Mackie was a Maus: A BattleTech design quest

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Aineko said:
There are 27.5 ton fusion engines. Check out the 370 light. It'd be rather difficult for us to roll it up, but it is possible. Somebody discussed it up-thread, might have been the QM.

I don't know why you're still talking about 50 ton fusion powered mechs.
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The 50 was an example, and i really don't want to rely on getting a light engine. Not only is it hard to get it will also be way more expensive to produce which may effect our budget but definitely affect when we try and mass produce it. If we get it sure thats nice and something to build on, but gunning for it seems like a waste of money when we can be focusing on other major issues.

EDIT

Ok So here is a draft plan. Something reasonable for Rebecca cause taking her off base is stupid and a flight risk. As for the Ettin, fix the lasers and targeting, i put 4 tries into both so that should be good, I really want to solidify the range boost, but that may push a budget overflow at this point so i just decided to eliminate the cowl and weak armor. Would be really nice to know where the table/target for success for engineering checks for quirks is, because it doesn't seem to be thread marked, but oh well.

[ ] Plan Smart & Practical v1

Rebecca
-[ ] Provide her with some general intersystem travel material, tourism/history/etc. Being who you are you should have some personal materials lying around, and it being personally yours should shoot down any belief that its fake. Hell throw in your dissertation will your at it, cause why not, its not like it will hurt. If possible, safely let her out of the dome (not the base, just the dome, and only with the right safety measures taken) on a clear night to see the sky. Also try and reachout to her on a personal level a bit more, maybe if you share more about yourself she will share more about herself beyond mechs?

-[ ] Continue working, with the Ettin
--[ ] Attempt to eliminate Poor targeting, short, Re-roll 4 times if necessary
--[ ] Attempt to eliminate Exposed weapon linkage (medium lasers), Re-roll 4 times if necessary
--[ ] Eliminate Cowl and Weak head armor (2).
 
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butchock said:
I dont like the idea of giving in to the alien's wishes. We are supposed to be loyal to our state and this is a security risk. Are we suffering from stockholm syndrome? Isnt that supposed to be the other way around?
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She is supposedly not a prisoner. The original vote was to bring her on board with various bribes and promises. Even if she doesn't remember it very well now, thanks to the combination of some serious heavy metal poisoning plus heavy-duty psychiatric meds, she had more liberty earlier on.

It just happens that the doctors say she's so hypersensitive to heavy metals that she should stay in a controlled environment all the time ... and then she's working on a high-security project in a base where everyone is supposed to get permission before exiting ... and her existence is sort of a state secret ... so "bird in a gilded cage" isn't far off right now.
 
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Gmerguy said:
Rebecca
-[ ] Provide her with some general intersystem travel material, tourism/history/etc. Being who you are you should have some personal materials lying around, and it being personally yours should shoot down any belief that its fake. Hell throw in your dissertation will your at it, cause why not, its not like it will hurt. If possible, safely let her out of the dome (not the base, just the dome, and only with the right safety measures taken) on a clear night to see the sky. Also try and reachout to her on a personal level a bit more, maybe if you share more about yourself she will share more about herself beyond mechs?
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Logically, our personal library should be pretty compelling - it's got to be way too much volume to realistically be made up considering our previous occupation. (Travel brochures and such less so, a moderately diabolical captor could synthesize quite a bit of those easily enough.) But it's also very laborious and bookish work to go through processing that, which is not my impression of Rebecca's style. So maybe not the best way to win her over.

I really like the idea of taking her out skywatching - it's a gesture, plus the impact of Nuzhup overhead hammering home certain astrophysical realities. And she's really not much of a security risk, who is she going to tell anything? She knows nobody in the entire solar system outside the Micky Mouse project. However...she's a bit of an impulsive woman of action. I would not want to put her in a position where she imagines she can hijack our vehicle and run for the starport - it won't work obviously since there's nowhere for her to go, but it would get us both in a lot of trouble.
 
Aineko said:
I really like the idea of taking her out skywatching - it's a gesture, plus the impact of Nuzhup overhead hammering home certain astrophysical realities. And she's really not much of a security risk, who is she going to tell anything? She knows nobody in the entire solar system outside the Micky Mouse project. However...she's a bit of an impulsive woman of action. I would not want to put her in a position where she imagines she can hijack our vehicle and run for the starport - it won't work obviously since there's nowhere for her to go, but it would get us both in a lot of trouble.
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We know that she isn't a security risk in the sense that she cannot escape the system and bring the Lyran's back, but she doesn't nor does she believe any information provided to her otherwise yet. So yes she is a flight risk, if a limited one, there is also the risk that one of the other nations is watching and may try and make a move, but thats unlikely IMO. The big issue is her health, she's on the pills for a reason, and taking her outside is a really risking her getting sick, which means we have to take her to medical in which the boss finds out we let her outside. Ergo, we only take her out if its safe and with reasonable percations. So like a respirator or something i guess.
 
