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GODSTAR - a Science Fantasy Civilization Quest

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DeadmanwalkingXI said:
In the very short term, maybe. In the long term, once the rebels have won is a very different story.
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I don't think we are gonna adversite that we gave a bunch of mil support to the rebels and that assuming they win when we are strengthin them through trade. Unrelated this is also establishing that our merchant class is okay with trading with slavers
 
Woltaire said:
I don't think we are gonna adversite that we gave a bunch of mil support to the rebels and that assuming they win when we are strengthin them through trade. Unrelated this is also establishing that our merchant class is okay with trading with slavers
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I mean, I suspect the rebels will advertise that we helped them when and if they win. Thanking their friends is a good way to build their tied with us, which a fledgling nation will need. This becomes even more true if we need to actively intervene later to help them win.
 
[X] Plan: Go Fuck Yourself
-[X] Military Support for Rebels
You will begin funneling support to the rebels in the League of Strength's territory, including weapons, supplies, and military training. May lead to war with the League of Strength.
-[X] Trade Embargo
Your people find the League of Strength's large-scale use of enslaved labor abhorrent. Your merchants will refuse to trade with the League of Strength as long as their goods are made using slave labor.
 
[X] Plan Realpolitik
-[X] Mutual Defense Pact
-[X] Trade Embargo

The whole reason we decided to approach the League of Strength in the first place was because we aren't strong enough to beat the Machine Army on our own. If an alliance with the League was impossible why did we choose them over Five Shields? We already knew the LoS was a society of militant slavers.
 
etranger01 said:
Cosmic Energy: Thoughts on Stellar Rays, Leylines, and Their Implications
by Juri Night-Wanderer, Order of the Star-Gazers
transcribed by Nelo Ink-Fingers

Introduction
There is much wisdom in the celestial bodies. This is well-known to my Order. However, as with all wisdom, there is apparent wisdom and there is hidden wisdom. Apparent wisdom is straightforward to discover with the application of cleverness and thought: there are celestial bodies, these bodies have influence over events and circumstances, that influence is observable and even somewhat quantifiable. These are profound pieces of knowledge. However, despite their magnitude, much remains hidden about the nature of the celestial bodies and the forces they exert. To begin to uncover that hidden knowledge, we must step back from that which is straightforward and enter into a different realm: that of speculation. By speculating on that which is not straightforward, which is not immediately observable, we lay the path for future discovery. Such informed speculation is a valuable undertaking. Therefore, this work is my speculation on the ways by which the celestial bodies exert their influence.

To engage in this speculation, I have endeavored to step outside my Order's traditional focus and immerse myself in the esoterica of leylines and the networks they form by their interactions. Some speculation has already been done on the influence of the constellations on the leyline networks and it is useful speculation indeed. I wish to expand upon that.

My speculation follows.

On the Nature of Paradisea
The Daystar is an emitter of prodigious magical energy. Like a great river, its power rushes toward us and engulfs us. Unlike a rock in the river, we do not simply divert the flow of the river, but rather absorb it, at least in part. It flows both around and through us. We also receive energy from other celestial bodies, the Moon foremost among them, as the Daystar's energy is deflected off of them and onto us. These lesser streams influence the character of the energy flowing across Paradisea; that is how the Moon encourages acquisition of knowledge and the Warstar creates conflict. We are therefore directly influenced by the character of the magical energy that surrounds us.

Focused as we were on the stars, we did not stop to consider the implications in our own home. If the other celestial bodies alter the properties of the Daystar's energy, then it naturally follows that the celestial body on which we reside does likewise. Energy may descend from the Daystar, but it flows through the ground beneath our feet, and there it changes. Something must be doing the changing.

What if that something is a spirit? Not a spirit of the land or the water, but a world-spirit, Paradisea Herself, located somewhere deep within the earth? If not a spirit, then perhaps some kind of force or object, acting as a lens and gate through which the energy flows? It is impossible to say for certain, but I believe that some of the answers to the stars lay not out in the cosmos, but beneath our very feet.

On the Possibility of a Cosmic Network
It is known among those who study leylines that energy flows are diverted, attracted, and altered by the presence of natural landmarks and that they can be consciously altered by the creation of artificial landmarks through the use of sacred architecture. If the Daystar emits energy in the same manner as energy flows through the leylines, then it follows that the Daystar, a great sphere, does not merely pour its energy haphazardly or uniformly into the cosmos.

