Ghostdevil
The Devil of Ghosts
- Location
- United States
[X] Pyotr Leopold Schöffer
Twilight of Europa - Cancelled
- Thread starter Ojou-Sama
- Start date
ConfusedCanuck
Where did it all go wrong?
- Location
- Neverland
[X] Pyotr Leopold Schöffer
I'm sorry but I am not putting a guy in charge of our military who has divided loyalties and would create divided loyalties in our Army. An Army we just purged of questionable loyalties. The Military is suppose to be loyal to the ruling government and no one else.
And anyways with the Vote of No Confidence failed we have time to get the GNVP on board with us we don't need to select Otto to do so, there's no need to give them this catspaw when we can work them politically.
I'm sorry but I am not putting a guy in charge of our military who has divided loyalties and would create divided loyalties in our Army. An Army we just purged of questionable loyalties. The Military is suppose to be loyal to the ruling government and no one else.
And anyways with the Vote of No Confidence failed we have time to get the GNVP on board with us we don't need to select Otto to do so, there's no need to give them this catspaw when we can work them politically.
AegisCollector
Full of Inappropriate Glee
- Location
- North East USA
Is it really an SV quest if we don't dance on the edge of warcrime???
[X] Pyotr Leopold Schöffer
[X] Pyotr Leopold Schöffer
SirLagginton
Shadow Cabal Caerbannog Bun-Bun
- Location
- Arrrghhh
[X] Otto Geule Remister
Allow me to disagree with the popular sentiment here. While not our best option for purging every absolute last bit of corruption, Otto is well aware that the reputation of our armed forces has taken a hit and his reputation in the position will hinge on his performance rooting it out. He won't half-ass this, just not go to the frankly Stalinist extremes of Schöffer. Just as importantly, the man is a proven field commander, which is a strength that none of the others bring to the fold. And we've been getting ominous hints that we may be dragged into violence soon, that 1 turn weakening resulting from the purge may likely in fact hit us while we're weakest and exacerbate our current problems.
Allow me to disagree with the popular sentiment here. While not our best option for purging every absolute last bit of corruption, Otto is well aware that the reputation of our armed forces has taken a hit and his reputation in the position will hinge on his performance rooting it out. He won't half-ass this, just not go to the frankly Stalinist extremes of Schöffer. Just as importantly, the man is a proven field commander, which is a strength that none of the others bring to the fold. And we've been getting ominous hints that we may be dragged into violence soon, that 1 turn weakening resulting from the purge may likely in fact hit us while we're weakest and exacerbate our current problems.
- Pronouns
- He/Him
[X] Julius Ernhard Terhuve von Bluschvith
ConfusedCanuck
Where did it all go wrong?
- Location
- Neverland
I think I'm more glad for this Military Crit then the one last turn this one massively saves us time in cleaning up the military and allows us to skip several steps on a Army reform tree, which is great because I think it's safe to say none of us expected corruption in the Army since the intro said they were loyal.
And this Purge not only has removed said rot but thanks to the crit has also replaced/will replace those officers with excellent commanders that don't have questionable loyalties. Overall this means it saves us time for our build up for war against well Valois and the Federation.
I say let our enemy's fight each other as we nurse our strength for round 3 and most importantly let's not do anything hastily our Army needs new gear and more everything, Our Navy needs time to build there Ships and our Air Force only has one squadron at the moment. Frankly war next turn is not possible we still need time and to short our our internal problems still.
And this Purge not only has removed said rot but thanks to the crit has also replaced/will replace those officers with excellent commanders that don't have questionable loyalties. Overall this means it saves us time for our build up for war against well Valois and the Federation.
This is wrong to a degree here there are hints of violence yes, but that's within Valois and the Federation and while the QM has said there will be an option to prepare for war next turn no where did she say we would be "dragged" into a conflict. And given the state of our military I at least have no intention of preparing for war next turn we are not ready at all I'm far more content to let our enemy's fight between themselves with if possible some egging from our intelligence service(which we can now use thanks to the VoNC failing) to ensure they don't look our way.
I say let our enemy's fight each other as we nurse our strength for round 3 and most importantly let's not do anything hastily our Army needs new gear and more everything, Our Navy needs time to build there Ships and our Air Force only has one squadron at the moment. Frankly war next turn is not possible we still need time and to short our our internal problems still.
[X] Otto Geule Remister
SirLagginton
Shadow Cabal Caerbannog Bun-Bun
- Location
- Arrrghhh
Bluntly there is no indication that Valois and the Federation are the belligerents in whatever conflict is happening. Valois cut their ties to the Federation, that is a world away from a declaration of war. It's far more likely that whatever is happening is something to do with our next door neighbours, and that whatever they are doing isn't necessarily going to give us time to take advantage of it. Perfect is the enemy of good, and frankly as a rear line commander with a nonexistent record outside of purging his subordinates I think Schöffer is very, very far from perfect.
ConfusedCanuck
Where did it all go wrong?
- Location
- Neverland
I should clarify I did meant that Valois and the Federation where fighting each other merely that those two where/are the most likely to have a brewing situation on hand.
