The Twin Holds: A Dwarf Karak Quest. (Warhammer Fantasy)

argenten · Oct 25, 2021

BelligerentGnu said:
....I'm sorry, I completely fail to see why that precludes offering a moderate position.

Because you're dealing with a binary situation in terms of how Engineering is handled. There is no "Moderate" faction, you are either Conservative or Radical, for good or ill, because that's how the dwarves in WHF work. They either do things as they have been, or risk it for the biscuit.

Mayto said:
That's the status quo path though. We've seen her open up to experimenting with chemistry. Bending a few rules and pulling some strings to let you 'field test' equipment.

Your choice is to let her just develop and do what she is doing rn. Or give her a push and tell her to go all out. Try and have her do whatever the hell she wants to make, and let nobody stop her.

So there's not even a serious loss if we *don't* go the radical path, just 'not as much gained' which is perfectly fine. I legit don't see any bad options here in terms of what to do, just want arguments for or against presented honestly.

IronFist · Oct 25, 2021

BelligerentGnu said:
....I'm sorry, I completely fail to see why that precludes offering a moderate position.

Are the technology levels really that far apart?

The conservative option seems to give us "Next generation" from what we currently have, while the radical option gives "Grandchildren's generation". And the fundamentalist option (unavailable) would have kept us at normal crossbows.

BelligerentGnu · Oct 25, 2021

IronFist said:
Are the technology levels really that far apart?

The conservative option seems to give us "Next generation" from what we currently have, while the radical option gives "Grandchildren's generation". And the fundamentalist option (unavailable) would have kept us at normal crossbows.

Less about the tech for me than helping Vikki develop a healthy mindset.

Mayto · Oct 25, 2021

@BelligerentGnu does my explanation earlier put things into context?

IronFist · Oct 25, 2021

BelligerentGnu said:
Less about the tech for me than helping Vikki develop a healthy mindset.

I'm going to vote to stick to the Southern guild tenets too, but what's the middle road you see between the two options?
One where she innovates in a workshop but doesn't distribute?

Fanhunter696 · Oct 25, 2021

Mayto said:
That's the status quo path though. It is the moderate path. Kraka Drak closed off the true hardcore conservative patb.

We've seen her open up to experimenting with chemistry. Bending a few rules and pulling some strings to let you 'field test' equipment. Making lever action crossbows.

Your choice is to let her just develop and do what she is doing rn. Or give her a push and tell her to go all out. Try and have her do whatever the hell she wants to make, and let nobody stop her.

@Mayto if I understand this correctly, since she is no longer hyper conservative, even if we choose that she doesn't go full radical, we we will be able to buy from Zhufbar some of their "almost finished testing" or "reliable but obscure" designs for our Guild and/or hold (i.e. the blaclwater train, portable mortars or bolthrowers...) and we may produce some of them locally, but she won't try to innovate on her own lab more than that level, and we would lose acces to the "still untested" level of Dwarf tech...

Or I am reading this the wrong way?

Mayto · Oct 25, 2021

Fanhunter696 said:
@Mayto if I understand this correctly, since she is no longer hyper conservative, even if we choose that she doesn't go full radical, we can eventually buy from Zhufbar some of their "almost finished testing" or "reliable but obscure" designs for our Guild and/or hold (i.e. the blaclwater train, portable mortars or bolthrowers...) and we may produce some of them locally, but she won't try to innovate on her own lab more than that level, and we would lose acces to the "still untested" level of Dwarf tech...

Or I am reading this the wrong way?

Pretty much that, yeah.

BelligerentGnu · Oct 25, 2021

Mayto said:
Depends.

An engineer with a pneumatic crossbow is radical, but not insanely so. Producing loads of them to hand to non-engineers is pretty fucking radical.

Two dwarf portable mortars aren't radical at all. Just not very common.

That's the status quo path though. It is the moderate path. Kraka Drak closed off the true hardcore conservative patb.

We've seen her open up to experimenting with chemistry. Bending a few rules and pulling some strings to let you 'field test' equipment. Making lever action crossbows.

Your choice is to let her just develop and do what she is doing rn. Or give her a push and tell her to go all out. Try and have her do whatever the hell she wants to make, and let nobody stop her.

Ah! Ok, nvm. I'd missed this. And yes, it does help. I was reading the second option as far more reactionary than that.

In that case, I'm in wholehearted approval of the moderate option, for the reasons DragonParadox has so eloquently listed.

Gul Damar · Oct 25, 2021

Mayto said:
This is probably the biggest shame option you're gonna get for a while. Don't worry there.

Sure if options is the only way to get them, but haven't we also incurred shame points from crit fails?

Max Uristwell · Oct 25, 2021

Mayto said:
This is probably the biggest shame option you're gonna get for a while. Don't worry there.

I believe you when you say that you won't be giving us any large shame-inducing choices - but as Gul Damar said, that's a very optimistic statement to make in a dice-based story. Especially since the dice straight-up killed Gotri once already. They're not fucking around!

Also, I'll take the already-testing lever-action and anti-material crossbows over the promise of a semi-automatic crossbow or portable workshop any day of the week, because this is a quest and AP Hell is a thing. And it reduces the chance of us losing our Engineer.

Nurgle · Oct 25, 2021

Boo boo I want less character crisis of faith and more blood of my enemies. But anyways I think we should go for the conservative path because even the conservative stuff the dawi currently have are incredibly dangerous. Also I feel like going radical on engineering is not for us. We should go radical for culture like marriages, children, and other ways to increase our numbers.

thefoolswriter · Oct 25, 2021

I wonder if we could get our hands on a trollhammer as a mobile monster killer would help

Nurgle · Oct 25, 2021

thefoolswriter said:
I wonder if we could get our hands on a trollhammer as a mobile monster killer would help

Let's start with the basic weapons than go for the big stuff. Also I do not think we could afford it in the short term.

thefoolswriter · Oct 25, 2021

Nurgle said:
Let's start with the basic weapons than go for the big stuff. Also I do not think we could afford it in the short term.

Indeed but the image of a dwarf gorilla with a rpg makes me smile

Havalt300 · Oct 25, 2021

[X]Encourage Vikki to stay the course:

RandomTechPriest · Oct 25, 2021