Instead, what this suggests is that the energy emitted by the Daystar is attracted to the other celestial bodies, that such energy forms currents through the cosmos. The light of the Daystar is attracted to the Moon; thereafter, the energy is transmuted by the Moon and sent in streams to other celestial bodies, perhaps even back to the Daystar itself. If indeed constellations are made up of other Daystar-like bodies, then this cosmic network need not be restricted to our surroundings alone. It could be impossibly vast, flowing out through as many celestial bodies as there are lights in the sky. More study of this possibility may lead to answers regarding the quantifiable nature of cosmic energy.

On Changing the Nature of Energy
Our illusionists are capable of warping light. This is a noble profession, allowing as it does for communication and night-banishing radiance, though perhaps a little less of the latter might be helpful for my Order. However, we have not yet fully explored the implications of our ability to bend light. If indeed the Daystar emits its cosmic energy in the form of light and heat, and that light is in turn altered by its interaction with celestial bodies, then it naturally follows that we should also be able to alter its properties with sufficient energy or, perhaps, a kind of monument. Indeed, magic itself must be the small-scale personal alteration of cosmic energy into different forms, and rituals a medium-scale version of the same.

Therefore, we should be able to alter not just the flow of energy but its nature on a much larger scale, using monuments and other sacred architecture, or shifting the location of existing natural landmarks. I cannot know the full implications of such a profound act of mystical engineering, however, so my speculation is limited and tempered with caution. It should only be explored with proper reverence and patience.

Conclusion
Thank you for reading my speculation. Effusive thanks to my colleagues who helped with this speculation. Their desire to remain anonymous, lest my speculation turn out to be catastrophically incorrect, does not diminish my gratitude for their efforts.
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In recognition of this work, have a boon:

Though it currently remains purely in the realm of the theoretical for now, this paper has inspired the field of Meta-Astrology. It is one thing to observe and calculate the positions of the stars from a single point in space, such as Paradisea. How do the positions of the planets look when one is standing on, say, the Moon instead? What relevance is it to people on the Warstar when Paradisea is ascendant? Are the effects of a conjunction between the Warstar and Paradisea different on the Wanderer than they are on the moons of the Pale Giant? This requires very complex modelling, beyond what your Historians are capable of, but Sanctuary's own astrologers have suggested that this field is foundational to maintaining interplanetary and interstellar civilizations.

The future cost of researching Meta-Astrology will be reduced.
 
WGDragoon said:
If an alliance with the League was impossible why did we choose them over Five Shields? We already knew the LoS was a society of militant slavers.
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We didn't, really. We knew they were militant, and we had vague suggestions they were more aristocratic and had some internal turmoil, but we didn't know about the slavery at all, much less that it had become so central to their economy and expansion cycle. That's why some of the people most into GFY right now wanted a military alliance last turn.
 
Potato Anarchy said:
We didn't, really. We knew they were militant, and we had vague suggestions they were more aristocratic and had some internal turmoil, but we didn't know about the slavery at all, much less that it had become so central to their economy and expansion cycle. That's why some of the people most into GFY right now wanted a military alliance last turn.
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What? We totally knew about the rampant slavery, it was literally the first and main thing we heard about them.

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ScottishMongol said:
A wind blew from the north, and it carried the scent of smoke and fear. Calling themselves the League of Strength, a number of warrior-tribes of the far north has embarked on a campaign of conquest. They seek no ransoms, for those they take captive are said to be made to labor in the workshops and mines. They seek no peace treaties, for the tribes they conquer are scattered or absorbed into the growing League. As their neighbors fall, messengers travel across the northern woods, making pacts of defense.
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Literally part of the first thing we heard about them.
 
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Yeah, I interpreted that less as "mass use of slave labor" and more as "rival warriors are stripped of status and used as slaves" with the rest of the tribe being 'scattered or absorbed.' It's a vague snippet that then doesn't get followed up on in subsequent rumors other than dissidents being sent to the mines during their unrest. Like, if you read that line and immediately assumed they had a massive slave labor force - good read! You were right. It's still both understandable and literally true that many voters did not.