Nukashuban aerofighters
  • Informational
    • Context for PROJECT BEAGLE, and also for the test pilots that you just adopted.
    Guardian Aerofighter (Standard Pattern Air Defense Unit Mark I)

    Mass: 28.5 tons (unloaded)
    Power Plant: 180 Fission
    Armor: Standard
    Armament:
    1 Large Laser
    Cost: 848,585 N-bills
    Battle Value: 280

    Overview
    The Guardian is a venerable design of conventional aerofighter that pre-dates the formation of the Federal Army, and was adopted as the Federal Standard Pattern Air Defense Unit Mark I following the formation of the Federal Army in its first standardization act.

    Capabilities
    The Guardian combines high conventional air-fighting speed with a single powerful axially-mounted large laser and a 1.5 ton aft modular pod for secondary equipment that can be swapped out on a per-mission basis. The most common modules in use on the Guardian are an electronics warfare suite, an active probe, an additional propellant tank, and an anti-missile system with a ton of ammunition. A rare optional module uses a pair of machine guns with half a ton of ammunition. In addition to the ton and a half modular unit, the Guardian also has five hardpoints on the underside of the chassis that can be used for standard bomb payloads.

    There are alternate-armor variants of the Guardian, neither one especially common. A stealth variant uses stealth armor, replacing the large laser with two heat sinks, four SRM tubes, and a ton of ammunition.

    Another variant increases the armor protection, using 3.5 tons of hardened armor. This reduces the internal fuel storage by 1.5 tons, making the use of the added modular fuel tank or drop tanks attached to external hardpoints for all but the shortest interception missions; it is also a difficult fighter to fly.

    A rare post-production refit adds a Chameleon Light Polarization System to the Guardian, exchanging the large laser for one heat sink, one medium laser, and four SRM tubes with one ton of SRM ammunition.

    Equipment Mass
    Engine
    180 Fission​
    12.5​
    Safe Thrust:
    6​
    Max Thrust:
    9​
    Structural Integrity:
    6​
    Heat Sinks:
    8​
    3​
    Fuel:
    480​
    3​
    Cockpit:
    3​
    Armor Factor:
    30​
    2​


    Armor
    Value
    Nose
    8​
    Wings
    8/8​
    Aft
    6​


    Weapons
    and Ammo​
    		 Location Tonnage Heat SRV MRV LRV ERV
    Large Laser
    NOS​
    5​
    		 8 8 8 0 0
    Modular equipment​
    AFT​
    1.5​
    Guardian II ("Angel") Aero
    Mass: 50 tons
    Power Plant: 250 Fission
    Armor: Hardened
    Armament:
    1 Anti-Missile System
    1 Large Laser
    Cost: 2,455,500 N-bills

    Overview
    The Guardian II was designed to be a larger and more powerful successor to the venerable Guardian, carrying twice the payload. However, it is roughly three times the cost of the original Guardian, is difficult to fly, and struggles with intercepting higher-speed fighters, which has limited its popularity.

    Capabilities
    The Guardian II was designed to be a larger and more powerful successor to the venerable Guardian. It is slower and more durable, mounting six tons of hardened armor. Known as the "Angel" to distinguish it from its older cousin, the Guardian II has roughly three times the unit cost of its older cousin while having similar fixed firepower, a much larger internal and external payload, and 17% less acceleration. While the Guardian must choose between either having 1.5 tons of additional fuel or an electronics warfare suite or an active probe or an anti-missile system, the Angel's standard payload includes all four of these things.

    A later stealth variant of the Angel reduces the total level of protection in half by carrying three tons of stealth armor. Two heat sinks are added to accommodate the stealth systems, and the large laser is replaced by eight SRM tubes with two tons of SRM ammunition.

    A rare stealth variant of the Angel that was produced in limited quantities before the introduction of the Phantom and after the introduction of the Hammer. This rare variant uses a more advanced Chameleon Light Polarization System combined with the hardened armor of the non-stealth version and ten SRM tubes.