The thing is yes perfect is the enemy of Good but our armed forces aren't at good there barely above poor they are not ready for a war next turn given we are still rolling out vehicles for the army and at the moment the Navy has no Navy to use! Let alone the fact we just established an Air force! There is no way we could take advantage of anything anyway given the state of our Nation right now. We still have several internal problems brewing as well, we can not at this stage get involved in anything right now perhaps in 3-5 turns but not right now, we can not at this stage get into a fight we are just not ready.
And frankly for our Chief of the Army we don't need some frontline general in command and as I said before I am not letting GNVP gain influence in our Army after we just purged it from all it's corruption this turn. Especially since now that the VoNC failed we can take our time to court them we no longer need to rush into this.
And I never said Schoffer is perfect no one is and if Schoffer is less then perfect then Otto is worse so! He brings into the Army divided Loyalties! And the last thing we want in our Army is divided loyalties especially at this junction.
Ojou-Sama
[Verified GFL enjoyer]
- Location
- A variety of states and nations
This is a good analysis of the situation, I must admit. While Schöffer has some experience with combat, as his rank can attest to, Otto is more experienced with modern warfare - Schöffer has been mostly a paper-pusher following his promotion from Colonel onwards, while Otto has participated in field exercises, drills and has kept the 2. Panzergrenadier-Division filled with capable soldiers, while Schöffer has liasioned with the General Army Staff - and built a friendship with Otto in the process, which is why the both of 'em have thrown in their hat with the government.
Schöffer...he is known as the Bloody Butcher for a reason. During the 1938 May Mutinies, and the last year of the War, there were common sayings circulating around his part of the front, one of which went like this: "Every man in this area knows that he may die at the front, but will inevitably die in the rear". This one was thanks to a series of brutal measures to cut down on soldiers going AWOL and deserting: If a soldier was discovered away from the frontline, without explicit orders to be there, and if a court-martial found them guilty, they would be hanged from the nearest tree - and while this did cut down on desertion, it did not really...appeal Schöffer to the common soldiery, suffice to say.
But both Remister and von Bluschvith bring with them their own baggage - no option is perfect, and no option is without consequence for the Reichswehr as a whole.
Not all is what it seems in this quest, and one needs to read between the lines to get to the truth - and discover underlying motives and/or happenings. It is so with the political parties who have their own agency, and functions like a fog of war: Not all information is available to you, the Chancellor, and sometimes, reading earlier scenes and events can be very helpful in getting information on present events. Take Remister for example...but that would be spoiling things. Suffice to say, all options have their cons, all options have their pro's, all options have their consequences.
Speaking about perceptions and a lack of information, this is why I encourage everyone to ping/quote me if things are confusing/unclear. This is not an instance of "trolling creator" either!
If someone is justifying war on Germania, or if there are increased tensions between nations, there will be an obvious alert about who, where, and why, and there will be a chance to prepare... but then again, what I said earlier still applies, and it especially applies to future wars: If the nation does not know of war plans made against them, it cannot respond to them adequately, and if a nation is preparing a first strike without a declaration of war, or if it comes without any warning and is hidden from the intelligence agencies, the preparations will naturally be less effective and pose less of an obstacle to enemy forces.
Suffice to say, I have learned my lesson from allowing you guys to collapse the galactic economy, steal thousands of scientists and former officers, repair an almost Base Delta Zero'd Kamino from devastated to unblemished within a month, and creating a powerful faction within a two-month long timeframe. Intelligence options will obviously be available, but won't be as...to be honest, overpowered.
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SirLagginton
Shadow Cabal Caerbannog Bun-Bun
- Location
- Arrrghhh
Let me clarify, while we're not ready for war, that does not mean war will come to us regardless. And having, as said by the GM, an inexperienced pencil-pusher with no experience in flag command is asking for a disaster. Schöffer is the Stalinist option. Good for ensuring political loyalty, not so much for building a functional army.
This insistent claim that Otto possesses divided loyalties is baffling. He's noted as a patriot who has been staunchly against the breaking of the oaths of the old guard, and the GNVP supporting him as their preferred candidate does not mean they have some sort of hold over him. He has the loyalty of the troops while morale is at its lowest. And let me make this very clear, appointing the "Bloody Butcher" to a position where he gets to purge the entire armed forces would be swell for anti-corruption, but it will also be a buckshot option where our institutional expertise and morale will get caught in the crossfire. Our army will become much less effective and morale will tank, even if the worst of it will be over within the turn. Our soldiers will also hate us in turn for appointing the man to the position.
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ConfusedCanuck
Where did it all go wrong?
- Location
- Neverland
I am awful at reading between the lines I should warn you of this now, But I do know the Army is not in great shape but it is in a sight better now that the corruption is out in the open and being worked on. But it still needs to be worked on.
I am confident at this stage that no "major" power has any reason to declare war on us at this stage given the state we are in. So we should be fine at this moment.
Good to know I briefly followed that quest and the reason I left it because things happened to fast in a two month time frame even in star wars it was to a degree quite silly even for a quest.