People wanted to make a military pact with the LoS because we didn't anticipate this moral cost, and they seemed like a more powerful partner (and possible source of military techs) than the Five Shields, who have only existed for a turn and are fighting one war already. When we got a closer look and a bunch of information, minds changed. If you go back to last turn's debate no one's saying "well, the LoS are awful slaveholders but we'll hold our noses." We're talking about them being aristocrats and militarists.
 
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I'd taken it as slavery in all but name, and assumed they would only be getting worse/expanding the practice in the future. We also knew the LoS was in the middle of (and not doing too well in) a guerilla war in their new territory.

ScottishMongol said:
If the League of Strength thought their new members were a prize for their victory in the war against the Machine Army, they have found it a poisoned chalice. Riots in the cities against their forced acquisition led to heavy-handed reprisals which only earned the rebels more support. This was followed by a guerilla insurgency aided by the forest spirits. The League of Strength has attempted to use their greater military abilities to tighten their grip on the tribes, and to an extent they succeeded thanks to local collaborators and a military skilled in asymmetric warfare, but the lands to your north still smolder with rebellion.
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None of this stuff should be new information. It's new detail, but this stuff shouldn't be a surprise. I thought this stuff was obvious and assumed the reason everyone was voting for reaching out to the LoS was just an extension of how large a threat the Machine Army is.
 
There is a different between some slavery and a society built on slave labor. I'll willing to work with a place that does slaves because it can grow out of it but slavery is too entrenched in their culture for them to grow out of it. It needs to be burnt down so it can rebuild better.
 
Well, screw it. If we're going to risk war with the LoS then we should do so properly.

[X] Plan: Go Fuck Yourself
 
Jack727 said:
There is a different between some slavery and a society built on slave labor. I'll willing to work with a place that does slaves because it can grow out of it but slavery is too entrenched in their culture for them to grow out of it. It needs to be burnt down so it can rebuild better.
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I mean literally every society, culture and civilization practiced one type of slavery or another. It wasn't until industrialization and the enlightenment that we were finally able to ditch it.
 
There is a massive difference between industrial scale slavocracy that constantly needs to feed more people into the grinder and some ritualized tribal slavery with rules and ways to get out of it.

EBR said:
Well, screw it. If we're going to risk war with the LoS then we should do so properly.

[X] Plan: Go Fuck Yourself
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For me the decision is between accepting and trusting the LoS until the Machine Army is safely contained or seeking conflict now and rolling the dice.
 
Anchises said:
There is a massive difference between industrial scale slavocracy that constantly needs to feed more people into the grinder and some ritualized tribal slavery with rules and ways to get out of it.
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Yeah, the League of Strength is basically like if the Haudenosaunee transformed into the Late Roman Republic right now.
 
Jack727 said:
Aye question is will the culture be willing to move beyond it or try and defend it like the CSA.
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Yeah. Cause well...
It may be viewed as impractical, but don't underestimate someone's determination to make something work.
I mean, the situation with the Roma Gladiators IRL only deteriorated as far as it did because people were determined to make sure it was impossible to be elevated from slave status by surviving enough games. It's bad for business, but...
 
[X] Plan: Go Fuck Yourself

I'm not going to support slavers, and we can risk having a war with a state dealing with an internal rebellion at the same time while we have mildly better tech and magic levels.
 
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ScottishMongol said:
Yeah, the League of Strength is basically like if the Haudenosaunee transformed into the Late Roman Republic right now.
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Yeah I just can't trust them. They really fucked their society. Dependence on cheap slave labour is a hell of a drug.

They are going to be forced into endless expansion and once that ends they are likely to enter serious domestic trouble.

The fact that they are already in a pronlonged occupation quagmire that overlaps with flare-ups of broader domestic unrest is...uh. Let me just say that I don't think an alliance with them would be particular stable. Collapse or betraying us seems very likely.
 
yeastmobile said:
They have already entered the "Increasingly relying on debt slavery" stage so uhhhhhh
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As I said, they are stuck in a quagmire-occupation. Hypothetically they can still turn that around and resume regular expansion but collapse being an even bigger concern than betrayal in my post shows pretty clearly what I think about the health of their society.
 
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