    Type: Guardian II ("Angel")
    Technology Base: Inner Sphere (Standard)
    Tonnage: 50
    Battle Value: 420


    Equipment Mass
    Engine
    250 Fission​
    22​
    Safe Thrust:
    5​
    Max Thrust:
    7​
    Structural Integrity:
    5​
    Heat Sinks:
    8​
    3​
    Fuel:
    720​
    4.5​
    Cockpit:
    5​
    Armor Factor:
    48​
    6​


    Armor
    Value
    Nose
    14​
    Wings
    12/12​
    Aft
    10​


    Weapons
    and Ammo​
    		 Location Tonnage Heat SRV MRV LRV ERV
    Large Laser
    NOS​
    5​
    		 8 8 8 0 0
    AMS ammo (12)
    FSLG​
    1​
    		 - - - - -
    Active Probe
    FSLG​
    1.5​
    		 - - - - -
    ECM Suite
    FSLG​
    1.5​
    		 - - - - -
    Anti-Missile System​
    AFT​
    0.5​
    		 1 3 0 0 0
    Hammer Aero
    Mass: 50 tons
    Frame: Unknown
    Power Plant: 200 Fission
    Armor: Vehicular Stealth
    Armament:
    1 AC/10
    Cost: 2,373,000 C-bills

    Overview
    The Hammer was Nukashuba's first stealth aircraft. It has since been superceded by the Phantom, which is faster and is significantly more difficult to detect.

    Capabilities
    The Hammer is a slow-moving stealth aircraft that relies on a heavy nose-mounted autocannon for its main firepower. While it has external hardpoints usable for external munitions, the Hammer's sluggish handling is already difficult enough without a full external load of munitions, so it is usually deployed with half-loaded or empty hardpoints.

    Deployment
    The limited demand for ground attack aircraft and the sluggish handling of the Hammer in trials led to a short and limited production run. Only half a dozen diocese militias utilize Hammers at this point in time, and while technically not marked as obsolete by the federal army, it has not been in production since several years before the Phantom project was announced.

    Type: Hammer
    Technology Base: Inner Sphere (Experimental)
    Tonnage: 50
    Battle Value: 453


    Equipment Mass
    Engine
    200 Fission​
    15​
    Safe Thrust:
    4​
    Max Thrust:
    6​
    Structural Integrity:
    5​
    Heat Sinks:
    10​
    5​
    Fuel:
    720​
    4.5​
    Cockpit:
    5​
    Armor Factor (Vehicular Stealth):
    48​
    3​


    Armor
    Value
    Nose
    18​
    Wings
    10/10​
    Aft
    10​


    Weapons
    and Ammo​
    		 Location Tonnage Heat SRV MRV LRV ERV
    AC/10
    NOS​
    12​
    		 3 10 10 0 0
    Active Probe
    RWG​
    1.5​
    		 - - - - -
    CASE
    FSLG​
    0.5​
    		 - - - - -
    AC/10 Ammo (20)
    FSLG​
    2​
    		 - - - - -
    ECM Suite
    LWG​
    1.5​
    		 - - - - -
    Phantom Aerofighter
    Mass:     50 tons
    Power Plant: 250 Fission
    Armor: Standard
    Armament:
    2 Small Laser
    Cost: 4,721,875 N-bills

    Overview
    The Phantom aerofighter is the premier stealth combat aircraft of the Nukashuban military forces. It is both the newest and most expensive aerial vehicle in active service militias, costing roughly twice as much as the Guardian II and Hammer aerofighters, and as much as five accessorized Guardian aerofighters.

    Capabilities
    With a Null Signature System, Chameleon Light Polarization System, and a full electronics warfare suite, the Phantom is extraordinarily difficult to detect or target. The fixed secondary armament consists of a pair of small lasers; like all conventional fighters, it can carry bombs or air-to-air missiles at the cost of additional speed, although it does so in an internal bay rather than an external set of hardpoints in order to maintain its stealth characteristics. The craft is limited by the fact that a full munitions load can reduce its top operating speed by nearly 40%; thus, in an interceptor role loaded with air-to-air missiles, it is limited in its ability to perform high-speed interceptions.

    Type: Phantom
    Technology Base: Mixed (Experimental)
    Tonnage: 50
    Battle Value: 313


    Equipment Mass
    Engine
    250 Fission​
    22​
    Safe Thrust:
    5​
    Max Thrust:
    8​
    Structural Integrity:
    5​
    Heat Sinks:
    18​
    13​
    Fuel:
    480​
    3​
    Cockpit:
    5​
    Armor Factor (Vehicular Stealth):
    48​
    3​


    Armor
    Value
    Nose
    16​
    Wings
    11/11​
    Aft
    10​


    Weapons
    and Ammo​
    		 Location Tonnage Heat SRV MRV LRV ERV
    Small Laser
    RWG​
    0.5​
    		 1 3 0 0 0
    Active Probe
    FSLG​
    1.5​
    		 - - - - -
    ECM Suite
    FSLG​
    1.5​
    		 - - - - -
    Small Laser
    LWG​
    0.5​
    		 1 3 0 0 0
    NSS
    All​
    0​
    10​
    CLPS
    All​
    0​
    6​
     
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  • Informational
    • >premier fighter
    >two SLs

    ...I am concerned. I mean yeah, you can neither find nor hit the thing, but ouch. And three tons of armor? How much internal weapon space does it have?
     
