CTRosen
Rock Man
- Location
- Northwest PA
- Pronouns
- He/Him
I think Hugh's definitely looks better in terms of self-pres votes since just before that point the votes were much closer at 4-3. Agree that Shalmoa's is a bit weird looking back at it some more, but not something that I think is explicitly scummy or out of the ordinary just yet.
Yeah sorry again .
And for my vote , I went for null to get away from a accidental hammer and then didn't look into the thread after my last post because of a distraction .
And then it was a case of "shit 5 minutes to read half the thread " Which was enough for reading the votes but not enough for a deeper feeling there .
In regards to the flip both being called out as accurate information wise means that the output of the action is correct so the question would be if the difference is in the input , ie night versus day or something else.
Because one thing that throws me off there is that the night kill , unless I am blind has no mafia kill flavour/colour.
Which could be because of a cultural clash , or because the elimination has a hidden factor .
And for my vote , I went for null to get away from a accidental hammer and then didn't look into the thread after my last post because of a distraction .
And then it was a case of "shit 5 minutes to read half the thread " Which was enough for reading the votes but not enough for a deeper feeling there .
In regards to the flip both being called out as accurate information wise means that the output of the action is correct so the question would be if the difference is in the input , ie night versus day or something else.
Because one thing that throws me off there is that the night kill , unless I am blind has no mafia kill flavour/colour.
Which could be because of a cultural clash , or because the elimination has a hidden factor .
Zone Q11
Monochrome Plebeian
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
IIRC, there was no N0, so it shouldn't have been a night action. If the cause of the lack of Shadell's role flip was external and not by Shadell herself, then it should be a day action.
Where I come from, having no flavor on the cause of death is normal, so it's probably a culture clash indeed.
Moving on: Over 48 hours has passed since D1 ended. Did you read the game in that meantime? If so, what are your thoughts on EOD and D1 in general?
- Location
- Somewhere!
- Pronouns
- She/Her
I wonder how much of the Shadell vote was her not defending herself, how much was people wanting a clear lead in the end, but...
The progression on it looks weird to me. Zone Q11, I think, I am more likely to read as related to the fact that Shadell had just said she wanted to push him rather than a larger case, but self defense votes are fairly understandable. (I'm less sure how to feel about the vote staying there after #330, but that's still self defense against pressure to some extent.)
Nictis sheeps Q11 basically no the basis of having a town read, I guess, and not being available for EoD. This feels like a kind of normal Nictis play, not indicative of anything either direction really.
-Rosen's move to the wagon is less clear to me - as Shalmoa summarizes, the post mentions there not being further development on that case but there's no particular reason to be more suspicious of Shadell than Zone based on it, that I can see?
From that point, the wagon basically gets piled onto without cases or evidence, because end of day fire drill stuff. I do not like Hugh's post about this, at least in that admitting you're null on someone and voting them seems like bad form, but maybe that's me? At a 3 vote tie though, there's a case for self defense, so sure.
Kingster's vote mentions the recent talk about Shadell being enough to put his vote there, but... I'm not really sure what talk. Other than the voting, there is not a lot of case building going on around this time.
Shalmoa's 406 is also pretty content less for my tastes, and... there wasn't a lot of people voting Shalmoa at the time? The self preservation argument is weak. Based on 377 I think you can argue Shalmoa was spooked about being voted leading into this whole thing, still, but...
I have basically the same thoughts I did EoD, even after rereading this fairly closely. Q11 starts off a wagon, mostly on the basis of a minor self preservation thing, and... a lot of people pile onto it without explaining reasoning or without any sort of obvious scum tell or larger case from earlier in the day? I'm still not seeing a natural progression when I look from around that point onwards.
The progression on it looks weird to me. Zone Q11, I think, I am more likely to read as related to the fact that Shadell had just said she wanted to push him rather than a larger case, but self defense votes are fairly understandable. (I'm less sure how to feel about the vote staying there after #330, but that's still self defense against pressure to some extent.)
Nictis sheeps Q11 basically no the basis of having a town read, I guess, and not being available for EoD. This feels like a kind of normal Nictis play, not indicative of anything either direction really.
-Rosen's move to the wagon is less clear to me - as Shalmoa summarizes, the post mentions there not being further development on that case but there's no particular reason to be more suspicious of Shadell than Zone based on it, that I can see?