Schoffer is not a mere pencil pushing the QM said he earned his rank just like otto and here is the direct quto from the QM about them.
Neither are perfect here both bring there own faults and strengths to the position and most importantly they both are equally qualified for the promotion since both are options we can choose from. And Schoffer while harsh is not a "Stalinist option" he will search for all corruption he can find and have it tried in Military court not shoot anyone he finds suspicious ironically that sounds more like the third option. He would go for the harshest punishment but only on those found guilty and are thus traitors anyway.
Nowhere does it say this for him if it did then yes I would be inclined to vote differently if that was the case but this is merely an assumption, If something like that would happen if we picked him the QM would inform us since that would be massive effect to happen to the army.
SirLagginton
Shadow Cabal Caerbannog Bun-Bun
- Location
- Arrrghhh
You're misinterpreting the QM's statement. Schoffer earned his rank as a bureaucrat, but that does not mean he has any experience in flag command or is suitable for the position we're offering him.
And dude, he is literally called the Bloody Butcher for massacring his own soldiers on disciplinary grounds. I don't know how else the QM supposed to communicate that the resulting purge will be vicious and brutal and will have a massive deleterious effect on the army. There's no such thing as a perfect option, but certainly there are preferable ones.
It is all a logical extrapolation from the man's reputation. But since you're so insistent on word of @Ojou-Sama, we can ask her. Am I deducing reasonable outcomes of the situation based on the information you have given us?
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ConfusedCanuck
Where did it all go wrong?
- Location
- Neverland
I seriously doubt the QM would give a character like that as an option since we as players would never pick someone like that we'd rather put him/her on trail for war crimes then(heck I would be part of that group).
But if you want to ask the QM sure I've done such the same in the past and naturally I'll respect whatever the QM says about him.
But I can already guess he is not that bad darker reputation yes not a full on monster merely extremely disciplinary and harass when maintaining military law and discipline.
[X] Pyotr Leopold Schöffer
He's a military officer who put down civilian riots, I very much doubt that was peaceful and that guns weren't used and civilians killed.
ConfusedCanuck
Where did it all go wrong?
- Location
- Neverland
And in the very first turn intro we saw/read a military unit open fire on a rioting crowd of civilians fact is this time period is very chaotic time so that isn't too uncommon anyway. Though still bad of course but unfortunately not uncommon.
And again the QM would not give us a option so monstrous that none of us would chose him. Yes he's not perfect but none of the options are and as the QM said all of them bring strengths and weakness to the position, the QM would not give us an option that only brought negatives or problems to the Army that would be in bad faith.
Edit I'm honestly tempted to just vote for the third option and wash my hands of both of them.
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- Location
- New York
- Pronouns
- He/Him
[X] Julius Ernhard Terhuve von Bluschvith
- Pronouns
- Reader
Part of what we did with this turn was pull the GNVP sort of in our corner in return for promising to grant them certain concessions and allow them some influence on government policy. This is simply one such concession, and unlike some of the ones we might end up making, this one actually rewards us with a competent underling who will have some appreciation for what did, which likely furthers our pull with the GNVP.
If we have any intention of making good on our agreements with them and building a genuine report to bring them into the grand coalition this is a good start. It helps that their first opponents might well be their former allies the ZP Remnants. For now, lets take every feasible option to turn them into true Coalition members.
[X] Otto Geule Remister
- Location
- his hidden lair
[X] Otto Geule Remister
Frankly- I view Otto's political connections to be something of a good thing. He firmly brings the GNVP into our camp- and the recent reveal of military corruption forces him to keep things largely clean. The Esprit de Corp that this corruption hid behind is still there, a lot of our Reichswehr wants to be loyal- and the rank and file soldiers and the civilians are liable to scream bloody murder the moment things get fishy again.
The best way for Remister to get what he want's is to prove the GNVP is reliable and capable of getting into our tent. The easiest way to alienate the GNVP and Remister, is dismissing the most competent man who explicitly wants the post badly- because he has ties to the GNVP. He will not have the latitude from above or below to just cram the army full of monarchists preparing to launch a coup. All of his legitimacy, and that of military is now tied to them actually honoring the oath they swore to.
Frankly- I view Otto's political connections to be something of a good thing. He firmly brings the GNVP into our camp- and the recent reveal of military corruption forces him to keep things largely clean. The Esprit de Corp that this corruption hid behind is still there, a lot of our Reichswehr wants to be loyal- and the rank and file soldiers and the civilians are liable to scream bloody murder the moment things get fishy again.
The best way for Remister to get what he want's is to prove the GNVP is reliable and capable of getting into our tent. The easiest way to alienate the GNVP and Remister, is dismissing the most competent man who explicitly wants the post badly- because he has ties to the GNVP. He will not have the latitude from above or below to just cram the army full of monarchists preparing to launch a coup. All of his legitimacy, and that of military is now tied to them actually honoring the oath they swore to.
- Pronouns
- Erd
[X] Pyotr Leopold Schöffer
ThatGuyWithIdeas
Treize died for our sins
- Location
- Romania
[X] Otto Geule Remister