    DaLintyGuy said:
    >premier fighter
    >two SLs

    ...I am concerned. I mean yeah, you can neither find nor hit the thing, but ouch. And three tons of armor? How much internal weapon space does it have?
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    Silversun17 said:
    I'm assuming for my sanity it's using canon hard point rules because then it makes sense as an atmo only stealth bomber.
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    Yes. So enough for ten one-ton bombs ...provided you don't mind your maximum thrust going down from a modest 8 to a sluggish 5.
     
    ...so who's the bloody idiot that decided to install stealth systems on a fighter that only has close range weapons where the stealth systems would be the least effective?
     
    Silversun17 said:
    Stealth means you might survive going that slow.


    Wait a second do these birds not get the +2 mp asf normally get? Because under normal rules a 250 should get them a 7/11 mp.
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    Yeah. Conventional fighters are like that. There are a few upsides to conventional fighters, but mostly ASFs are just better. For what it's worth, these are the lovely sorts of conventional fighters that would be recorded in Papolris military history books as benchmarks for comparison:
    So you can see why the Shologar and Shilone made such an impression that there are two rival projects (one from the fleet, one from the army) trying to duplicate them.
     
    Both are kind terrifying compared to what we have in comparison, outside of the fact that they are both functional aerospace platforms, they are faster and more heavily armed and armored and use neural helmets to assist in piloting. Really the only advantage we got is stealth, and that only goes so far.

    That being said just getting a aerospace fighter rather than a conventional one off the ground would be a great start even if you have to use fission. A 85 ton Aerospace fighter at 6/9 is possible with a 27 ton 340 Fusion Engine and with 55 tons left over for everything else. 53.5 if the 345 engine has be used instead. At that point about half that needs to be armor, 20 tons, 5 tons for fuel which leaves 28.5 For payload. You can cram in some decent, but great, stuff into that and with stealth it would pretty dangerous.
     
    Gmerguy said:
    Both are kind terrifying compared to what we have in comparison, outside of the fact that they are both functional aerospace platforms, they are faster and more heavily armed and armored and use neural helmets to assist in piloting. Really the only advantage we got is stealth, and that only goes so far.

    That being said just getting a aerospace fighter rather than a conventional one off the ground would be a great start even if you have to use fission. A 85 ton Aerospace fighter at 6/9 is possible with a 27 ton 340 Fusion Engine and with 55 tons left over for everything else. 53.5 if the 345 engine has be used instead. At that point about half that needs to be armor, 20 tons, 5 tons for fuel which leaves 28.5 For payload. You can cram in some decent, but great, stuff into that and with stealth it would pretty dangerous.
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    Do note that the army fighters aren't the only Nukushuban combat small craft. I don't believe we've seen designs, but we know the Fleet does have 'starfighters'. Over 100 tons, probably fusion powered.
     
    So.... How about we add a 2nd Head to our Ettin?

    Cockpit as the 1st Head.

    Second Head above it and a Turret essentially.

    We can use it for Anti Infantry/Anti Air and as an Anti Missile System.

    One Head above the other Head.

    O
    O

    Like that from the Front.

    O
    _O

    Like that from the side, with the Cockpit lower and forwards.
     
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    Silversun17 said:
    Holy shit those desgins are garbage. I mean 5/8 with 2 small lasers on a 50 ton platform?
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    Also, armor that compares unfavorably to the fucking Cheetah, one of the least armored interceptors in the Inner Sphere. It's better than a Thrush, but that suicide sled is flimsier than a 15 ton Flea mech.

    Even accounting for the inefficiency of fission plants (which normally cannot physically work with ASF as those use fusion torches), 3 tons of armor is criminally underarmored on anything with less than safe thrust 10. Heck, the fucking Centurion is that fast and maneuverable and has 7.5 tons of standard armor.

    Typical 50 ton ASF have 10-12.5 tons of armor.
     
    TheOmnimercurial said:
    So.... How about we add a 2nd Head to our Ettin?

    Cockpit as the 1st Head.

    Second Head above it and a Turret essentially.

    We can use it for Anti Infantry/Anti Air and as an Anti Missile System.