From that point, the wagon basically gets piled onto without cases or evidence, because end of day fire drill stuff. I do not like Hugh's post about this, at least in that admitting you're null on someone and voting them seems like bad form, but maybe that's me? At a 3 vote tie though, there's a case for self defense, so sure.
Kingster's vote mentions the recent talk about Shadell being enough to put his vote there, but... I'm not really sure what talk. Other than the voting, there is not a lot of case building going on around this time.
Shalmoa's 406 is also pretty content less for my tastes, and... there wasn't a lot of people voting Shalmoa at the time? The self preservation argument is weak. Based on 377 I think you can argue Shalmoa was spooked about being voted leading into this whole thing, still, but...
I have basically the same thoughts I did EoD, even after rereading this fairly closely. Q11 starts off a wagon, mostly on the basis of a minor self preservation thing, and... a lot of people pile onto it without explaining reasoning or without any sort of obvious scum tell or larger case from earlier in the day? I'm still not seeing a natural progression when I look from around that point onwards.
- Location
- PA
*Shrugs* the shadell wagon was…Not quite out of nowhere?
Shad HAD said some things that felt odd or at least leaning against the flow of where Town was headed a few times from what I saw, but I'll need a re-read to be sure of which posts it was.
Even still, the fire drilling was quite the surprise for me…
Shad HAD said some things that felt odd or at least leaning against the flow of where Town was headed a few times from what I saw, but I'll need a re-read to be sure of which posts it was.
Even still, the fire drilling was quite the surprise for me…
- Pronouns
- He/Him
I'm not sure what to say here? Does me voting for Shadell seems to come out of nowhere? Sine the beginning that I was asked regarding the wagon of the Hammer(I think it was Rosen?) I said that I suspected Shadell, but Shalmoa seemed more Sus to me so I voted for them, Shadell stayed low in my sus radar, but she was still there. During the duration of the day, there were some comments regarding Shadell that made me sus her (I don't remember them from the top of my head but later I could loom for them), I still think that we should try to vote someone on day 1 and with my suspicious regarding Shadell I decided to vote for her. Is that weird? As Zaealix said, the wagon didn't came out of nowhere, ti was already "there" so to say for what I understand. Or am I missing something?
When you say this you mean that Hugh can be killed right now? Or that he has the capacity to kill someone right now because of his actions/abilities? Just to clarify.
Cyricubed
Residant Bird.
- Location
- United States
- Pronouns
- He/Him/Birb
[X] Vote Nictis
How many times has this rabbit hole not been dealt with?
Mischaracterized slightly, I didn't have enough time to draw inferences from what was going on and it was confused/hectic as all hell. I did go with my previous read.
This being said I think two things need analyzed in particular.
1- The Shadell push and transition from alternate wagons which I believe are still quite viable
2- Reasonings Scum! kill OriginalName N1.
after I did my review I found Ori to be an unlikely kill target given the relatively good voice possibly attracting protectives or watchers so I was surprised to see them go down. Particularly I think they have a very productive D1 with good reads, now that I could go over everything without additional added I enjoyed their content.
now then, looking at some things everyone is rather off the table and here there wishy-washy. People started picking up a lot as Q11 started getting into the swing of things and adjusting, the attention also shifted around that time so I think it's arguable that would be the best review spot moving forward wagonomics wise.
Our second wagon option that day was Hugh, which Shadell flipping town doesn't score any town points for honestly comes out looking marginally neutral as far as shifting any reads of them. I think hugh is still worthwhile to view as a scumread atm, as I don't think their defense post earlier had been particularly compelling yet. But I also don't want to fall into the trap of D1 Electric Bugaloo for today.
More reads to come as I take a step through IH's posts again meanwhile lets get some talking going
@Nictis give me two votes from yesterday that don't sit well with you and why please
@Kingster why do you believe Ori was killed? (Also kill capable generally refers to them being able to perform a kill action of sorts)
@-Rosen given that self-pres is generally NAI from my pov is there anything else that pings you for Hugh and in addition can you level some thoughts about nemo for me?
