buy less perishable items with value prior to the debt redistribution events?
 
Sorry about the quality but I'm on a phone and won't be able to post today anymore. Tl.dr.

What i meant was even if 99 take exacly enough the one percent that takes more will be able to grow their busness more ans so the most influencial merchants and most important ones will always be ones that accumulate wealth.

Second why would people think currency is bad. Remeber in your scenario merchants want currency if they tell people currency can anable them to trade and accumulate welth currency will be a good think for people and they will want it. There is no reason for anyone ic to think currency is bad.

Third what i meant with barter is that you need o much price of everything to everythin because otherwise if you compere everything to one thing then it becomes currency. And if you do that effor required to stabilize the market rises to the power to. As in multiplies by itself making it very inneficient.

And I don't have time anymore today sorry. Also thank you everyone for the debate. I at least fund it very fun :) .
 
[X] Plan: The War of Unification (compromise edition)

I have no idea why people are interested in wrecking our carefully preserved class balance just so we can have capitalism.
 
[X] Plan: The War of Unification (compromise edition)

I have no idea why people are interested in wrecking our carefully preserved class balance just so we can have capitalism.
Currency will likely to lead to expansion of markets but markets and capitalism are two separate things. Thank you for your vote though! I hope we can still win this thing. Yep.
 
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Currency will likely to lead to expansion of markets but markets and capitalism are two separate things. Thank you for your vote though! I hope we can still win this thing. Yep.
Currency allows for the process of unchecked accumulation that eventually leads to capitalism. Accumulating massive, society warping amounts of wealth is much, much harder when you can't stack it in neat piles forever.
 
Currency allows for the process of unchecked accumulation that eventually leads to capitalism. Accumulating massive, society warping amounts of wealth is much, much harder when you can't stack it in neat piles forever.
Well, currency far predates the domination of merchants. I mean, currency in Rome didn't keep the aristocracy and rich landowners from being above the merchants. Money didn't protect the Templar order when the king of france decided to wipe his debt. And other things. Currency is but one factor in a very complicated web. Made more so by just how different our society is.
 
As far as gathering wealth, couldn't merchants be doing it without currency by using debt to buy less perishable items with value prior to the debt redistribution events?

Yes, and from all appearances they already do that. When we're talking about problems though, I think it's fair to acknowledge that the degree of the problem can often have as much impact as it existing all. "This might make a existing negative worse' isn't necessarily a meaningless criticism just because the negative already exists.
 
Well, currency far predates the domination of merchants. I mean, currency in Rome didn't keep the aristocracy and rich landowners from being above the merchants. Money didn't protect the Templar order when the king of france decided to wipe his debt. And other things. Currency is but one factor in a very complicated web. Made more so by just how different our society is.
Both of those societies were absolutely warped by the power of currency though. It is simply much, much easier to accumulate wealth and to leverage that wealth for power when you have currency.
 
Actually it changes everything. After all when everyone is a merchant then no one is. And that is my point. By taking currency we basically dismantle political power of the merchant class turning it from a class to just a job.

But not everyone will be a merchant?

Most people won't have the capital to even get started. Even among those who have the means to try, most won't succeed, and those who do will be networking with the old merchant class who already have the starting advantage of their networks. You might get some new blood but that's still going to be a coherent class with the money and connections to trade.
 
But not everyone will be a merchant?

Most people won't have the capital to even get started. Even among those who have the means to try, most won't succeed, and those who do will be networking with the old merchant class who already have the starting advantage of their networks. You might get some new blood but that's still going to be a coherent class with the money and connections to trade.

This is a huge set of assumptions, really. Who says they won't have the capital to get started? Maybe that'll be provided inherently, either through the government or just various other social structures providing it? Who says the merchants won't share their networks?

Like, this inherently assumes several things about the society and how it will react to currency that I'm not at all sure are warranted given what we know of the True People's social institutions.
 
This is a huge set of assumptions, really. Who says they won't have the capital to get started? Maybe that'll be provided inherently, either through the government or just various other social structures providing it? Who says the merchants won't share their networks?

Like, this inherently assumes several things about the society and how it will react to currency that I'm not at all sure are warranted given what we know of the True People's social institutions.

The mechanisms for governments or various other structures to give lower classes class mobility, or for merchants to share their network of contacts with anyone willing to try their shot already exist, yet thats not what happens in the league and you've failed to establish why currency would change this.

Ultimately, nyvis and other people have suggesting that merchants will continue to do the things they've already done. That being accumulate and concentrate while using said capital to further their already influence of the government for their benefit.

I think it's fair to be skeptical of the insistence that the adoption of currency will change merchant behavior when you proposed a mechanism or motive for why this change would do so.
 
This is a huge set of assumptions, really. Who says they won't have the capital to get started? Maybe that'll be provided inherently, either through the government or just various other social structures providing it? Who says the merchants won't share their networks?

Like, this inherently assumes several things about the society and how it will react to currency that I'm not at all sure are warranted given what we know of the True People's social institutions.

But none of this really make those new rising merchants an answer to the issue with the old ones, even assuming they get the support to displace them.
 
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