    One Head above the other Head.

    O
    O

    Like that from the Front.

    O
    _O

    Like that from the side, with the Cockpit lower and forwards.
    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...

    Just stick a turret on the shoulder and call it a day.
     
    inirlan said:
    Also, armor that compares unfavorably to the fucking Cheetah, one of the least armored interceptors in the Inner Sphere. It's better than a Thrush, but that suicide sled is flimsier than a 15 ton Flea mech.

    Even accounting for the inefficiency of fission plants (which normally cannot physically work with ASF as those use fusion torches), 3 tons of armor is criminally underarmored on anything with less than safe thrust 10. Heck, the fucking Centurion is that fast and maneuverable and has 7.5 tons of standard armor.

    Typical 50 ton ASF have 10-12.5 tons of armor.
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    Click to shrink...
    FWIW, the limit for conventional fighters is 1 point of armor per ton. The regular and stealth-armored versions of the Guardian are at the limit (technically wasting 0.125 tons by design rules); the rest of the designs are all within 2 points of the limit.

    The ones utilizing hardened armor, i.e., the Guardian II and one of the two rare Guardian variants, violate the official construction rules by doing so, but hardened armor is on your tech list and hadn't gotten used on anything yet.
     
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    tomwritestuff said:
    FWIW, the limit for conventional fighters is 1 point of armor per ton. The regular and stealth-armored versions of the Guardian are at the limit (technically wasting 0.125 tons by design rules); the rest of the designs are all within 2 points of the limit.

    The ones utilizing hardened armor, i.e., the Guardian II and one of the two rare Guardian variants, violate the official construction rules by doing so, but hardened armor is on your tech list and hadn't gotten used on anything yet.
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    Ah sorry, didn't see they were conventional fighters. I am dumb.

    Although conventional fighters were always somewhat yikes in my book. Mostly because of that armor limit. I just can't deal with their paper armor compared to ASF.

    And that's speaking as someone who values conventional ground forces equally with mechs. Including regular bog standard PBI.
     
    If we do an urban combat model mech I'm a fan of a double ML and 1 MG turret on each shoulder.

    Edit: or an LRM turret on each so it can indirect fire in any direction at any time.
     
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    uh, is anyone going to vote on something? are there other plans than mine? Guys?
    ...Given that i see no movement on anything i guess i will just post my plan and vote for it?

    [X] Plan Smart & Practical v1

    Rebecca
    -[X] Provide her with some general intersystem travel material, tourism/history/etc. Being who you are you should have some personal materials lying around, and it being personally yours should shoot down any belief that its fake. Hell throw in your dissertation will your at it, cause why not, its not like it will hurt. If possible, safely let her out of the dome (not the base, just the dome, and only with the right safety measures taken) on a clear night to see the sky. Also try and reachout to her on a personal level a bit more, maybe if you share more about yourself she will share more about herself beyond mechs?

    -[X] Continue working, with the Ettin
    --[X] Attempt to eliminate Poor targeting, short, Re-roll 4 times if necessary
    --[X] Attempt to eliminate Exposed weapon linkage (medium lasers), Re-roll 4 times if necessary
    --[X] Eliminate Cowl and Weak head armor (2).
     
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    That seems like a good plan for Rebecca, though I have an addendum.

    Rebecca
    -[X] Provide her with some general intersystem travel material, tourism/history/etc. Being who you are you should have some personal materials lying around, and it being personally yours should shoot down any belief that its fake. Hell throw in your dissertation will your at it, cause why not, its not like it will hurt. If possible, safely let her out of the dome (not the base, just the dome, and only with the right safety measures taken) on a clear night to see the sky. Also try and reachout to her on a personal level a bit more, maybe if you share more about yourself she will share more about herself beyond mechs?
    --[X] Try to get her to have an assignment for the demonstration - though not in the cockpit of Ettin.

    I have some differences with the engineering plan though! I don't like setting low budgets on must-have aspects, even if they're probably adequate. (Yes, my plan allocates more points than we actually have, but the rules on handling that are clear and seem fine.)

    -[X] Ettin aggressive cleanup.
    --[X] Attempt to re-engineer Exposed weapon linkage (medium lasers), Re-roll 8 times if necessary
    --[X] Attempt to re-engineer Poor targeting, short, Re-roll 8 times if necessary
    --[X] Attempt to re-engineer Weak Head Armor, roll up to 4 times.

    -[X] If the weapon linkage and targeting quirks are gone, declare Ettin ready for demonstration!
    --[X] Try to include subjecting Ettin to a heavy SRM bombardment - at least 4x SRM 6, not all simultaneous.
     
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