- Pronouns
- Any
busy working on applications. will have more time in a couple of days
CTRosen
Rock Man
- Location
- Northwest PA
- Pronouns
- He/Him
I'll get back to you on Hugh stuff as I still need to go back further on that front. For Nemo, judging only by her evaluation of my vote (again, need to go back further for context on others), it seems like she's looking at posts with votes in a vacuum to come to the conclusion of "this vote does not provide any content," where that is simply not the case (see #360). Not a fan at a glance but I'm not sure if this is a consistent indicator for Nemo.
CTRosen
Rock Man
- Location
- Northwest PA
- Pronouns
- He/Him
I can see now that Nemo's post hones in more on Shalmoa's vote log, so I can see where context can be lost there. Still want to go back to check on the other votes though since it indicates to me that a closer read was not conducted on her part.
Nictis
Best Sidekick
- Location
- Ninja Dave's Cookies
- Pronouns
- Any
Alright, making a vote log to help me keep track of where I am in rereading.
[x] Vote Shalmoa
I looked at your hypothetical N0 copping post again.
Not really a fan of how Rosen had stated the elimination pool being within like 5 people near the start of the Day, but didn't actually do any investigating of those people.
Really not a fan of Shalmoa's post here. Or the post here.
Gonna ask Shalmoa a question before I post this. But right now I kinda feel like just writing Shalmoa off as an Executioner.
Shalmoa hasn't responded and I can't focus to finish catching up... so eh.
Day 1 Votelog
Shalmoa: Null (13)->Rosen (1) Initial Meme Vote.
Nictis: Null (12)->Rosen (2) Initial Meme Vote.
Zaealix: Null (11)->Rosen (3) Initial Meme Vote.
Scia: Null (10)->Rosen (4) Claimed accidental sheeping. Not the first time it's happened with Scia, probably not the last.
Kingster: Null (9)->Shalmoa (1) Countering the Rosen train by voting the initial member.
Shadell: Null (8)->Rosen (5) Later followup to the Rosen vote. Stated to have not realized it was a Hammer game later on. Probably true.
Shalmoa: Rosen (4)->Null (9) Reaction to the GM posting the vote log, pointed out that Scia had a sheep vote down.
Boohoo: Null (8)->Rosen (5) Naked vote, notably later than the rest by a good margin of time. Slot is currently Seven.
Hugh: Null (7)->Kingster (1) Welcome to SV meme vote.
Scia: Rosen (4)->Null (8) Reducing hammer. Credit where it's due, this is her next post. I don't believe she cast a vote at all after this though.
Zaealix: Rosen (3)->Null (9) Post feels weird. Doesn't quite have the Zaealix vibe. Most likely one I'd point at and say was following the wave to fit in, but no posts between the vote and the null so I can't really say much definitively. Feels like it's following the crowd though, and I'm not happy about all the nulls.
Nictis: Rosen (2)->Zaealix (1) Don't entirely remember why, but what I stated was that I was disappointed in the lack of reaction the bandwagon on Rosen pulled from the thread, then I voted Zaealix as pressure.
Legend Of Ruina: Null (8)->Hugh (1) Explicitly a meme vote
Hugh: Kingster (0)->Boohoo (1) For being an additional vote on Rosen after it was made apparent that Rosen was reaching Hammer area.
Hugh: Boohoo (0)-> Null (9) Boohoo responded by saying she doesn't know what she's doing.
Nictis: Zaealix (0)-> Cyricubed (1) Cyricubed replaced Ruina. It's tradition, I think.
Nictis: Cyricubed (0)-> Hugh (2) Voting for the "I'm a Godfather" response.
Rosen: Null (8)-> OriginalName (1) Didn't like Ori's response to the Nemo question being to shade Shalmoa over it.
Shalmoa: Null (13)->Rosen (1) Initial Meme Vote.
Nictis: Null (12)->Rosen (2) Initial Meme Vote.
Zaealix: Null (11)->Rosen (3) Initial Meme Vote.
Scia: Null (10)->Rosen (4) Claimed accidental sheeping. Not the first time it's happened with Scia, probably not the last.
Kingster: Null (9)->Shalmoa (1) Countering the Rosen train by voting the initial member.
Shadell: Null (8)->Rosen (5) Later followup to the Rosen vote. Stated to have not realized it was a Hammer game later on. Probably true.
Shalmoa: Rosen (4)->Null (9) Reaction to the GM posting the vote log, pointed out that Scia had a sheep vote down.
Boohoo: Null (8)->Rosen (5) Naked vote, notably later than the rest by a good margin of time. Slot is currently Seven.
Hugh: Null (7)->Kingster (1) Welcome to SV meme vote.
Scia: Rosen (4)->Null (8) Reducing hammer. Credit where it's due, this is her next post. I don't believe she cast a vote at all after this though.
Zaealix: Rosen (3)->Null (9) Post feels weird. Doesn't quite have the Zaealix vibe. Most likely one I'd point at and say was following the wave to fit in, but no posts between the vote and the null so I can't really say much definitively. Feels like it's following the crowd though, and I'm not happy about all the nulls.
Nictis: Rosen (2)->Zaealix (1) Don't entirely remember why, but what I stated was that I was disappointed in the lack of reaction the bandwagon on Rosen pulled from the thread, then I voted Zaealix as pressure.
Legend Of Ruina: Null (8)->Hugh (1) Explicitly a meme vote
Hugh: Kingster (0)->Boohoo (1) For being an additional vote on Rosen after it was made apparent that Rosen was reaching Hammer area.
Hugh: Boohoo (0)-> Null (9) Boohoo responded by saying she doesn't know what she's doing.
Nictis: Zaealix (0)-> Cyricubed (1) Cyricubed replaced Ruina. It's tradition, I think.
Nictis: Cyricubed (0)-> Hugh (2) Voting for the "I'm a Godfather" response.
Rosen: Null (8)-> OriginalName (1) Didn't like Ori's response to the Nemo question being to shade Shalmoa over it.
[x] Vote Shalmoa
I looked at your hypothetical N0 copping post again.
Not really a fan of how Rosen had stated the elimination pool being within like 5 people near the start of the Day, but didn't actually do any investigating of those people.
Really not a fan of Shalmoa's post here. Or the post here.
Gonna ask Shalmoa a question before I post this. But right now I kinda feel like just writing Shalmoa off as an Executioner.
Shalmoa hasn't responded and I can't focus to finish catching up... so eh.
Nictis
Best Sidekick
- Location
- Ninja Dave's Cookies
- Pronouns
- Any
I can actually explain this one. This was the requirement for the legacy post:
I also made like two or three different reads posts Day 1.
And the culture clash was more aimed at a day janitor , or mafia having something that leads to their kills being louder there, or give out information versus a kill done via voting .
Furthermore we can not be assured that this was a mafia kill , but until we get information about a kill elsewhere not appearing ,.
Which is NOT a call for a reveal but I want to keep it in mind for later
Or a double kill during a night it is easier as a razor to assume it being mafia .
I feel that on a reread the pivot to shadel feels not quite as meaty as it should be considering the way that arguments where manly focussed on the shalmoa/hugh part there .
So my gut feel on seeing it now feels more like a vote that was done to evade voting for those two , which is based on the way 5hat the vote developed , not on a reading of either of their actions there .
Also considering the way that you where active on d1 compared to now kind of feels like you where trying to be loud enough to get a reputation .
But as noted culture clashing etc , especially as j am normally a poster that starts more of her effective reads during d2.5 to d3
hugh_donnetono
No use to complain
- Location
- Caught Out In The Rain
It was 3-3 before I voted, actually. I was the fourth.
So are you saying I should've stuck to my guns even once we reached t minus 4 minutes before eod and nobody was swapping away from me, or are you saying I should've lied and said that actually I did like the Shadell wagon and would choose to vote on it without being under duress? Should I get out the Oberon avatar again? 😂
Zone Q11
Monochrome Plebeian
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
Oh. I have this post on my backlog. Let me comment about this for a moment:
For the record, I did not specify Role Cop; I was directing my post towards any investigative roles.
I don't exactly know what's up with people and not liking me saying that people should do this and that, but I don't have an investigative ability, so I want people who actually have those abilities to do them for me, assuming they are cooperative and don't know whom to investigate. If people think this is scummy, then so be it, but I won't stop doing it since these are part of my reads and essentially my legacy.
Zone Q11
Monochrome Plebeian
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
I would like for you to find those comments. I don't recall many other than Rosen's arguments to vote Shadell.
As for your vote towards Shadell: Yes, it does seem like it came out of nowhere. Throughout the entirety of D1, you only mentioned Shadell twice. First was at P#155, when you were reviewing the people who voted Rosen. In this post, you essentially hedged on Shadell. Second was at P#174, when you answered Shalmoa that if you had to choose between Shadell/hugh/Nemo, you would've voted Shadell because she was "in your suspicious list". There was literally zero progression between these two posts, but when you parked your vote after talking with me at P#308, you switched your vote from Shalmoa (whose wagon was dropping at that point in time) to hugh which is essentially bandwagonning for no reason.
The wagon on Shadell was indeed already formed by the time Nictis and Rosen voted Shadell, and hugh's self-pres vote is reasonable, but your vote -which was suspiciously posted minutes after hugh's vote- feels off. You say hugh's recent posts at theat point in time dissuaded you from voting him, but I don't see any "towny posts" coming from hugh in Page 16. Which posts were you referring to? To me, it feels like you joined hugh's wagon when everyone else did it, and joined Shadell's wagon when everyone else did it again.
- Location
- Somewhere!
- Pronouns
- She/Her
That's kinda where I'm coming down - your vote was quite possibly what tipped the wagon to succeeding, which at the time was probably necessary for you to survive. But that only really makes it understandable, not necessarily good or town sided? It just does feel like... a weirdly honest thing to admit there. I might have kept it to just saying self preservation with the wagon at that point.
Play that close to EoD is pretty messy though and no one's vote positions that late are going to have time to be fully reasoned, so I also don't know how much I can analyze it though. The write up is about what I have and pressing anything further seems unhelpful.
That's a good cite and I think I missed that - I feel a lot better about the vote in that context.
Zone Q11
Monochrome Plebeian
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
The thought of Day Janitor also confuses me, considering it is not a role I often encounter. Still, if the cause of Shadell's flip is not because of her own role, then it would be sensible to assume that an external role did it, and as far as that goes, Day Janitor would make the most sense.
"Once you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth." - Sherlock Homes"
No offense, but I literally don't see the point in "looking into what happened N1". Occam's Razor just tells me that mafia killed Ori; no need to think further. What would even be the point in discussing this? (Aside from understanding each other's culture where one side is used to having night kills be given flavor, and the other side is used to having night kills be posted without flavor.)
I agree that Shalmoa and hugh should be looked at today, but I would also like to look at Kingster because of the points I mentioned recently.
I don't exactly understand what you mean by "I was more active on D1 compared to now"; I naturally talk more when other people are talking. I do agree that I am naturally loud whenever people are around, though I know a couple other people who post way more content than I do. FMPOV, I am "moderately active".
As for reputation, I don't understand what you meant either. Do you perhaps mean "thread presence"? In games like these, there is "thread control" and "thread presence", and uh... Yeah, NGL, I want both in this game. I can't exactly help it; I already have thread presence simply by talking, and I crave thread control when there is no "town leader" in the game. (Basically reminds me of my homesite.)
CTRosen
Rock Man
- Location
- Northwest PA
- Pronouns
- He/Him
You'll find that a lot of people prefer the better infosec from not directing actions here -- there are certainly cases where direction is warranted or outright required for mechanical purposes, but usually this kind of suggestion will not be received warmly so early in the game.
- Location
- Earth
Ugh. Phrased that way, I'd be inclined to be pretty skeptical of it. After somehow surviving the night and with Ori being the elimination instead, I'm inclined to discard my D1 reads and try somewhere else for today.
Was busy RL, please continue regularly scheduled questioning.
CTRosen
Rock Man
- Location
- Northwest PA
- Pronouns
- He/Him
I think if this route is to be taken then Shalmoa's self-pres vote is far more AI than Hugh's could ever be. Shadell's wagon was already taking off by the time Shalmoa switched so I feel a lot worse about that compared to Hugh's which seems largely NAI as a standard self-pres.
- Location
- Earth
You can't tell me that I should trust votes before time is called when the difference is still small enough for the scum team to make it happen. That would just be a bald-faced lie.
You can tell me that maybe letting the scum team have their preference would be more informative in hindsight, and I'd actually somewhat believe you and would be inclined to take advantage of that if it weren't for the part where it was me as the other wagon.
However, I have no intention of regretting #406 as an anti-shenanigans and self-pres vote, and while it may not have been a wise townie move I do not believe it advanced a scum agendas when and how it was placed.
But yeah, I would agree that hugh voting to self-pres is NAI. hugh considering not voting to self-pres at first to pressure me to claim? That's more interesting to me.